You Might Say We're Encouraged to Love: OBI-WAN KENOBI Part 4

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh and joining me today is Murray.

[00:00:06] MURRAY: Oh, hello.

[00:00:07] JOSH: Jonny.

[00:00:08] JONNY: Hello.

[00:00:09] JOSH: And Bracey.

[00:00:11] BRACEY: Hi everybody.

[00:00:12] JOSH: today, we're gonna be talking about part four of Obi-Wan Kenobi, part four, as we mentioned, last time, the show sort of eschews. Am I saying that right? Eschew. Do you know what I'm talking about? has no individual episode titles, which is a bummer, but, but it kind of contributes to the sense of, this is one long movie, which I just read that once the finale, goes live on Disney, plus they're actually releasing this theatrically or they're showing them as like an event theatrically in a theater, which is cool.

[00:00:39] I think. Yeah.

[00:00:42] MURRAY: See it all played out as they would have to do some edit. Right. Because like watching a movie that has like a cliff hanger, every 45 minutes, you'd be like, all

[00:00:50] JOSH: Well, no. So what I think they're just doing so, so from my understanding, I think that they're just showing all six episodes as individual episodes altogether, like one after the other. But, but I digress. We're talking about part four, , Bracey overall thoughts on part four and the show so far.

[00:01:06] BRACEY: Well, th this, um, series, unlike all the other ones, I have been watching with my daughters. And so it has been a trip to, to, to experience this with them and, and it, it, it's actually, uh, I'm getting all the old feelings of watching star wars and discovering star wars with this show, um, in a way that I haven't, I, I didn't think was possible anymore.

[00:01:30] So I'm really, I'm really enjoying this.

[00:01:33] JOSH: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Do you think it's because, you're sharing it, uh, with your daughters?

[00:01:38] BRACEY: Um, yeah, because I like the same way when you watch a movie in the movie theater, like when the, when you have that, like energy that is being shared in the theater and people are reacting together, it changes the experience of whatever it is you're watching. Like, I, I remember, uh, uh, uh, independence day fondly because I saw it in the theater with a bunch of people and it, everybody was like yelling at the screen.

[00:02:00] So moments like in, in this kind of, especially like the ending where, uh, uh, we reveal the bad robot. I don't know if that's like spoilers or skipping to the head. Sorry. Uh, but anyway, um, I guess there's no, no spoiler warnings when

[00:02:14] JOSH: No spoiler warnings.

[00:02:15] JONNY: It's a reaction episode. So

[00:02:17] BRACEY: uh, uh, uh, my girls were like, oh my God, like, you know,

[00:02:21] JOSH: That's so awesome. That's so

[00:02:22] BRACEY: them.

[00:02:23] It hit them so hardcore and they loved it. And I mean, they really loved the whole thing that I was just like, It allowed me to get past the, uh, I don't know, like the, just being done with like, oh, I've seen this all before kind of feeling of anything of star wars of action movies of like plot story, all this stuff.

[00:02:44] It's like, oh yeah, this is awesome. This just, just like settling into the, Hey, this is a fun, awesome ride. And yeah, I, I I've been enjoying it.

[00:02:54] JOSH: totally. I agree. Like I think something that, that comes with age and with seeing a lot of movies and a lot of TV and stuff like you, you kind of can't help, but go into something with your critical and, um, cynical hackles up. Right. So, so it's sort of like a way to short circuit that or disarm. I think that's awesome.

[00:03:13] I think that's really cool.

[00:03:14] BRACEY: yeah. Uh, shout out to Amelie I know she's, she's listening right now.

[00:03:19] JOSH: hi, Amelie. Jonny, your reaction to episode four.

[00:03:23] JONNY: Um, I really enjoyed watching it. I watched it twice. Um, the second time I actually liked them more. Uh, but I, I feel like there was, there were things about it that I thought were a little bit like redundant, cuz I feel like they, they touched upon similar plot points. Like, oh, like we have to rescue Leia again.

[00:03:43] And it's like, oh, we just did that. Now they're gonna do it again and stuff like that. But the feeling of it and the uh, the, the urgency of it, I still really like, I mean, I, I'm just, I'm just a big fan of this show. And um, and I, I like the aspect of, uh, Obi-Wan getting his mojo back in this episode, which I thought was kind of cool, but, uh, we could talk about it after we get, uh, Mary's impressions, but I feel like, um, some of the things that were done in this, and I think I texted both of you about this afterward, I was just kind of like.

[00:04:14] Scratching my head a little bit as to like why the bad guys were doing what they were doing. And like, I feel like, uh, it's funny, cuz at the beginning of this you were talking about how, uh, they, they're probably gonna release all these episodes like theatrically once they're done with the season finale and watching this episode, it made me think like, should this whole show be a movie?

[00:04:38] Cuz I feel like, uh, the things that they give us are great, but specifically watching the length of the episode that I watched, uh, the last episode I was like, I feel like they're given us like five minutes of information in 45 minutes. And I feel like, uh, this episode probably could have been cut down to maybe like a good 15, 20 minute episode and uh, They could have reorganized some of the things about it.

[00:05:08] But, um, but yeah, that being said, though, I, I thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the second time. I just kinda like go of all that shit. The second time I was like, this is great, you know, but like, but we'll talk about the pacing and I thing after this.

[00:05:20] JOSH: have some thoughts about that as well. But, , first I want to get Murray's general reactions to this.

[00:05:24] MURRAY: well, to, to this episode, overall, this show has been like, it's been hitting me in a very similar way that Bracey was talking about where you're just like, this is like L. Something like I would, even though I'm not, don't want to pin them against each other, but I would say Mandalorian is the better show, but this show is hitting me in ways that Mandalorian didn't at all.

[00:05:47] This is like making me like, think about like life and shit like that. Like it's, uh, where Mandalorian was like, oh, this is a cool ride. I hope nothing bad happens. But this episode did seem a little bit like it was treading water and stuff. Uh, no pun intended, right. For all the swimming and that's in, in ship.

[00:06:02] But like, it was, it seemed like Jonny was saying there's only like five minutes of information. So. And the stuff that I had wrong with, it were like, so nitpicky that it's, it's just played for a comic effect on this show. Like I'm not sitting there, like, this is the fucking worst thing ever, but it's like, I'm like, what is the storm trooper's line of sight?

[00:06:19] Like you see the storm trooper and Obi-Wan in the same shop before Obi-Wan hides, but just like, things like that. And, and they like the woman knocks someone out just like 12 feet behind another person and leaves the body in like plain sights. Like clearly you've never played metal gear solid, but, um, so it, but other than that, I was just like, um, I was like, oh, that's kind of dumb.

[00:06:40] That's kind of dumb. This is the greatest show of all time. That's kind of dumb. Oh no, I love this fucking show. Oh, that's kind of dumb. So it was like, it was on and off and stuff like that. But the scenes that like really hit, uh, far, far, far surpassed any of the minor nitpicky stuff that I, I don't like.

[00:06:56] JONNY: in complete agreement with you? Uh, because I feel like the things that we can nitpick about, uh, after this, I was like, it's fine. Like, I was totally like, it didn't break it for me. I was like, this is, this is like, I still, all the pros of it. I was like, the pros far exceeded the,

[00:07:12] MURRAY: yeah. And I think what I'm, I'm thinking, cuz I don't think that you can make star wars and be like lazy or anything. So I don't think we're seeing stuff that they're not seeing. I think we're looking through it, even though we're going like, no, this isn't really for our age group anymore, but we like it.

[00:07:31] The people making star wars are like, no, the reason why this, the, the, you know, storm troopers have this line of sight is because we need to build tension for Bracey daughters that are watching it and don't understand the fi like, uh, the nuances that adult, uh, you know, 40 year old men are gonna are gonna do.

[00:07:47] Like, so that's gonna make them on edge because when we find out there's a tracking device, we all know that it's on the little on Lola, right? Like that's, you know that before. So the reveal is like redundant, but like

[00:08:00] JOSH: didn't know. I didn't realize until that, shot was lingering and then started to move down and I'm like, oh no shit. It's on the robots on the

[00:08:08] MURRAY: oh, okay. Yeah,

[00:08:10] JOSH: so, so

[00:08:10] MURRAY: like,

[00:08:11] BRACEY: it on her somehow for a second, the way that she set it up, uh, the way that she was like, I, I'm pretty sure it's going to follow him closely wherever he goes or

[00:08:20] MURRAY: yeah. And so like, I think any weakness is like a conscious decision that they go like, no, it's, it's worth like this weaker aspect to build attention for like the younger audience.

[00:08:31] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, I mean, I don't,

[00:08:33] JONNY: go ahead.

[00:08:35] JOSH: no, it's okay. Jenna,

[00:08:37] JONNY: was just gonna say, like some of the, like some of the things that, um, we've talked about, uh, you and I Bernhard, we talked about this in the past about the last Jedi and this has nothing to do with content. I actually like the last Jedi a lot. I think it's the best star sequel that they made.

[00:08:54] Um, that being said, I thought some of the issues of the last Jedi were about like the pacing of the revelations and stuff like that. So there's not enough time to like marinate in the moment of whatever they set up. And I feel like this episode did a little bit of that too, where like specifically what you're referring to Marie, where it's like, she's at her post and some guy's like, uh, you're not supposed to be here.

[00:09:16] We gotta. And you're like, oh no, she got caught. And then literally a second later she like snaps his neck and she's like, I'm back. And it's like, well, why put that in there? you know, like, it's just like, it's like, we know that she's, it's like,

[00:09:28] MURRAY: hitting

[00:09:29] JONNY: it's like, we know, we know that she's undercover. We know that they're like, we don't like, it was like, they, they put the stake in that she could be caught and killed, which I think is good.

[00:09:40] But the way that they, like, they introduce the threat and she so easily takes care of it. And then like when she talks to Reva or Reva and uh, she's like, all right, you might be telling the truth that we're gonna interrogate you. And she has two storm troopers escort her. I'm like, oh, this is gonna be tricky.

[00:09:59] And it wasn't all she had to do was like slap them around a little bit. And then, then she was fine. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, and so yet again, it's nitpicky thing. It's like, I liked on paper, the content of what she had to do. And I liked the idea of like showing her being like this coldblood. Like, uh, like spies at the same time, I was like, this was all done very quickly, very conveniently.

[00:10:23] And I was like, I thought they could have played those moments out longer to make them more hairy. If that

[00:10:28] JOSH: Well, see, see my thing. See, my thing with, um, with each of those near misses for Tala was that, with each new one, it was, it was sort of exposing her more. Right. So, so it was like showing how, she can only maintain this for so long. So, so the first one she tried to walk through the checkpoint and the guard was stopping her and questioning her.

[00:10:48] And

[00:10:48] JONNY: where is there a hall pass? Yeah. yeah.

[00:10:52] JOSH: And she was to bluff her way through it. And then the second one was

[00:10:55] BRACEY: she used their own toxic masculinity

[00:10:58] MURRAY: yes. Yep. I noticed that.

[00:11:00] BRACEY: sorry, sorry, sorry, Bernard. Uh, Josh, uh,

[00:11:03] JONNY: a great moment. I actually like that moment a lot. because they really delve into that. And it was like a strong, long they concentrated on that moment. It wasn't like one second. It was like a scene, you

[00:11:14] JOSH: yeah,

[00:11:15] JONNY: But go ahead.

[00:11:16] JOSH: Oh, no, I mean, I was just gonna say then the second time the guy finds her and, she has to kill him. Right. so, and then you see the body sort of hastily stowed away, like where someone will probably find it relatively quickly.

[00:11:28] MURRAY: Just walking by and looking in the room. Like, it's not, it's just like in the middle of the floor right behind the other people,

[00:11:35] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:11:35] JOSH: I kind of thought he was like, he was sort of under the table and off to the side. I'm not sure, I'm not sure, but it doesn't matter. The point is. And then,

[00:11:42] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:11:43] JOSH: and then, the third one, , when Obi-Wan was like, I need you to make a diversion now. And the only thing she can think of is I'm just gonna walk in her office and say, Hey, and,

[00:11:51] BRACEY: yeah, I don't way.

[00:11:53] JOSH: and like, and basically expose herself.

[00:11:55] And, and, um, so, so I was like, okay. Yeah. So I was like, so because I also watched it twice, the, um, the first time I think I was, running into some of those issues that you were talking about. , but the second time I was just, , really enjoying it, for what it was. And I think it's because the way that, and this isn't the show's fault, but sort of the way that these shows are watched and the way that, you know, a show like this, which is really constructed as one, narrative that's supposed to all go together.

[00:12:29] It's really like a multipart movie. I think the audience, especially the online audience is really looking for those, those, oh shit moments in every single episode, week by week. So the first one, you get the, oh shit, it's Leia. It's not about just protecting Luke. It's about Lea and this is actually an Obi-Wan Leia story.

[00:12:47] And it's like, oh shit, the second one, the yo shit moment is the realization that Obi-Wan has that Anakin is alive. And then the third one is obviously the fight between, Vader and Obi-Wan. And then this one, I think the only thing that this one has to an oh shit moment, for lack of a better term is the reveal of the frozen Jedi in the tomb, right?

[00:13:11] JONNY: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:12] JOSH: but that's sort of like a, it's sort of a plot sort of idea, whereas the other ones are more, , about, about character, right? So, so it sort of hits you less in the feels, to borrow a term. I'm just really curious where that plot thread is going. , the idea that, , the empire or the emperor, , is keeping a lot of these Jedi or Force sensitives frozen on ice, , in hibernation, like I wonder if that's something that is going to tie into the story of this show. , or if it's like just a bit of world building that, , may, have something to do with something in another show or movie. Like, I think, I, I think I may have mentioned during the last podcast I wonder if Grogu in The Mandalorian has something, whatever happened to him had something to do with this.

[00:13:59] I

[00:14:00] JONNY: I think so I think this is a, and B what you're talking about. I think this is like, they are going to talk about it more in the show because you can't reveal that and then not

[00:14:09] MURRAY: And also not

[00:14:10] JOSH: I mean, I don't know. I'm not well, yeah. I mean, I'm not sure.

[00:14:13] JONNY: fully. They

[00:14:14] MURRAY: no, but like, cuz they don't yeah. The characters don't know what's going on, but you can't just have him see this and then just be like, oh yeah. Oh, that reminds me, by the way. What's with the frozen Jedi, like, you know, they actually definitely have to make it into a plot point at.

[00:14:29] JOSH: The other thing I just wanna say real quick before we go on is my overall thought the whole episode is totally, , worth it for me for that, that, uh, moment between, , Leia and Obi-Wan at the end on the.

[00:14:39] shuttle,

[00:14:41] JONNY: mm-hmm

[00:14:41] JOSH: they're sort of, you know, wordlessly, connecting and like, I think that they're really forging a strong connection. And I don't know if it's because I'm a father of a daughter now. So it like, it like rewires your brain somehow, but that was for me, the whole thing was worth it.

[00:14:55] Just, to get to that moment for me.

[00:14:58] BRACEY: it was a real moment. One I'd like to say it was a real moment, which was like really awesome to see. Like they really just took time on just holding the hand and it was like, this is, this is great. Uh, yes, it does rewire your brain being a, uh, uh, a father. But, um, uh, I, I also wanted to say like what you were talking about with the, the each time they showed.

[00:15:22] Uh, that, uh, I can't remember the character's name, but, uh, the spy could get caught

[00:15:27] JOSH: Tala, I believe is her name.

[00:15:29] BRACEY: There were, uh, uh, they were ramping up the tension and, and, uh, that something that I kind of viewed the same thing with, uh, Leia being caught originally, it wasn't by the empire

[00:15:41] JOSH: no, it's by those goon.

[00:15:42] BRACEY: uh, by, uh, Reva, like they just narrowly escaped. So now that Reva, uh, uh, caught. Now it's like it ramped it up.

[00:15:51] It's like, like, I think when you're coming from the perspective of like, oh, she's caught, oh, like, yeah. From us, it's like, oh, danger, all that danger is equal. That, that it makes it look like it's the exact same thing. But when you are watching this, not from that perspective of seeing everything before, you're just watching this slow ramp and it's like, and then, uh, the next level of danger could be her running into, uh, uh, Vader and then like it, and like, and the it's like ramped up even more.

[00:16:23] And you know, this familiarity between the two of them because of a new hope. So, uh, uh, like for her to be able to like mouth off to Vader, the way she did does as an

[00:16:34] JOSH: She had some, she had some incredible lines in

[00:16:36] MURRAY: Oh, she was great in, well, she's been great the whole show, but this episode, I was like, this girl is

[00:16:42] JONNY: Yeah. It was. I love that wish. Like, is this a staring contest

[00:16:46] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:16:46] JONNY: that? I love that.

[00:16:48] MURRAY: Yeah. It's uh, I, I think that, um, like I think it was Jonny and, and well, everyone was saying like, the format works better in a movie. Right. Cause if you take something like, um, uh, big trouble in little China, right.

[00:17:01] All they're doing is rescuing people over and over in the, the movie. But like, it works as a whole, but if you were to break each thing up into an episode, you'd be like, oh, another rescue episode. Okay, cool.

[00:17:11] JOSH: The advantage that you have when you split up, what very well, could be a two hour and 15 minute feature in instead of a six part series with episodes? I think I, I think this was the shortest one so far at like

[00:17:24] MURRAY: You have 39 minutes or something like that?

[00:17:26] JOSH: to like, you know, 52, 55 minutes long.

[00:17:29] Um, the advantage of that is you do have the extra time to let those moments breathe. Like you were talking about, , Bracey the moment, , between Obi-Wan and, and Leia, you can really let it, linger. And also, the tension that was, building in this episode, you can sort of watch it and kind of enjoy it and luxuriate in, what it's doing or you can, you know, sort of view it if you're viewing it as a delivery system for new oh, shit moments.

[00:17:57] the first time I was watching it. I was sort of, , watching it that way a little, because you know, we've been waiting for this for so long and every week it's like a, it's like another little morsel and I'm like, like sticking to my veins. I need it. Um, I think that that has the unfortunate side effect of, um, like that's not how you're supposed to be watching this and you're kind of missing what it is doing, , because of your own expectations.

[00:18:22] I actually want to do a whole episode on, um, on expectations and how that affects your. Viewing or feelings about a film? the, uh, mm-hmm

[00:18:32] JONNY: it's, you know, what's really funny, I feel like, like we touched upon this with the empire episode about how that ruined star wars, because star wars became about, oh, shit moments a little bit. And I feel like to me, that's not what star wars is. So I feel like I'm never really looking for an oh shit moment.

[00:18:50] Like I'm just looking for magic. If that makes any sense.

[00:18:53] JOSH: no, well, that's not necessarily what I was what I was saying, wasn't necessarily a response to what you were saying. Like, I'm just saying in general, it's like, I mean, I don't know, like I've been reading a lot on Twitter. I think it was a very, , common, reaction that this was like that this was like a filler episode.

[00:19:08] And I don't think it's a filler episode. Like I'm not even sure what that means in this. In this context,

[00:19:12] MURRAY: why have a filler episode, if you are in charge of how many episodes you're gonna have in the first place.

[00:19:18] JONNY: I could see why people said that

[00:19:20] JOSH: yeah, no,

[00:19:21] JONNY: I understand it cuz I, I felt a little bit of that as well, where I was just like, we saw, like we were talking about before Leia got kidnapped and then busted out by Obi-Wan, an episode in this episode, Leia is captured again and gets busted out by Obi-Wan and it's

[00:19:36] MURRAY: but unless we're

[00:19:37] JONNY: all right.

[00:19:37] Okay.

[00:19:38] MURRAY: was gonna say, but if, if we look at it, oh, go Jonny, go.

[00:19:43] JONNY: well, I was just gonna say like, and also like, um, we were joking about this afterwards through text, but I was like, you know, Reva is interrogating Leia. And it's like, what does she think? Leia knows this 10 year old who doesn't know anything, maybe indirectly. She heard someone in the background mentioned the name of a planet, but it's almost like if she was involved in the CIA operation and somebody in the background mentioned about going to like use Becca Stan or something like that.

[00:20:13] Like, is she gonna remember that? Is she gonna remember the name of the planet? There's like, so, so when she's like, tell me where they are and it's like, why are you interrogating this 10 year old? So hard? You're the one who coed her. She was just playing in the woods in her hometown and you kidnapped her.

[00:20:29] And she's like, tell me everything about the secret conspiracy. And she's like, you, what? It's so, so,

[00:20:34] MURRAY: only involved in the conspiracy because you kidnapped

[00:20:37] JONNY: exactly it wasn't like she's an active agent in this, so it's so

[00:20:41] JOSH: Well, she

[00:20:41] JONNY: so I understand, I understand why people can feel this way about the episode, because it was like, this is just so a weird. thing

[00:20:51] JOSH: well, uh, to be fair about that, she did find her running through the secret, uh, uh, tunnels and

[00:20:58] JONNY: but she was running through the same secret tunnels with her and found the same secret base. So Reva knows all about that. As much as Leia does is what I'm trying to say.

[00:21:05] JOSH: but in the beginning of this, when they're on Jabiim, , Tala says that she knows everything. She can ruin,

[00:21:11] JONNY: Yeah. But that, that, that was written in the script, but at the same time, like, but she doesn't, she's a 10 year old that was brought there for like an hour and

[00:21:20] JOSH: there and she knows that she knows where they're going.

[00:21:23] MURRAY: Well, I think what saying, if, uh, not to like paraphrase what you yourself are saying, but it's like, she she's getting interrogated as if she was an integral part of this network of spies from the beginning. But the only reason she's involved at all is because two days earlier she was kidnapped thrusting her into this.

[00:21:43] So she would have, she would only have knowledge from what she encountered from the moment she was kidnapped until she was interrogated. So it's not

[00:21:51] JONNY: how much information does Reva think that lays paying attention to during this whole traumatizing kidnapping ordeal? So it's almost one

[00:21:58] JOSH: I think that's why she, I think that's why she's interrogating. No,

[00:22:01] MURRAY: I'm like, she wouldn't know anything,

[00:22:03] JONNY: it's like, I, but it's one of those things where it's like, we're, we're nitpicking you right now. But what I'm trying to say is like, for someone who's as smart and as ruthless as someone that's like an inquisitor, it's just like, you have to realize that the information you're gonna get out of her is negligible and she's person.

[00:22:22] JOSH: She's also right though. She knows, the planet that

[00:22:25] JONNY: Yeah. But,

[00:22:28] BRACEY: I, I feel like you're, you're setting it up.

[00:22:31] MURRAY: like

[00:22:31] BRACEY: it up like, that the character shouldn't be as ruthless to this kid, because the assumption is that the kid couldn't have possibly, you don't believe that it's realistic that a kid could have possibly learned as much as she learned two days.

[00:22:48] And, and what I, and like a again, again, you are, again, you guys. Exactly. But like, you guys are completely playing this, like one, this one note perspective of it. Like, and like, if you aren't looking at it through that lens and you're just watching it

[00:23:07] MURRAY: But no one's saying anything bad about the show. We're just saying a hangup that we have. We're not

[00:23:12] BRACEY: I know totally, but I'm saying the reason of the reason that I think it escapes a lot of people is that like, you're looking at it from the same side, the same perspective, like this adult perspective that is looking at the scenario in which it's like, no, but dude, this is like, it

[00:23:29] MURRAY: well, exactly like, but it's, so it's gonna play different for us than it is for the younger audience who are gonna be scared for Leia, but all, all that I think me and Jonny are saying is like, why are you treating this girl that has two days knowledge as if she was the spy? Like as if you would interrogate tah.

[00:23:45] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:46] JOSH: she treats her, she treats her, like, she knows where they're going. And

[00:23:50] BRACEY: like that, like that completely, that completely plays

[00:23:54] MURRAY: then of course, if you have an inquisitor that's supposed to be horrible. They should not treat kids nicely. Like, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not.

[00:24:02] JONNY: But, but, but it's like, like my whole point, cause I don't wanna dwell on this anymore, but,

[00:24:07] MURRAY: we're dwelling on it. This is the

[00:24:08] JONNY: but the whole point, yeah. My whole point is that like, Even if she does know where they're going, it's like, well, I guess to your defense, Bernhard, Reva has no other choice because that's the only morsel of information she has at her capacity.

[00:24:24] But it's just, I just found it kind of comical, cuz it's like, I like, she's like, no, I'm gonna break her. She must know. She must know. She must know. And it's like, why do you think this 10 year old must? No, I think at a certain point someone might be like, maybe she doesn't really know, but she's like, I know she knows.

[00:24:41] Oh, but

[00:24:43] MURRAY: I think that me and Jonny probably would not be good at writing kids media and that's.

[00:24:49] JOSH: All I can

[00:24:49] BRACEY: even that

[00:24:50] JONNY: But uh, but, but I will say this, I,

[00:24:52] BRACEY: more sensitive. There's

[00:24:54] JONNY: I wanna say something really positive about the interrogation. Um, really good character moment for Reva when she's gonna put the drills to Leia's face. Literally she does not look like she's happy about it. She, she talks like an abusive person, like a,

[00:25:12] MURRAY: you're making me do this.

[00:25:13] JONNY: You're making me do this, but there's no thrill about it. There's no, there's no, like she's gonna get off on this. She's like, you can tell she's like, you're making me do this. I really don't wanna do this. And like, she can almost like a slight hesitation. You could even read into it, but it's just almost like, there's something about her where she feels like she actually has no choice about it because of her ruthlessness, which I think is good character work right there.

[00:25:40] MURRAY: I also think that she has no choice because as much as she, part of her wants to think that she's invaders. Good. Grace is what we learn at the end of the episode is like, no, he does. He has no loyalty to anyone. All he

[00:25:52] JOSH: when he, yo, when he shows up at the end, like that

[00:25:55] JONNY: He's gotta killer. Yeah. The

[00:25:56] JOSH: That was terrifying.

[00:25:58] JONNY: way he's walking.

[00:25:59] JOSH: yeah. The way that he's walking so fast and like the, the off kilter, camera, you know, it was almost like Vader was in danger of overpowering the cameraman.

[00:26:09] MURRAY: yeah, like

[00:26:09] JOSH: the frame was unable was unsure that it could

[00:26:12] BRACEY: can't, I can't hold them.

[00:26:14] JOSH: then he just, and then he just walked right in and he lifts her up off the ground with the fourth. Like that was terrifying. Like, like, I don't think I've seen Vader so frightening. I mean, obviously there's the Rogue One hallway scene, but that's clear why that's frightening.

[00:26:27] Like, like something like this where it's an interpersonal conflict and no guns, no lightsabers. It's just him in a room it's like terrifying.

[00:26:36] MURRAY: And the switch from the last episode where she was like, oh no, I was just talking to Lord Vader, you know, like she had like, kind of like an air about her. And then she learns in that moment, which kind of like dramatic irony that we all knew already that like, no Vader doesn't give a shit about anybody ever at all.

[00:26:52] So he will kill you just like he kills people just because like, just because, you know, it's like, like they had nothing to do with someone escaping, but they were in his presence. So he was like, all right, well you're dead. I don't care. So like for her to learn like, oh no, I like anything will get me killed by this guy, unless it's exactly what he wants.

[00:27:13] BRACEY: Before we get too far from it. I just wanna say the, the Reva thing, uh, like before we get too far from her, her that like that moment of not wanting to torture. I also think that there's like a hint of what she has gone

[00:27:27] JOSH: Mm-hmm

[00:27:27] BRACEY: that she's gone through and that it's like, we're revealing that.

[00:27:31] And, and like, we're just getting a taste

[00:27:32] JONNY: percent. Cause they probably put the screws to her in a very similar fashion when she was Leah's age. Uh,

[00:27:38] MURRAY: with this, this conversation, I keep cutting off Jonny, Jonny, I'm sorry. I'm

[00:27:41] JONNY: Well, I was just gonna say the one, one quick thing about the, the Vader thing. Um, I mentioned this in a discord chat, uh, off, off podcast, but we were talking about the different phases of people's lives and how Obi-Wan was in one phase and revenge, the Sy. And he's in this phase during the show, he is gonna be in the Al Guness phase when a new hope comes out.

[00:28:00] But people forget that Vader's going through that too. It's easy to forget that because he's a static. Costume with a mask. And so, and the same voice. So it's like, oh, once he's Darth Vader, he's the same Darth Vader, whatever. That's not true. And I think there's a lot of Anakin in this Vader, in the show, by the way, he's ruthlessly killing people.

[00:28:22] Willy-nilly by the, uh, by the way that he's just running down the hallway almost to just start choking out Reva, like that's an impetuous nature of Anakin that I feel like, uh, later Vader doesn't have Vader in the hallway later Vader, I think, uh, I think Vader in the hallway in rogue

[00:28:43] JOSH: right there later.

[00:28:45] MURRAY: later Vader

[00:28:45] JONNY: Vader Vader in the hallway in rogue.

[00:28:48] One is cold calculated Jason Vorhees he's Vader. And I feel like, uh, the Vader of this show is still have a, still has a lot of raging fire in him. Like he still has a lot of that. Like, like I hate you energy that has when he is on fire.

[00:29:05] MURRAY: well, yeah, he is like, he's a, he

[00:29:06] JONNY: I just wanna say.

[00:29:07] MURRAY: is a little bit like, uh, like Joe Peche and good fellas in this, like, he's like an unhinged, like just, you know, like what they do to Billy bats. Like he just like you can't.

[00:29:17] JONNY: yeah. Which is what Reva is replicating in her behavior, because she's acting like this, uh, off, off unhinged, uh,

[00:29:26] MURRAY: I think what I was gonna say is like, so I thought up until moments ago that this was like a, mostly a filler episode and treading water, but then I started to rethink about like the episode from just the discussion we're having. And I was like, oh no, it's not a filler episode. If we're under, if we, if we're looking at it for plot points, it might be a filler episode.

[00:29:50] But if we're looking for it's like, no, like just think if we didn't have this episode and then all of a sudden. The next time, uh, obiwan meets Vader. He's like back to a better form than he was the first time when he was just getting smacked around. You'd be like, wait, what? That's a, a jump. It's like, uh, the thing that confused me in like empire, like, wait didn't Luke only have like three days of training.

[00:30:10] Like, what are you doing? Like, and so like, but if you show like, oh no, when he tries to focus on the force, he can't really do it. But when he's just like letting it go, he's, he's still rusty. Like he's, there's a few times he like read, let out grunts while he was doing it. And then like, he had to really work to deflect the laser beam to close the doors and things like that.

[00:30:30] And so like, if you're, if you're doing that and then you're also building LE's character, then you're like, oh no, this that's the whole point of the episode. The plot stuff is just a vehicle in which to tell this like, growth, getting their thing back. And so it's actually in a movie I would've, and don't, this is not a training montage, but like in a movie with a training montage, Like it works, but if you just made an episode of a training montage, you'd be like, all right.

[00:30:58] That was kind

[00:30:58] JONNY: can't do that cuz you need these character beats and there's, if you go down a list there's Obi-Wan and Leia getting closer, Leia trusting Obi-Wan with the, with the holding hands, you see Reva as, as Bracey hinted at that, there's a hint in her eyes about maybe some past trauma she lived through, uh, we see Obi-Wan getting this mojo back.

[00:31:16] We see character of Darth Vader being like, oh, he's still impetuous. Like Anakin, there's a lot of character beats that just kind of come through through this. So like, like the rest of the show. Um, it's funny cuz he mentioned how Mandalorian might be a better show and I know exactly what you're talking about, but I there's something about this show that I

[00:31:36] MURRAY: it's just getting me.

[00:31:37] JONNY: all about character.

[00:31:39] This show's all about character and that's why I love it so much.

[00:31:42] JOSH: Well, yeah, so, I mean, so I mean, this really is, um, well I lost that thought, but I'll pick up an old one. Um, uh, you know, Murray, it's interesting, uh, the way that you frame that, you know, you said in a movie, like this could be a training montage, whereas in a TV show, you have to actually show it.

[00:32:00] But I would, frame it slightly differently. I would say, that in a movie you have to resort to a montage and you lose all of these little, character moments. Right. So, so it's because you don't have the room, to spend the time to see all the stuff happen organically. You just have to imply that it happened with cinematic, techniques.

[00:32:21] Right. Um, Speaking of cinematic techniques. Ah, this is a good segue. Um, the, the very beginning of the episode when, there's that really albeit very awesome, uh, crosscutting sequence where Obi-Wan is in the bacta tank and we're seeing Anakin as Vader in his, bacta tank where I guess he spends probably all of his downtime. Um,

[00:32:44] MURRAY: I would, the amount of effort it takes to get out of bed, like for Vader, I would just like,

[00:32:49] JOSH: he's so angry. He has all this rage. That's like literally what it is. So, but so, but it's interesting the way that, comparing and contrasting them, they have these injuries and everything, the burn on, oh, we want shoulder and the old injuries of

[00:33:02] MURRAY: And then using that kind of as the focus focal point between like the cuts. So it's just like

[00:33:07] JOSH: yeah. Right,

[00:33:08] MURRAY: Yeah. Yep.

[00:33:09] JOSH: I thought that sequence was very cool and very chilling. I do have to ask because the thought occurred to me., do you think that it's anything other than really cool? because like, you know, usually the reason why you, deploy a technique like that is to show something either thematically or, you know, whatever, like, for example, like, Luke in return to the Jedi where he cuts Vader's hand off. And then, we see, , Luke has his own mechanical hand. He realizes he's becoming his father, right.

[00:33:39] JONNY: Mm-hmm , uh,

[00:33:40] JOSH: So, so for this scene, at the beginning, I was trying to figure out some kind of a thematic link and I couldn't really find it.

[00:33:47] The only thing I could think of was like, like these are, are old wounds that, that are not healing because he won't let go of this anger. And like he's creating new wounds, he's hurting other people because he can't let go of this. , is that a stretch or was it just a really cool thing that they deployed without really thinking it

[00:34:07] BRACEY: read on that,

[00:34:07] JONNY: I think that's valid. I, I think that's very valid, but I, my opinion of it, um, it might be a very simple take, but I just think it shows that, uh, regardless of the changes that Vader went through and that Obi-Wan is going through right now is that they still have a bond.

[00:34:24] JOSH: Ah,

[00:34:24] JONNY: feel like their brothers, their friends, their mentor people, but they're, they love he, like, I think one of the great things about this show is that lb one is still struggling for the love he still has for Anakin.

[00:34:39] And feel like, uh, Anakin, you know, love so easily turns into hate. So, uh, it's just like, I think it's just simply just showing a connection between them that, like, there's still something there there's still, they're still tethered in some fashion. You.

[00:34:55] MURRAY: and there's like, yeah, there's, there's like little things that I, I don't maybe are completely unrelated, but we, we do see Obi-Wan, like have more of a temper than we've ever seen him have. Like he gets, um, like when they, in the last episode where they land and no one's there and he's like kind of snapping at, at Leia.

[00:35:16] So he's got anger that he never had before he is got doubts that he is never had before. I don't think that the beginning of this is trying to show. That he's like close to the dark side or anything like that, because I think if anything, he's closer to the lights, like it's kind of like coming back to him and stuff, but it was definitely interesting.

[00:35:33] And it's definitely showing that. Or maybe, I don't know. I don't know. It's probably gonna get like too deep in artsy Forcey but like,

[00:35:42] JOSH: No. Go, go,

[00:35:42] MURRAY: like, no, but like light side and dark side, but they're still ending up in like the same place, the same position. Like it's not, no one has like an advantage at this.

[00:35:53] Like at the, you know, at the, the, the core of it, they're still just crude matter, you know? And that's, that's what Yoda was saying. So it just, so that's kind of like something that could be a thing, cuz if it fooled me, it really did. When I thought it was still on showing, um, Obi-Wans, shoulder all burnt and then it panned down and you're like, oh shit, that's Vader's shoulder.

[00:36:13] That's uh, that was good.

[00:36:14] BRACEY: Uh, yeah, I think those blends were very much intentional. Like that, that happened more than, uh, uh, more than a few times where it would follow down, like, uh, uh, you see Obi-Wan scar and then it switches to a different shot of a scar, but then you realize, oh, that's Vader and then you're following down the arm.

[00:36:31] And then it's like, and then it does a quick cut. And then all of a sudden you realize you've just, you're looking at Vader. And I think that that marrying of the two is actually kind of suggesting something that like they hinted at or that like, not even hinted at a Vader said in the LA the previous episode where he's just trying, he wants Obi-Wan to suffer the way

[00:36:52] MURRAY: here. Yeah.

[00:36:53] JOSH: you go. Yeah, you're right.

[00:36:54] BRACEY: To to, and, and we're watching that, that, that that's

[00:36:57] JOSH: You're right.

[00:36:58] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:36:59] JONNY: am. What you've made me is what he says to Obi-Wan,

[00:37:01] MURRAY: I am what you made me. Yeah.

[00:37:03] JONNY: him suffer in the same way.

[00:37:04] MURRAY: And then it's like,

[00:37:05] JOSH: yeah. You're right. Bracey that's exactly what

[00:37:06] MURRAY: There's also like a cool, like kind of what's what's the word? Juxtaposition. I actually knew what the word was. I just was hedging my bets, but, um, that when Vader, the anger filled hate filled guy, he's just like resting in the tank.

[00:37:21] And like, because of other stuff that was going on, especially in his head, like Obi, one's panicking to get out of that tank. Like, so there is kind of something cool where, where one's just like resting in it. And, um, one's just like, I got things to do. I gotta go get me outta here. Like we,

[00:37:36] JONNY: it's showing it's showing two different people, how they deal with similar trauma in a weird way. So like one is like marinated and then trauma to be more and more Vader like, and one is like, get me the fuck outta

[00:37:48] MURRAY: I gotta fix this. We gotta, we got other there's other people to worry about besides myself

[00:37:53] JOSH: so speaking of, so when Obi-Wan jumps out of the bacta tank, and we find him in this kind of like little war room, I guess on Jabiim right.

[00:38:02] First of all, it was nice to see him in a new set of robes. I thought that was cool. I thought that was cool.

[00:38:07] JONNY: the kind of gray Jedi tunic sort of

[00:38:09] JOSH: yeah, so, but I also, so I'm wondering though, unless they just happen to have like a bunch of old Jedi uniforms lying around, like, this is, just more fuel for , the argument that the in vogue style and the . Galaxy is just, it just happens to be very Jedi,

[00:38:25] JONNY: Yeah. They,

[00:38:26] JOSH: like Jedi,

[00:38:27] MURRAY: Well, do we know, do we know if that's like an official, like Jedi type thing or is it, or we, is it we're assuming it because we always saw a Jedi wearing it's.

[00:38:37] JONNY: they

[00:38:38] MURRAY: So like if they all wore like converse all stars, would we think that they're just wearing something that's in style or is it just like no, that's part of their uniform.

[00:38:46] JONNY: the, uh,

[00:38:47] JOSH: So, so the other . Interesting.

[00:38:48] JONNY: from, I, I said, I think this all stems from like a, almost like a, I don't wanna say misstep, but it all dis it all stems from a calculated decision in the prequels to make them all dress the same, which I thought was a weird decision because that meant they were all dressing, like desert people from Tatooine.

[00:39:04] So like, isn't quite,

[00:39:06] JOSH: be fair. So to be fair, though, if you think about it, I think it does go all the way back to Return to Jedi, because, Yoda's wearing something very similar to what Obi-Wan was wearing in A New Hope. And then at the end of Return of the Jedi, when you see Yoda and Obi-Wan, and Anakin,

[00:39:19] JONNY: Yeah. We're all wearing the

[00:39:20] JOSH: wearing the same thing.

[00:39:21] So, so what I think it became was like, again, I don't think it's a misstep

[00:39:24] JONNY: I didn't wanna use that word. I just couldn't

[00:39:26] JOSH: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh,

[00:39:27] MURRAY: You should have hedge your bets. Like I did.

[00:39:28] JOSH: what I think it is is like they fell into a really, useful visual shorthand. To show who was a Jedi or not. And then in The Phantom Menace, you know, it's interesting because some of the concept art, has Obi-Wan in a very similar, wardrobe to what Luke was wearing in Return to the Jedi, which I think would've been cool.

[00:39:49] Um, but then again, like some decision was made somewhere along the line, , to just make them all wear those Jedi robes, because that's what you, you recognize as Jedi. So I totally understand that. The thing though now, and we're really seeing it in this show in particular, because Obi-Wan's supposed to be in hiding yet.

[00:40:06] He's apparently wearing like the Jedi uniform that everybody

[00:40:10] MURRAY: and only changed his first name

[00:40:11] JOSH: and only change. Oh, by the way, thank you for bringing that I'm really pleased that we haven't gotten some really labored explanation of why he chose that name. He was just like, he's just like, I go by Ben now.

[00:40:24] That's all I needed. I was

[00:40:26] BRACEY: you don't need? Well, there's one of you, I guess you're solo.

[00:40:33] MURRAY: One thing I thought was really cool jumping again to the end is. We don't ever really see fallout from people dying on these like rebel missions. Like, it's a kind of

[00:40:42] JONNY: Mm-hmm

[00:40:43] MURRAY: like, Hey, I did it. I blew up the death star. Meanwhile, like everyone's dead. Or like in last jet, last Jedi. It's like, yeah, there's one there's rows.

[00:40:50] Who's upset, but everyone else is just like, P do you did it again? You cost us half the

[00:40:56] JONNY: You got the fleet killed Poe, but whatever

[00:40:59] MURRAY: Whatever, like stop showing off. And, but it just, and so with this, like devastating, like that's like

[00:41:08] JONNY: Yeah. I thought that was a good

[00:41:09] MURRAY: stuff. Like, so I thought that was cool. I thought, um, there's like, there's things that, the reason why I think that they make calculated things to be like, no, we still gotta make this enjoyable for kids too.

[00:41:20] Like him, like smuggling, lay it out. Like just in his coat.

[00:41:23] JOSH: Dude. I'm sorry.

[00:41:24] MURRAY: funny. That's great. That's great. Yeah.

[00:41:27] JOSH: I love that.

[00:41:27] JONNY: these feet just trailing with them

[00:41:30] MURRAY: because it's like, what else could you do? Like you.

[00:41:32] JOSH: exactly. What else are you gonna do? It's like, it's like, all we have to do is we have to get across that platform. If we just, if we just walk like everything's normal, we're supposed to be here, then it'll be fine.

[00:41:40] Like we

[00:41:41] MURRAY: yeah.

[00:41:41] JONNY: Have to

[00:41:41] JOSH: this far.

[00:41:43] JONNY: go right now. They can't wait. They have to leave that moment, you

[00:41:46] MURRAY: And so, no, I, I, it made me like laugh, but in a good way, not like, oh, this is stupid, but you're just like, no, but then, like, it that's, that's something like, that's not like, like a fucking like Pratt fall or whatever, but that adds lightness to the girl that was just getting tortured like fucking two minutes ago.

[00:42:03] Now we have some sort of like levity and even in just a psych gig like that.

[00:42:08] JONNY: You know, there there's something there. It sounds very perverse. I'm gonna bring up, but there's something I like about seeing characters. That are very much a specific thing. And then you find like their breaking moment, like, you know, like Luke stands up to the emperor and he's like, I'm a Jedi, like my father before me, fuck you.

[00:42:26] And the emperor is like, okay, fine. Once he starts electrocuting him, Luke is like pleading with his dad to help him, you know, or, uh, Obi-Wan coming to grips with like, uh, everything. This whole entire show is his breaking moment, you know? And I thought the stakes were really elevated by showing Leia freak out during the interrogation, because she's so tough about everything.

[00:42:47] But then once those drills rightfully so are coming towards her eyeballs. , you know, it's like, she becomes a 10 year old girl again, and she's like, oh my God, like I'm gonna die. This is terrible. And so not that and trying to say, I enjoy watching kids go through terror like that, but I just like the, I

[00:43:04] MURRAY: What are you, penny wise? Jesus.

[00:43:06] JONNY: there you go.

[00:43:07] I like the kind of like, uh, The deconstruction of characters that this show is the bravery that this show is willing to take, to show people, getting to their moments, cuz even like, uh, and I'm sure it's gonna come towards T you know, and, um, I'm and even like, uh, like we were just alluding to with like when that pilot dies and like you see them all like at their, at a low moment, like, I don't know, there's something about, there's something about sitting in those moments.

[00:43:34] Like, and I feel like because of the TV show, we can do that. And because a new hope was a movie, you can't have Luke be like, oh, Biggs is dead. And, and because Last Jedi is a movie, you can't have like Poe thinking about how he killed a hundred people, you know, because they have to go, go, go, go, go.

[00:43:52] MURRAY: you can, you can't have Leia even think for one second that her entire planet died and got explode. Yeah.

[00:43:59] JONNY: So because of

[00:43:59] MURRAY: Sorry about Ben.

[00:44:01] JONNY: yeah. We can do that. And.

[00:44:03] BRACEY: you just made me realize that like the, the future of this, a, a show like this, I feel like even the last episode is like when, uh, uh, uh, when Obi-Wan returns back to Tatooine. They could drop like Luke meeting Biggs for the first time or playing with his friend or, or something like that, that you're like, oh, this is the start of that friendship.

[00:44:25] You know, like, like playing that little, that little card in like in nice little subtle way where it's not like

[00:44:32] MURRAY: subtle is the thing.

[00:44:33] JONNY: that almost makes me wanna cry. Just thinking about that. Cause

[00:44:36] BRACEY: Yeah. Right.

[00:44:37] JONNY: moment, you know? Yep.

[00:44:38] JOSH: Oh, well, all they have to do is like have a little, , 10 year old with a mustache and then you'll know Biggs but won't have to hit you over the head with it.

[00:44:44] BRACEY: That's exactly. Exactly.

[00:44:46] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:44:46] MURRAY: Uh,

[00:44:47] BRACEY: so I'm gonna draw a mustache.

[00:44:49] MURRAY: the, so I was like, there's like some things that are like, oh, this like, for some reason, Obi-Wan's swimming, like complete, like just, I was like, this is awesome. I don't know why I've, I've mostly seen them on, in desert planets for the most part. So this is like awesome. Seen them

[00:45:02] JOSH: gave me, Phantom Menace

[00:45:04] MURRAY: Yeah.

[00:45:04] JONNY: Yeah, he did that on

[00:45:06] MURRAY: And then, yeah, for sure. And then,

[00:45:09] JOSH: And was like the same design. Like it was almost, uh, like it

[00:45:11] MURRAY: well

[00:45:12] JOSH: the same one from like the Jedi survival kit that they had, lying

[00:45:15] JONNY: like that was probably his, that he had on his person that from like 20, 30 years ago, you know?

[00:45:20] MURRAY: Yeah, they did the, the shot, the like the transponder, like where could he be? Like that shot? Like, that was

[00:45:26] JOSH: Shot of the commlink was like exactly like the shot at A New

[00:45:29] MURRAY: Yeah. And,

[00:45:30] JONNY: did a lot of illusions on purpose to a new

[00:45:32] MURRAY: what I like loved in this episode and I was like, this is the coolest fucking thing is, Obi-Wan picking them off in the dark. That was the coolest star wars thing I've seen in a long, long, long

[00:45:45] JOSH: That was like some Jedi, , Batman shit right there. He's

[00:45:48] MURRAY: it was. And yeah, and, and going from like someone that we know in the, when he is older, Uses like force like sound, you know what I'm saying? Like, he makes, he like throws like a, or makes a water drop or something to distract people. But now he's just on base instinct and he's gotta do, yeah, he's gotta do something.

[00:46:12] And so he just pops out of the dark and he is just like, and then the fact that he distinguishes his lightsaber again, so that he's back in the dark. Yeah. And like, and the other guy's just like, don't move. Like he doesn't know what to do. I just thought that was the, it was so cool. And then, you know, I'm a sucker for light Saer glow.

[00:46:30] And so add that on top of it, baby.

[00:46:33] JONNY: it also shows you, it, it is really good with showing by the way. I fucking love all the light glows from force awakens to today. But, um, it goes to show you his skill level too, because he had to do that to get the advantage, instead of just turning it on, killing one guy and calmly walking up to the next guy.

[00:46:52] He's. This is how I had, I had to fight two storm troopers at the same time. And then, so it goes to show you like where he's at and he's still not quite up to, up to par with what he could be, you

[00:47:05] MURRAY: yeah, the guy that just like takes on all these droids, like we saw him in all the first three movies, just go through all these droids and he killed Darth mall and everything. Yeah.

[00:47:15] JOSH: So, but then you start to get a little hint of that again. , a little bit after that, when he is in the hallway,

[00:47:20] MURRAY: yeah. Yep.

[00:47:21] JOSH: shots from all those storm troopers, it was very reminiscent of the prequel version of Obi-Wan.

[00:47:26] MURRAY: How, how much effort it was taking him though,

[00:47:29] JONNY: yeah. And you can see it was because of the adrenaline that he was able to do these things

[00:47:36] JOSH: Yeah. Like it was like, it was a crisis and he was with Leia. He had to protect her and then like the muscle memory

[00:47:41] MURRAY: had a do. Yeah.

[00:47:42] JONNY: exactly. I love that moment where the guy behind him shoots and he just ducks at the last second and it hits the droid in front of him. And.

[00:47:49] MURRAY: like this.

[00:47:50] JONNY: As he's getting more and more confident. It comes to that scene with the cracking of the window.

[00:47:54] And he's like with one hand deflecting, laser blasts, while still holding the water. And it's like this guy, like he's coming back. Like, he's like, he's really coming back to form. It's not quite there, but you know, by the next episode or two, he's gonna like, it's, it's, something's gonna hit, you know?

[00:48:12] JOSH: Yeah, which I think is also paving the way for another confrontation with Vader where he's a little more prepared this time

[00:48:20] JONNY: Mm-hmm mm-hmm

[00:48:21] MURRAY: And I think that it like, um, really ties in nicely that when he tries to use the force, like to move, like the little thing, like when he tries, he can't do it, but when he just has to do it and not try, then he's able to do it. So that's kind of like,

[00:48:38] JONNY: like Yoda,

[00:48:39] MURRAY: yeah, exactly. Like it kind of, yeah.

[00:48:41] It's like when he is trying to do it, he can't. And same with when lay is falling in episode two, he just, he can't, he can't try to catch her. He just has to catch her.

[00:48:51] BRACEY: sorry. Sorry. Jenny. Who? Deman

[00:48:54] JONNY: uh, there, there's another thing I wanna bring up and I have to give a shout out to, uh, our old friend from Babylon, uh, rose, uh, cuz we're talking about

[00:49:06] MURRAY: Hey rose. How's

[00:49:08] JONNY: Uh, but she was talking about how there seems to be a really strong emphasis on attachment for Obi-Wan in this. And um, we were discussing about how can someone go from something like this to later on where he might be less attached.

[00:49:27] And I think this is kind of paving away for the quiet gun thing, because I feel like it's true. Th Obi-Wan is getting his mojo back through his attachment to Leia and these human things. And these they're showing like on purpose. Like these are big moments when she's like holding his hand at the end and he's staring at her, like this could be the daughter that he never had and stuff like that.

[00:49:48] That being said though, um, he still needs to talk to Qui-Gon. So I feel like there's gonna be some sort of like, you know, how the there's this idea of like, uh, to, to be a Buddhist and reaching Nirvana, you kind of have to let go of all everything. So I feel like he's gonna get his motivation back through all of this.

[00:50:10] And then through the teachings of maybe why I got our meeting with him, he's gonna realize like, okay, like now I know why life and love and all these scenes are important and now I'm gonna just let go of all that. To reach the Zen state and becoming kind of blank. And I think that might be the thing that tips him over into learning, to be in an imortal ghost, being a fucking sword wizard again, and then having a moment with Vader where he almost like transcends and Vader, maybe not, does not understand how, how Obi-Wan became so powerful.

[00:50:48] And it could be because Obi-Wan's like now I know like the Jedi and the prequels were so detached from everything that they became complacent and they became weak spiritually, and that's how they were be able to be crushed. And I feel like Obi-Wan needed to be reminded of like, what love is, what attachment is, why people care matter.

[00:51:11] And then with that new knowledge, I'm projecting with that new knowledge. I feel like, I feel like, uh, he's gonna be like, okay, now I know why we do what we do. And then he could finally do it. If that makes any

[00:51:24] MURRAY: yeah, the only thing, like, I think that's great and I think you probably, uh, you and rose have it like right on the head. But the thing that I get from it is because I remember I was telling you. When I went back and watched the prequels, the Jed eyes were giving me like the, he GBS.

[00:51:37] They were not like the Jed eyes that I loved before. I was like, oh, wow. They're really like dogmatic. And the like, uh, like power hungry and stuff, you know, it's but just in a different way than say like, um, pal patine was and everything. But so it is just kind of funny that it's like, he uses all this attachment to save this girl and do it.

[00:51:58] And then like, Qui-Gon comes back from Des like, you know, just let all that go, man. You can't have attachments anymore. What are you doing? We're Jedi, we can't have attachments. And you're like, bro, like, what are you, why are you trying to rob me of this? Like I just like, uh, and it just

[00:52:10] JONNY: be a scene, you

[00:52:11] MURRAY: no, but I think you're right.

[00:52:12] It's gonna teach him like a different way to be detached. But I just thought it was like, the premise is funny that he finally learns like love and attachment and then income, like the elder Jedi, like bro, get rid of

[00:52:24] JONNY: I don't think he's gonna be detached though. I think what he's gonna do with, like, I think it's gonna be one of those things where he's gonna learn the value of attachment, but he, but letting go doesn't necessarily have to be detached. Cuz I feel like detached comes with the connotation of being cold and like apathetic.

[00:52:41] And I think with him, it's like, he is gonna be all about empathy and caring, but he's not gonna make these personal commitments of his own life so he can be of a service to everybody else. And does that make any sense, like

[00:52:55] JOSH: Yeah. Well, so, you know, so the Jedi, when we find them in the prequels, they are, very dogmatic and they're very, I think, removed from what the, real meaning . Of Their beliefs are, you know, like you, yeah. So it's sort of like they have turned doing good into kind of an abstract idea divorced from, material lived reality. It's so, and, the other thing that we have talked about, so it is true that, love and all of these, these intense emotions, like, , fear of loss and all of that stuff, they can lead you to do really horrible things.

[00:53:33] Using the parlance of Star Wars, they can lead you to fall to the dark side. And I think, one of the things that happens when you, implement a belief system at like an institutional level is you have to make it foolproof. So what the Jedi, , decide to do was okay if love and attachments, can lead you to the dark side, let's just make it so you don't love anyone and have no attachments and then, and then that'll solve everything.

[00:53:58] MURRAY: yeah.

[00:53:58] JOSH: So, so,

[00:53:59] JONNY: whole point of what they're trying to do and yeah.

[00:54:01] JOSH: Yeah. Well, so, so, that for me is the only explanation for why they have to recruit Jedi when they're young, young children and take them away from their families, so that, they also have this code where they're not allowed to marry and they have to, I don't know if they have to be celibate or what, but it seems like, it's a very unnatural, , detached way, to live that I think is, to sort of, prevent, those sorts of emotions that can lead you to fall to the dark side.

[00:54:29] because like that's, I guess, riskier,

[00:54:32] MURRAY: It's like a overcompensation and it's like, they're doing,

[00:54:36] JOSH: Yeah. So then

[00:54:37] MURRAY: they end up doing kind of more damage than good

[00:54:40] JOSH: Yeah. So then what happens is like when they find An, the quote unquote chosen one and he already has attachments like, okay, he's too old, but I guess we'll train him anyway. so when he goes to Yoda in episode three and he basically says exactly what's going on.

[00:54:54] He's like, I'm afraid that I'm about, to lose something help me. What do I do? And Yoda's like, train yourself, not to need it. And like, that's not, that's not helpful at that point.

[00:55:07] So, so, they don't even have the tools to help somebody who,

[00:55:12] MURRAY: yeah. I.

[00:55:13] JOSH: who

[00:55:13] JONNY: by the way, I actually love that final scene with Obi-Wan and Padme, where he tells her everything. And as he leaves, he's like, Anakin's the father, isn't he? And the way he says it, he's like, I always knew, like, that's the way that I always read that scene.

[00:55:37] He's like, we all know we're not supposed to have attachments, but he's like, he's like, guys, we're not fucking idiots. Like I know you guys have been a thing for a bit.

[00:55:44] MURRAY: So really quick, um, hopefully really quick on what Josh was saying again, if you allow me to tie it to my, um, the only two things I talk about, which are religion and depression, but, um, w that is , that is something that you find in, um, especially the like evangelical Christian faith is they they're like, kind of like taught quote unquote to like minister to people, um, that are in need, but they don't do it with any heart or any, um, Emotion.

[00:56:18] It's all just kind of, you know, like yeah, exactly. And it's, it's very, no, but it not, that would even be giving it too much. Like, so one example I could, um, think of is . So I went to a Christian college in which I had to attend church three times a week and I did not do that because I hate church. And so I got suspended from college.

[00:56:39] Yes. Something that I paid for, they suspended me and,

[00:56:42] JONNY: did

[00:56:42] MURRAY: and I, I, I don't know. Well, I mean, I went back obviously, but yeah. So I did, um, and, but then all stupid things. And so if I want to walk for graduation, which I want did for my parents, I really didn't give a shit. But like, um, so I had to do like this, uh, like volunteer work, which is fine.

[00:57:00] And they set me up in a very specific place. It was kind of like a thrift store instead of actually helping people. They had me like sweeping floors and all that bullshit. And I witnessed the woman that ran it. Someone came to her for advice. And he was like, oh, I really messed up. I don't, I don't know what to do.

[00:57:16] I'm really hurting. And she was like, or someone like really hurt me. And she was like, well, you know, forgive 70 times seven, anything that's run done wrong to you. And the guy was like, I have to do this like seven more times. And she was like, no, that's not what I meant. And like walked away. And you're like, you are so clinical and making sure that you could fit a Bible verse or something that Jesus said to him, thinking that it fulfilled your obligation to help somebody, but you actually did nothing to them.

[00:57:44] You didn't like reach them where they were. You didn't, there's no emotion. There was no love in it. And we see that a lot with them condemning other people's lifestyle. They're not doing it from a loving standpoint. It's from a, I don't like that. I don't wanna deal with it. But also in the, like in the Bible, like Paul says like, no, like become all things to all people.

[00:58:03] Like if someone's suffering, then suffer with them. If they're happy, be happy with them. But they, the church, I guess, to kind of like separate themselves from other, um, like I guess non-believers they do this very clinical approach where it's just, these are the words that scriptures say, this is how it's

[00:58:21] JOSH: These are the literal rules and to be good, we need to, to do these literal things.

[00:58:26] MURRAY: And so that's why I get like creeped out with the Jedi, because they're doing the same thing. Like, like I, that all that long winded story came to me because you were saying how Yoda was just like, well, just train yourself to, to, to not feel that way. I don't know what to tell you. Like he's like he had, yeah.

[00:58:43] He's he has all the wisdom in the world. He's the one that knows the force the best. And he is just like, eh, I don't know. You'll figure it out. Just, uh, don't do that. Just don't love people. I don't know what to tell you.

[00:58:52] JOSH: So, so, but it is so, but it is interesting though, uh, Jon, what you're saying, because I do think that, how Obi-Wan is gonna get in touch with Qui-Gon I think you're right. I think it's through sort of reawakening his humanity, frankly. And also, now that he's established this, very loving relationship with Leia, it's sort of a reason for him to live quite frankly, and to carry on.

[00:59:16] JONNY: yeah.

[00:59:17] JOSH: I

[00:59:17] JONNY: be a Jedi night.

[00:59:18] JOSH: yes, exactly. I do think that's why he's going to be able to speak to Qui-Gon and I have kind of a different, , view of it because, Qui-Gon was kind of like a rebel among the Jedi, because Obi-Wan says to him in The Phantom Menace, if you would just follow the code, you would be on the

[00:59:36] MURRAY: be on the council.

[00:59:37] JONNY: And George Lucas even described them as a Maverick, Jedi, uh, and the promotional material and all that.

[00:59:42] JOSH: Right, So I think the training that he had for Obi-Wan and for Yoda is to sort of reconnect with your humanity. It's not about separating yourself from the world. It's about engaging with the world and that's how you do good.

[01:00:01] MURRAY: Well, yeah, that's that would be the, um, sorry, like the, like the Buddha, like what he did with like Hinduism and he is like, no, well, this is all right, let's break the let's break out of this and focus on the real stuff. That's what Jesus did with Judaism. Like, so that's what, like Qui-Gon soon is like, this is your religion and you have some of it.

[01:00:17] Right. But this is the main points that you're missing. And instead of embracing that, they're like, well, that's why you can't be on the council.

[01:00:24] JONNY: Well, also to show a,

[01:00:26] MURRAY: Yeah.

[01:00:27] JONNY: to show a distinction between Qui-Gon and Yoda, uh, and the, and episode one, uh, Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan things that we think of the force as in the original trilogy, he tells him, uh, think about the moment. Don't think too far about the future. And he's, he's like, I'm more concerned about the living force and Yoda and the prequels he's like their future is cloudy.

[01:00:48] Fuck 'em. We can't train them. And then, uh, and then, uh, and in the, in the original trilogy, uh, he tells Luke Wawa gun says he's like always to the future. You're thinking about, he's like never right where you are, what you are doing. And then he starts talking about how the force is in literally everything around them, the living force.

[01:01:08] So he learns something in between trilogies. And I feel like that's kind of like Quah is in some way, possibly the wisest Jedi that was around. It's just that, you know, he died.

[01:01:20] JOSH: Well, well, so, but that's actually why, so, that's actually kind of, I think not the incorrect way to view it. It's sort of like, if you think about it.

[01:01:29] JONNY: way it's supposed to be.

[01:01:30] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. Because, it's not a coincidence that the climax of The Phantom Menace is when Qui-Gon dies.

[01:01:35] The fact of Qui-Gon's, death at the end of that movie is sort of saying here's, here's where it all went wrong.

[01:01:42] Like they should have listened to what he was saying.

[01:01:44] JONNY: Yes. And, uh, to, to, to discuss something that we've always talked about back in the day that

[01:01:50] JOSH: talked about anything with you, Jon.

[01:01:52] JONNY: uh, just something that I think you specifically love about Obi-Wan Bernhard. And I think it ties with, uh, Obi-Wan's journey throughout this episode with him getting his mojo back and stuff like that is that.

[01:02:05] Obi-Wan for a lack of better phrase. It's almost like the working class Jedi, everyone's a prophecy, you know, Harry Potter, Neo Luke Skywalker, Ray Ben solo. Atan everyone's like, oh, you were born of the blood that will make you fucking Godzilla Jedi or whatever. And it's just like, but Obi-Wan doesn't have any of that shit.

[01:02:25] And then, uh, all he has is good, a good teacher and a good work ethic. And like, and then when he's not using it, he loses it. So it's just, I think this show is making a very strong argument that like Obi-Wan is like possibly the greatest Jedi ever, because he just has to earn it. And everyone else was kind of given to them with a little bit of practice.

[01:02:54] And I kind of like that, that this is about. This is a man who's learning lessons. This is a man that, uh, needs to find his discipline. And this is a man that has no destiny, but the destiny that he makes himself. And I don't know, I just think like for something that's about like prophecies and this and that, I'm so happy that it's not about the Messiah.

[01:03:16] I figure that it's about just the dude.

[01:03:18] MURRAY: he Obi-Wan Obi-Wan is who? Space. Yeah. Obi-Wan is who the,

[01:03:24] JOSH: row

[01:03:24] MURRAY: uh,

[01:03:24] JOSH: Jedi.

[01:03:25] MURRAY: yeah, Obi-Wan is who the, the, uh, Bruce Springsteen of spacings about in his songs is like

[01:03:29] JOSH: okay. There

[01:03:31] JONNY: it is.

[01:03:32] JOSH: um, working question. Um, that's funny. Um, yeah, the other thing that this show is doing for me is really showing an alternate, , way that the quote unquote saga could have gone where the Star Wars saga is all about Obi-Wan as the main character. Right?

[01:03:48] MURRAY: work and class

[01:03:48] BRACEY: interesting in my opinion.

[01:03:51] JOSH: it is more interesting in my opinion, the thing that really kind of crystallizes it for me, like why it's, so disinteresting, compared TObi-Wan is as soon as you, literally make Anakin. a chair of child Messiah it's so unrelatable in contrast the story of Obi-Wan Kenobi who is, as you termed it Jon, is just like a regular Joe trying to do the best that he can.

[01:04:18] JONNY: you go. That's the name of the episode? Uh,

[01:04:23] JOSH: won Kenobi, uh, you know, like that, that comparatively is more interesting. And I think that we're seeing it, , here, I said this last week, but having seen the moment. Where Obi-Wan, learns that Anakin didn't die on Mustafar and that he's still alive. The idea that we didn't really see that in the mainline movies and we never saw them, confront each other again.

[01:04:44] I mean, we, we sort of do, but completely stripped of all of, the pathos and everything that like, quote unquote, should be there that you're expecting if you're, watching episode four after episode three, right? Like, like, the fact that we don't have that, having seen it, it's so wild that, that that's not in the movies. And obviously we know why it's because, Star Wars is not a, like pre-planned, nine movie saga. It started as one movie. And then there were like, Hey, I could do three more before this. And that's how its sort of,

[01:05:14] MURRAY: Yeah. And that's where like the, the genius of it comes into play. They just kept trying to make it like, no, this was all planned out. It's like, no, there's something, there's something like in the skill of having a story and then realizing what the story you have is like, oh, what if we made this the middle of a story that nobody knows?

[01:05:31] Like, that's awesome. Like, they're the, I don't know why they have to distract like detract from that and make it like, no, he had it all planned out from the jump and it's like, uh,

[01:05:40] JOSH: No. And the other thing too is like, I don't know why we have to pretend that these movies were all planned out.

[01:05:46] MURRAY: Yeah, exactly. Like,

[01:05:47] JOSH: I mean, They clearly weren't

[01:05:50] MURRAY: yeah. Well, that's what you say in the Splinter of the Mind's Eye episode. Like this is the proof that it was not planned out.

[01:05:55] JONNY: It it's one of those things where people dislike the idea of the myth or the legend more than what history actually is. It's like, oh, he had it all planned out since 1974. It's like, no, he didn't. But, um,

[01:06:05] MURRAY: the background of the, like you were saying, the background of the prequels is so much better than the story that we're given. It's like a, was that episode of community where if you look in the background, like Obeds like helping a woman give birth, but he's not in the rest of the episode.

[01:06:19] And like, and so, and the rest of the episode' just okay, but like, clearly something better is happening in the background that no one pays attention to. And that's what the, the prequels are. It's like all the, the politician stuff, all the Obi-Wan stuff is much more interesting. And then what they give you, uh,

[01:06:34] JONNY: was it last episode where someone said that the prequels should have been made through Obi-Wan's perspective primarily?

[01:06:40] JOSH: yeah, I guess I did say that what this show was making me realize was that Obi-Wan's a more interesting main character.

[01:06:47] JONNY: which is going back to the working class Jedi thing. I mean like, like to see him struggle and stuff like that. And even like Qui-Gon Jinn, he was, I think ostensibly the main character of the first movie,

[01:06:58] He was an interesting character unto himself because like, who is this Maverick Jedi who's going against the rules and then he's dead.

[01:07:04] And you think it would've went over to Obi-Wan after that point, but they kind of do like equal Obi-Wan

[01:07:10] JOSH: yeah. Yeah. I mean, it

[01:07:11] JONNY: no central

[01:07:12] JOSH: it sort of does, they're sort of co-leads in episode two, it's like, there are the two of them.

[01:07:16] JONNY: As compared to like Rey being the main character and Luke being the main character, the prequels it's like Anakin or Obi-Wan is a name character. We don't, you know, it's like, yeah,

[01:07:25] JOSH: Bracey, I wanted to get your thoughts on this. I love the volume stage. I love, that it's, , making these shows, , possible. And I think it's amazing, , what it can do. , but in this episode in particular, I think we're starting to see the limits of what the volume, , can do. And I do not mean this in a negative way. It's just an observation. One of the reasons why the volume stage, which is the wall of screens that moves along with the camera. So they're able to capture, , the backgrounds in camera instead of shooting things against a blue or green screen and compositing the backgrounds in later.

[01:08:02] One of the reasons why it makes these huge epic shows possible is because you don't have to, build physical sets yet. You're able to capture all of the interactive lighting and, the genuine reactions of the actors seeing, the environments, , you get all of that in camera and it's so much, it's so much faster, et cetera, et cetera.

[01:08:21] but I can't help, but notice a lot of the rooms are like the size of the volume stage. because it's sort of like, you know, if you have to come up with an interior location and you don't want , to build it physically, you want to do it in the volume.

[01:08:36] You're limited by the size of the volume stage. Right. So, so it seems like a lot of these, More than a few of these interior locations have like the internal volume I'm using that, , with the meaning of the word, not the name of the, of the stage, like the, in the inside the inside of the room, the space inside of the room just happens to be about the same size of the volume stage itself, if that makes any sense.

[01:09:01] And then, um, I also think that, the more comfortable you get with the, uh, the technology, I imagine, you start to like play a little fast and loose with it.

[01:09:12] MURRAY: Mm-hmm

[01:09:12] JOSH: and like there was one shot, when Tala the Indira Varma character, when the shot, , we were talking about where she stopped at the checkpoint, and then she goes on through The door opens, then she walks off.

[01:09:24] And then if you look at the floor, the reflection on the floor, , completely, , stops. And I feel like that's the seam where physical, , set floor stops and the volume stage begins. I don't know, I could be wrong. It's just like, now I'm like sort of looking for it. So, because, before, when they were on, uh, tater or they had like some foliage in the ground, could hide, where the seam was.

[01:09:50] but when you have a set, that's a flat reflective material, that's harder to hide because it's a straight line, right.

[01:09:58] BRACEY: funny that you're saying that, cuz I was playing that scene as you were talking about it. And I was like looking at them I'm and I just went back just to look at that exact shot and what I feel like they did there is they broke it up with that, uh, uh, redlined, uh, metal detector, but they still ha they have it.

[01:10:14] Like, I think that's where that line is. And beyond that, like it, it is a projection, so they have the, you know, like the, the reflections are there. They, I mean,

[01:10:24] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:10:24] BRACEY: But I, but I, I hear what you're saying. They, they are, they're like, you know, they're trying to fit everything within their, their magic box. Right.

[01:10:31] Like, and like they've got the

[01:10:33] JOSH: so, you know, so, you know, which is fine, like, like I'm I'm not, someone who's like, okay, I can see how they're using the technology. And therefore my suspension of disbelief is ruined and the show sucks now. Like I'm not saying that at all. Like, like it's just like, it's just, so interesting how this technology same as any other technology, has amazing uses, also has certain limitations.

[01:10:53] It has things that it's, good at and has things that it's less good at. , so it's been, I don't know, fun for lack of a, a better word, like to kind of see where the seam are. literally and figuratively, it's like, love of not trying to, take something apart to criticize it. , but to take something apart because we're trying to figure out how, how it works, cuz we wanna understand it so we can, use that same knowledge, you know?

[01:11:17] JONNY: Yeah.

[01:11:18] BRACEY: What, what I liked.

[01:11:18] that they did with the, like, what I, like, what they're trying to do is like create a setting in which they can use it to their strength, like in rooms where you're under, uh, underwater, um, which also presented that opportunity for, for Obi-Wan to like, show up, like he just went to Nabu and he jumped in the water and like, it's like, you know, calling back to I'm getting back into my pad one days.

[01:11:43] Um, but like, uh, yeah, I, I, I feel like it's, uh, it's, it's, it's cool. I'm looking forward to seeing what else they, they try to do with it. They're they're gonna, they're gonna fail, like, you know, at some point they're doing amazing, but like yeah. As they, as they play fast and loose, they're, we're definitely gonna see where

[01:12:01] MURRAY: I, it, it kind of stretched a lot in Boba Fett and that were to me, and which was funny because the same people then did the episode of Boba Fett. That was basically the Mandalorian and it was incredible again. And so like, wait, what is, what is how it's the same equipment?

[01:12:17] JOSH: No. What? Because.

[01:12:18] JONNY: different directors, uh,

[01:12:19] JOSH: No. Well, yeah, so, so it's like, so it's a different director and it's a different situation. It's a different circumstance. It's a, you know, it's a different planet. And like, you don't know where on the schedule that shoot was and how tired everyone was and like, you know, what money they had already spent.

[01:12:33] So it's like, you know, it's really hard, to judge, where it works really well versus one where it works less well, because like you have no idea the circumstances that they

[01:12:41] MURRAY: I made up the circumstances in my mind and that's a hundred percent accurate. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm judging by.

[01:12:47] JONNY: Bernhard, I, I was gonna say, I would, I would, I would argue that you would notice these things because Imperial set designs. Are big and spacious and very like recta, like just like straight

[01:12:58] lines. So it's easier to, to spot borders because borders are a big part of like, they're, they're designed as compared to like, um, I don't know, the carbon freezing room, which actually be a perfect set for the volume because there's no

[01:13:12] JOSH: for the volume. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The other thing, , that I was, thinking of when they landed it, um, is it called, is it really called fortres inquisitor? I thought that was a joke when they said it in the episode,

[01:13:24] JONNY: Is it actually a joke? Cause it, maybe that was a joke for them, but they said it kind of serious didn't they.

[01:13:28] JOSH: The first time I thought it was a joke and then the second time I realized, I don't think it's a joke. I also read some people on Twitter were referring to it and I don't think they were joking either. So I was like, oh shit. I mean, I should just probably check Wikipedia and see and see what it actually

[01:13:41] JONNY: Hey, if you have a Darth Maul and a Darth Tyranus, and a Darth Sidious and a General Greivous it's like, they're, they, they're kind of on the nose of everything, you know?

[01:13:49] JOSH: but what's so weird though, about inquisitor is that it's like specifically the construction of dead language on here on,

[01:13:57] MURRAY: it's not dead for them. Oh man. Maybe it's man. there we go.

[01:14:03] JOSH: um, uh, the other thing also, and this is like the nitpick of all nitpicks, but once I had the thought it was driving me crazy so it's this really, really amazing, environment, The hanger on fortres inquisitor, where, you know, you have the clouds in, the distance behind them.

[01:14:20] Right. but I realized though, those clouds should be a little more blown out. Right. So, because like, if you're exposing for the people inside, the cloud should be blown out and you shouldn't be able to see the detail in those clouds. Right.

[01:14:33] BRACEY: such a

[01:14:34] MURRAY: I love it.

[01:14:35] BRACEY: You're such a

[01:14:36] MURRAY: Their

[01:14:36] BRACEY: filmmaker brother.

[01:14:37] MURRAY: white balance was off

[01:14:39] BRACEY: you're right. You're

[01:14:40] JOSH: Somebody backed me here

[01:14:41] BRACEY: Can, can Cameron would've gotten that right? No, you're you're right. You're

[01:14:45] JOSH: Well, so, because, so, because then, so Bracey, you have the episode in front of you,

[01:14:48] to the end where they fly away and they escape. Reva is, standing at the edge of, the opening with her lightsaber and, the storm troopers are walking away toward the camera. Tell me that it doesn't look like those storm troopers are standing in the middle of an L E D sound stage.

[01:15:05] The lighting is completely different.

[01:15:08] BRACEY: Yeah, no, it, it is. I mean, you can see, uh, the light source is coming from the open,

[01:15:14] JOSH: And all I'm saying

[01:15:15] BRACEY: like a really like dark it's. Like they, I feel like they chose that more for mood not I agree. Oh, oh actually. Yeah. There's parts where the lighting's really bad.

[01:15:25] MURRAY: unless he's watching it.

[01:15:28] JOSH: is right. I'm telling you, I'm telling you so, so, but what I'm saying is, so, but what I'm saying is, so what I'm saying is had they, just made the clouds a little brighter and blown out. I don't think that that would've been a problem, , because you would've had the glow wrap around the storm troopers and you wouldn't have noticed.

[01:15:42] Right. I think,

[01:15:43] JONNY: have two thoughts. I have two thoughts about the one, , a tongue and cheek comment. , maybe it's more accurate to the original trilogy because in the original trilogy that probably would've been a matte painting and that matte painting would've

[01:15:54] JOSH: Fair. Very

[01:15:55] JONNY: lit and in focus. Uh, but on top of that, connected to that though this episode, I was noticing some, I don't know, junkiness a little bit with some of the special effects, like when Reva is like fighting the, the speed by herself.

[01:16:08] It's like, is that speeder like half the size that it should be like, like she looks like she's like three times the size of the spaceship that she's fighting. And it looks like it's five feet away from her. And I was like something to happened with the perspective here that they didn. find, I feel like because of the TV thing, they didn't have enough time to fine tune it, but I was like, something was weird with that.

[01:16:30] And like when the ship landed and the hanger, I was like, that looked weird when it landed in the hanger. Like it's some, something, something about it, you know?

[01:16:37] MURRAY: yeah.

[01:16:38] JOSH: Oh, well, that's interesting because I read someone else on Twitter say that they thought there was something weird about the speeder and I didn't know what they were talking about and even just, , rewatching it again in, preparation

[01:16:49] for

[01:16:49] JONNY: think it looks too small.

[01:16:50] JOSH: I don't know. I didn't bump on it,

[01:16:52] MURRAY: Well, I was, I was thinking about like the maneuvers they're doing inside the building was like weird for me because I think I'm so used to like there the ships kind, obviously the room's bigger than the ships, but it's like for, for them to be doing like top gun esque maneuvers inside the building, I was just, I was a little

[01:17:13] JONNY: And the

[01:17:14] MURRAY: by that.

[01:17:14] JONNY: and the way one just kind of stays put, like, without moving, it's almost like, when did you think it'll be in constant motion type of

[01:17:20] MURRAY: you would

[01:17:21] JOSH: well, no, well, no, because

[01:17:22] JONNY: we're really nitpicking weeds right now. This is just nitpicking.

[01:17:27] MURRAY: wars.

[01:17:28] BRACEY: it's this

[01:17:30] JOSH: yeah, well, so no, not to get all, star Trek on you, but a T 47 is not a spaceship. It's a speeder. Right. So, so, so, so when it is inside, it's not like,

[01:17:40] JONNY: jet

[01:17:40] JOSH: it can hover. Yes. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. And then, they follow the rules of the universe.

[01:17:45] Like when they fly away, they fly into the hanger of a cruiser that's in the atmosphere because a T 47, again, a speeder, not a spaceship. It can't, it can't fly outta

[01:17:53] JONNY: it can't fly into space. That's

[01:17:55] JOSH: just saying so for all those,

[01:17:57] MURRAY: man. Bray. We're too cool for these people.

[01:18:03] BRACEY: don't rope me in with

[01:18:08] JOSH: um, uh, but yeah, I mean, I think those weird perspective things and those weird, lighting things with the volume stage is because it is so close to being photo real that like, Like you were saying, Jon, like if, they shot us against a blue screen and they had an old school matte painting composite behind them.

[01:18:23] We would see like, you know, the matte lines and stuff. Yeah. It's like, you would know what it is. It does not look realistic at all. but it , communicates the idea and looks so cool that you go with it. but the closer you get to photo realistic, the more those little things start to stand

[01:18:40] MURRAY: Like an uncanny valley of atmosphere rather than people.

[01:18:44] JONNY: You would just be like, oh, I know what this is. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm right. Yeah. It's like the idea of like, uh, especially when, back in the days of green screen, when like everything was in focus. And it's like, just because you could put it in there doesn't mean it should be in focus. It looks unnatural. You have to have some

[01:18:55] MURRAY: you lose your like death. Yeah. Yep.

[01:18:57] JONNY: you know, but I think that was never a problem with the volume, cuz they did that wonderfully with Mandalorian.

[01:19:02] But uh, but you know, sometimes these things come

[01:19:05] BRACEY: It's a different sun.

[01:19:06] JONNY: you

[01:19:06] MURRAY: Yeah. We we're like go these poor. Like people were probably like working to the bone. Got it out. Just under the deadline, making, like making little things like, you know what, I we're just gonna have to let it go. We, we don't have enough time to render this, but it works. And then,

[01:19:21] JONNY: Aren't exposed.

[01:19:23] MURRAY: these four guys are just sitting there like, uh,

[01:19:25] JOSH: no, but to, but to be, but to be completely honest with you, that is 100% true. And that's also something that I love about it. Like I love the volume stage, because of what it allows you, to do so well so quickly, so, without the volume stage, we would not have this show and we would not have all these other shows.

[01:19:45] The only reason that we're able to, , is because of this, technology,

[01:19:49] MURRAY: no, it's very true. It's just like, and again, like, we're not saying the show sucks. We're not saying it's bad. It's just like, but that's also part of our viewing experience is we're gonna notice this stuff as,

[01:20:00] JOSH: No, and we're discussing it and this is the place to do it. And I just thought I would, uh, you know, remind you that a T 47 is designed to operate an atmosphere and not in the vacuum of space. That's all I'm saying, guys.

[01:20:09] MURRAY: I'm going to watch, I'm gonna watch the episode again.

[01:20:12] I'm gonna write down every CG artist and compositor. I'm gonna give you the list and I think you owe them an apology

[01:20:17] JONNY: There you go. I, I think it's because we, as a, as a podcast, we look at things, uh, very much through a filmmaking perspective, which I think is lost on a lot of people. Like I, you, you posted the thing, uh, you shared with me, like the, somebody made like a deep fake of like young an or as old Anakin as Vader when he is dying.

[01:20:38] And I commented on it about how I kind of preferred the original version, because it, it changes the meaning of everything and some guy and some guy comments. Yeah. I, I, no, I actually, I thought it was very impressive. I thought it was very, I thought it was, I was like, this is a really good exercise. Like, this is really cool, but, um, but uh, some guy commented on it and he was. well, he's not supposed to be old. He's only 45 years old. And it's like, you're not looking at it from the perspective of a movie made in 1982. You know, it's like, and like, he's looking at it from like everything that exists now, why doesn't it? Why doesn't it line up to now? And it's like, because you cuz they was no, now they didn't know how old this guy was supposed to.

[01:21:22] But anyways, I think that's the whole point of what we're talking about is like, we're talking about deadlines, we're talking about what they could do with cameras. We're talking about the technology that's available. And so, you know, we notice things from time to time,

[01:21:36] MURRAY: from time to time.

[01:21:37] JOSH: From time to time.

[01:21:39] JONNY: to time,

[01:21:40] JOSH: oh, goodness. All right. Closing thoughts, Bracey.

[01:21:44] BRACEY: I think I'm gonna be sad. There's only two more episodes

[01:21:47] JONNY: know.

[01:21:47] JOSH: dude,

[01:21:48] BRACEY: think I'm actually gonna be like, kinda longing to see this again.

[01:21:55] JONNY: Uh, I almost said, Obi-Wan, you and McGregor a joked that at, at the convention, he was like, you know, like maybe I'll see you in season two and everyone went nuts and I was like, please let there be a season

[01:22:05] MURRAY: yeah, I'll take it. I'll fucking take it. Yeah.

[01:22:09] BRACEY: Uh, yeah, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm excited for the next episode and, um, I'm I'm yeah, I'm just sad that, uh, we're already so quickly at the end of, of this. We've got one, one last, I think we've got, uh, one ramp up with Reva. I think we're gonna see a nice fight between, uh, Obi-Wan and Reva next episode,

[01:22:28] And then, uh, uh, and then the final showdown with Vader, which I think is gonna be something, something to, to cherish so that,

[01:22:36] MURRAY: be cool.

[01:22:37] BRACEY: looking forward to it.

[01:22:38] JOSH: Indeed

[01:22:39] JONNY: I really can't wait to see the next two episodes. I, I have literally some, I, I could guess where they're gonna go with it. Um, but I think.

[01:22:49] Uh, there's gonna be things that are gonna happen, that we are, are not gonna be able to predict. And I feel like a lot of that has to do with Reva's position in the show, cuz Vader, uh, is there as a counterpoint and the grand inquisitor still might be alive, you know? Well, it's one of those things, but I'm very curious beyond all that action shit, which I love.

[01:23:11] Um, the show is all about character for me and I just love seeing. Obi-Wan's journey and even little Leia becoming more like Leia, uh, Carrie Fisher Le Leia. So, um, I just really wanna see the moment or the process of Obi-Wan transcending into something bigger than himself and, uh, being more of, uh, the Jedi master and the way that we remember as Alec Guinness and like, I don't even care about the ninja shit.

[01:23:42] I just wanna see him like have a personal sort of. I don't a moment or catharsis for himself.

[01:23:51] JOSH: Absolutely. , Murray closing thought.

[01:23:52] MURRAY: I'm, I'm so hooked on this. It hits me on so many levels of emotions of my mental being, thinking. It's just great. So I'm definitely gonna tune in I'm thinking. That GaN is going to impart something onto that he's going to say in the last, um, battle with Vader, which is gonna rock Vader's world.

[01:24:19] And that's why he was, but the learner, like he's gonna say something cuz Anika knows who qu gun is. Like, it's the whole thing. So like I think whatever insight he's gonna get from qu gun, he's gonna use almost against, Anique not like against him. You know, in his favor to, to escape and that, I think that's where that they're gonna recon that line from.

[01:24:40] Um, New hope in. Yeah. So I think it's gonna, I think that's gonna be the case. And then I was just thinking, I made the joke about writing down all the graphic artists and stuff that were on that. The thing I bet you, we could probably track down some on, in, on social media and get them on this podcast, cuz it's not like tracking down you and McGregor no offense to the things, but like I bet you, we could do like you like can see what yeah.

[01:25:06] I mean,

[01:25:07] JOSH: See what you can dig up

[01:25:08] MURRAY: how great would that be? Because they could tell us how they do

[01:25:11] JOSH: No, of course

[01:25:12] MURRAY: the, yeah.

[01:25:13] JONNY: and let's get real here. Like we're, we're, we're talking about, we're like nitpicking a Porsche, man. I mean, it's just like, like the things that they're doing is in they're

[01:25:22] MURRAY: no, but if it, if it doesn't make.

[01:25:24] JONNY: would love to

[01:25:25] JOSH: this, like, this is not

[01:25:26] JONNY: Yeah,

[01:25:26] JOSH: I mean, I can't say it's not a nitpick because I think, this is the literal definition of nitpick, but it's trying to negative. It's I'm just like,

[01:25:37] MURRAY: yeah, no, I get it. And yeah. It's like,

[01:25:38] JONNY: It's it's like, it's like real academic it's like real question,

[01:25:42] JOSH: Yeah. It's like, I when you're a kid and you have a remote control, , car and you take it apart cuz you wanna see how it works and then you,

[01:25:47] MURRAY: I think it's great, but I also think we're the reason why we get like jokingly defensive of is cuz we live in a society that if something's not a hundred percent perfect, then it sucks and we hate it. Or if it's not, if it's not catered to me personally, if star wars is not catered to me in every aspect of it, then I hate it and it sucks.

[01:26:07] And it's nobody should watch.

[01:26:09] JOSH: I think we're going to see, Obi-Wan, try to not fully, bring Ankin back to the light side, but I do think he's, he's going to make an appeal and give Ankin a chance to come around.

[01:26:23] Do the right thing, you know, if for no other reason than to, be dead certain that, he's

[01:26:27] MURRAY: machine than man.

[01:26:29] JOSH: Yeah. because, that will, give the line Vader has in Return of the Jedi more meaning when he says, , to Luke, that Obi-Wan once thought as you do,

[01:26:37] JONNY: exactly. And I, I think that, that goes with the idea of, um, what, uh, Murray was alluding to before with like, . He's like, I dunno, planting the idea of like Qui-Gon's teaching into Anakin in that moment and being like, Hey, remember, remember, Qui-Gon the guy that discovered you, the guy that believed in you, like the, the it's still possible for you Anakin in some way to still attain the light,

[01:27:02] MURRAY: more powerful than we could ever be. And he still sees hope

[01:27:05] JOSH: just had a crazy thought. Do you know what would be really crazy as if. Uh, to

[01:27:08] JONNY: Reaches out to and.

[01:27:10] JOSH: No. Well, to tie it all into what we were saying before, about how Obi-Wan is sort of learning how to have a connection and like how to be wouldn't it be crazy if, somehow, either from Qui-Gon himself or from what Obi-Wan says, , to Vader slash Anakin if that's what.

[01:27:27] contributes to what he does in Return to the Jedi and why and how he's able to reappear as a force goes at

[01:27:34] JONNY: I, I think, I, I think that's what they're gonna do, cuz I think that's gonna be in his brain for the rest of his life until his death. Um, whether or not he's actively training on it or not, or, you know, you can, you can say some bullshit, like, oh, he's the prophecy Messiah dude. So he's really good at this shit.

[01:27:50] But like, but I think you're right. I think he that's gonna be in his brain kind of like how. When at the end of the empire strikes back when Luke chooses to jump off the ledge and leave Vader, that changes Vader. I think their final confrontation of sorts in this show is gonna change Vader as well, which is gonna make a much more of the Darth Vader of the new hope than the rage filled dude, in this show, you know,

[01:28:17] MURRAY: no it's and the, the tension for me is that all, all we know is that, uh, Obon can't die. Right. That's the only solace that we're given, but because of well, and like, yeah, but because of the mods and the, the tank and everything like that. Anything could happen to we one, like he could lose his arm, he could lose anything.

[01:28:35] And then it's just, uh, so he's not completely safe from, from harm. Um, so that, that gives some stakes and then same with Leia. Yeah, of course she's gonna survive and stuff like that, but it's, uh, I'm wondering if they're going to, um, Almost kind of like Harry Potter ask, like, uh, when they, the, the aunt and uncle will try to make him not realize that he's a wizard, because if they're looking for people that are for sensitive, like, so if they're hunting for, for sensitive, maybe it's something that they, they work on keeping under control. Cause she's so forced. She knows that she knows she has the four, like she's like getting it.

[01:29:12] And so for her to not act on it at all, up until she's in space, like, it's just,

[01:29:18] JONNY: it's funny because I never really thought about I it's. I think that's a really interesting thought, but I never really thought about a threat of. Luke or Leia just randomly floating a rock by accident or something like that. I feel like they do. I feel like you kind of just explain it right there with Luke.

[01:29:36] I think Owen and Baru are really stifling Luke on purpose. And because he's stifled as we've see it, OB won. If you stifled yourself, you're not gonna be able to free yourself, you know, uh, with your powers and everything that being said with Leia. It's a great excuse because they just say like it's political savvy charism.

[01:29:56] and so everything that she does in the show is not about, like, it's not about, uh, tangible things. It's about intuition. So they could just say she's really intuitive, you know? And she could read people really well. And so she might just think that without even thinking about it,

[01:30:11] MURRAY: And she doesn't know. She has

[01:30:12] JONNY: she doesn't even know that that's partially the force, you know, and same thing with Luke.

[01:30:17] He could be really good at piloting without realizing that like that's partially the force. He's just thinks that he's awesome, you know, in a

[01:30:23] MURRAY: He thinks he's wizard.

[01:30:27] JOSH: All right, my guys on that note, if you like what you heard, please visit trash pod trash com goddammit, please visit trash . Please visit trashcompod.com where you can rate and review the show. And. Find us at trashcompod on Instagram and trashcompod1 on Twitter, and we will see you on the next one for Obi-Wan Kenobi Part 5.