[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to this special bonus May the 4th edition of Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. We've decided to mark the occasion of the 25th anniversary of The Phantom Menace with some highlights from past episodes where we discussed topics relating to Episode I First, you'll hear excerpts from our interview with Dan Madsen, the former head of the Lucasfilm fan club, publisher of the Star Wars Insider, and the organizer of the very first Star Wars celebration, on his experience as the interface between Lucasfilm and fandom during the hype leading up to Episode I.

[00:00:32] Then we'll hear pieces of our chat with Dr. David West Reynolds about his experience as co-editor of the Episode I teaser trailer, his insights from working with George Lucas, and what it was like inside Lucasfilm during that exciting time. And then, a fun little anecdote about the first time yours truly saw Episode I with my friend Chris.

[00:00:52] That's right folks, it's a Clip Show. Remember Clip Shows? I used to hate them, but now I miss them. I think we should go back to 22 episode TV seasons. Um But that's another, that's a whole other topic. Uh, but seriously, these are clips from some episodes of the show that I'm really proud of, so I'm pleased to have the chance to highlight them again.

[00:01:12] And we will be dropping our next full episode on Tuesday, May 7th, all about George Lucas's very first feature film, THX 1138. So be on the lookout for that. And without further ado, here is Dan Madsen, followed by Dr. David West Reynolds, followed by myself and Chris Reminiscing. I hope you enjoy.

[00:01:32] DAN MADSEN: you know, I, I flew out to Skywalker Ranch many times, in those early days. and I. Given the chance when the script was completed to, basically sign my life away and be taken into a room, lock the door and sit down and read the script, long before anybody ever saw it.

[00:01:59] Um, so I would've an idea of what it was that I was gonna be able to work with. and then as things started progressing a little, we started doing updates with Rick MacCallum, who was the producer on the prequels. And Rick graciously would, give me time. Every issue he'd give us updates, what's happening, what's going on.

[00:02:16] You know, he'd tell us about getting, you know, all the sets are starting to be built, you know, um, at leaves and studios and on and on and on. And, um, and then he invited me out to Skywalker Ranch. One day I flew out there and he took me up into a special room up in the top of the, the main house where George's office is.

[00:02:36] And there was even a special knock he had to make on the door, you know, to get in. And when I walked in, it's almost like Willy Wonka. You walked in and there's all these artists. Working on the designs for the new prequels. and there's maquettes and Little bus. It's the first time I'd ever seen Jar Jar Banks.

[00:02:55] There was a, a bust, of Jar Jar sitting on a table. There was artwork, you know, all over the place showing what certain things would look like. storyboards on the wall. and I was introduced. All the various artists. That's when I first met Doug Chang, who was there working on projects. And, uh, Rick took me around and introduced me to everybody and pointed this out and pointed that out and said, this is what this is.

[00:03:19] And then sat me down and we watched some computer animation of what one of the scenes might look like. And, uh, yeah, it was, um, I, I felt really like I was on the inside, I was privileged. I was seeing things that Star Wars fans would kill for, you know, and, uh, but you know that therein, Josh, is why it was so important to paint the picture that I was not only a fan, but a businessman.

[00:03:44] Because if they thought I was some crazy fan, they would think, oh my gosh, he's gonna go out and he's gonna spill the beans to everybody. But they knew I was profess. And as a professional, I could keep my, my enthusiasm, you know, under wraps and, and be professional about all the things I was seeing and being able to think about how I could utilize those for doing new magazines, doing new products, uh, working with licensees.

[00:04:14] So that was, uh, that was a real exciting time. For me to be involved with Lucasfilm.

[00:04:21] DR. DAVID WEST REYNOLDS: When the trailer comes along, of course we've got to have the hottest trailer editor in Hollywood. And who is that? We make calls. It's a guy named Mark Mrnka. He's the best.

[00:04:37] And they brought him to Skywalker Ranch. And the VP of Marketing wanted him and me to cut that trailer. I was there to represent my generation of fans. There was no committee making this trailer. There was Mark and there was me. And we worked for the VP of Marketing. And he would give us our marching orders, and then say, Go make this, make it magic, make it work. And it was up to us.

[00:05:06] And, like, I remember the day when the VP came in, Mark and I had the concept for the trailer, we were talking about it, Mark wanted to do this slow reveal opening. So you don't even know what's going on at first and we're just gonna let the music signal that wait a minute, wait a minute, where are we? So that's, that's Mark's vision and we all liked it.

[00:05:27] And then the VP I think it was his idea, that we need some text on screen to draw us in. We don't want a voice, we want the text. And each of us wrote one of those lines. and it just, it was like. Yeah, it should be like bang and then and then bang and then every saga has a beginning And we just looked at each other and thought that's right.

[00:05:49] It was right the first time we didn't change anything

[00:05:52] DAN MADSEN: One of the times that I was at the ranch Rick said, come here, I have something I wanna show you. And so I followed him and we went to the back of the, the main house and we open a door and we go into a big editing bay. And sitting at the editing bay is George Lucas and he says, George is editing the final.

[00:06:11] Trailer for episode one. he says, George, can we show it to Dan and see what he thinks of it? And George says, absolutely. So I sit down and there's Rick and there's George both looking at me while I'm watching the trailer. and I'm like, oh my God. You know, I'm watching the very first new footage from Star Wars while the creator of it is sitting here looking at how I'm gonna react to it.

[00:06:35] And of course, I was floored. I was enthused. And by the time it was done, I told, you know, I, I turned to George and I said, I got goosebumps right now. I said, this is, this is incredible. I said, it's, it's so different, but it's still familiar to me.

[00:06:50] DR. DAVID WEST REYNOLDS: All of those storytelling decisions, we would talk through together, how much to show. How much do we reveal?

[00:06:57] So that they'll see, wow, yes, we're still going to see new amazing things that we haven't seen before. And how much is spoiling it? Because we don't want to spoil it. And so Darth Maul's lightsaber was a big debate, but it was just between us. we didn't have to please someone else, we had to please

[00:07:13] ourselves. So the question is, does it have artistic integrity to create a trailer for the movie that he and I, and others like us, I wish this was going to be, and neglect to show those elements that would have signaled very clearly it's not quite going to be that.

[00:07:30] Like the slapstick, or those accents, things like that. And it was a very conscious decision. We debated every bit of that. And we chose to do what we did, not knowing whether people would end up resenting us for that.

[00:07:47] DAN MADSEN: I was enthused about it when I, saw the trailer. I was excited about it when they had a licensing summit prior to Episode One coming out and all the licensees were invited to Skywalker Ranch, and I was there. And we watched a few scenes, particularly the pod race scene,

[00:08:02] we got to watch on the big screen. so right up until, you know, the movie, I saw the movie for the very first time in the theater and that was, I had about a hundred employees at the time the first movie came out, and so Lucasfilm had a special screening of it for us at a theater in Denver, and we literally closed the company down for an afternoon and bused all of the employees over, and they got to go in and see The Phantom Menace before anybody else did.

[00:08:28] And it was only after the end of that. And I can remember, you know, thinking, okay, there's some things in there I'm not sure I'm crazy about. I can remember talking to, my editor of the Insider at the time, John Snyder, and we were both the bit in denial. I said, well, that was really good, don't you think?

[00:08:44] He's like, yeah, I, I thought it was good. What do you think? Yeah, you know, we were kind of like, not trying to say, well, there were some disappointing things about it.

[00:08:52] DR. DAVID WEST REYNOLDS: George understood that there was going to be disappointment and even backlash back in, what, 1997? 1998? George is saying to Rick McCallum and a couple of other people that you're not going to like this, but I am making this movie for my kids. That's what I'm doing. So there are going to be a lot of decisions that you're not going to agree with, but that's the movie that I'm choosing to make. And boy, when I was talking with him in his office and we got near this topic, I was so passionately a fan of what they now call A New Hope. That was the perfect myth to me, and it was, it was elegant in the way that it was presented.

[00:09:38] Its simplicity was purity rather than superficiality or thinness. The simplicity was earnestness, which is what you need at a certain period of life to give you something to believe in. So for me, it was balanced just right. And I was saying something about that. And it for, for George, it was not like that at all.

[00:10:02] No, no, no. That movie was not at all what I intended. This is what I intended. Episode 1 is what I intended to do with Star Wars from the beginning. It's supposed to be light, it's funny, it's got jokes, it's for the kids, it's Flash Gordon with better effects and maybe a little more content.

[00:10:20] And none of that was what I wanted to hear from my idol.

[00:10:24] DAN MADSEN: I don't think George could have given us anything and that people wouldn't have found some sort of disappointment in, you know, it's like The Second Coming of Christ, you know? I mean, how do you top Star Wars? And there have been these years since the original movies and the fans were so hungry, and when are we gonna see new Star Wars?

[00:10:43] The best time ever to be a Star Wars fan was in those few years building to Episode One because the anticipation and the excitement of the fact that we were gonna finally get to see some new Star Wars movies.

[00:10:56] I've never experienced Star Wars fandom, anywhere near the excitement and anticipation that it was in those years building up to Episode One.

[00:11:06] And I don't know that you'll ever see Star Wars be that exciting ever again.

[00:11:10] DR. DAVID WEST REYNOLDS: it was a special time because there had been so long since there was any new Star Wars. There was so much expectation and hope, because it was hope, and to be at the center of that we ended up feeling like we could do anything. Give us a trailer, we'll cut it. And give us, we need to do a teaser poster. Who's got ideas? Ellen Lee up in the art department, she's got this idea that what if we have Anakin, the little kid, on Tatooine, and his shadow is Darth Vader. And it's the little kid with the big shadow.

[00:11:43] That comes in, you know, there's a big printout of what she's done, that comes into the Brook House, and we just think This is awesome! This is amazing! Yes! That's because it was made here at Skywalker Ranch by people who love this, who care about the artistic integrity, who believe in this relationship we have with the audience.

[00:12:04] She's inspired by that. She's not trying to do something to sell more posters. She did that because she was honoring the creativity that she got to work around all the time.

[00:12:14] DAN MADSEN: There was a lot of, things set down in The Phantom Menace that I think, set the future of Star Wars going forward. , One thing I can tell you for a fact is that I think some of the best music that was ever in a Star Wars movie was in the Phantom Menace. You know that Duel of the Fates theme still gives me goosebumps every time I hear it.

[00:12:32] Darth Maul is an amazingly cool character and everybody commented, it's like, man, he wasn't in the movie nearly long enough. They killed him. What the heck? You know, and so we've seen obviously Darth Maul return and he is one of the most popular characters now. Um, and, and I think another thing, Josh, that is a credit to The Phantom Menace and it shows how there were the beginnings of, and the foundation of the new era of Star Wars is, is look at the Obi-Wan Kenobi series that was on Disney Plus. I mean, they essentially took, you know, that story as it ended in, in the prequels and brought, you know, brought us back to Obi-Wan and brought Anakin back.

[00:13:14] And, you know, I mean, I think it showed that there is still a lot in The Phantom Menace that can be admired and enjoyed and it had a, a real impact on the future of Star Wars storytelling. That's its legacy in my opinion.

[00:13:31] DR. DAVID WEST REYNOLDS: George was the only one who had a perspective 20 years into the future. And he was saying, I'm making this movie for people that are children now, who are not going to see my full vision of 6, until many years from now. And then there's going to be this complete cycle of art, where you can start at number one, seeing it as a little kid,

[00:13:53] and go through the sequence and end up with the powerful business with Luke and Darth Vader and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. And that's gonna just score because I've set it up in a way that you won't really see that coming. Because it's this cutesy kid movie. It's jokes. It's, slapstick.

[00:14:11] That was completely deliberate on George's part and it didn't matter if the rest of us didn't get it.

[00:14:16] And I think back to the fact that when he was casting Anakin Skywalker, it had come down to there were two kids.

[00:14:22] There was Jake, who was this charming, likable kid, and there was this other kid who was similar appearance, but had a little serious edge to him. A little bit of haunting. Everybody wanted the other kid. George was 100 percent sure that he wanted Jake. And so, people reacted to that in the way that they did. But in the distance, we can see George is telling a story about a kid who was not someone with a seed of darkness in him to start with. It was Jake Lloyd, this purely charming, pleasant person. I was the person that gave him his tour of Skywalker Ranch. He's a likable guy.

[00:15:01] So, my perception of Anakin was colored by the fact that I liked Jake. We all wanted the other guy. George understood what I'm trying to tell is the story of someone who gets crushed and corrupted who did not have that seed in him to start with. That's the point is this could be you.

[00:15:18] It's not guy who's dark and doomed from the beginning. Life can beat down and crush and ruin any of us. That's what he was trying to say.

[00:15:28] So I think we're seeing this in the theater because George Lucas had a bigger vision than any of us could wrap our heads around at the time.

[00:15:36] DAN MADSEN: As we're seeing now, you're seeing the people that grew up with the prequels and that a lot of the fans these days are starting to have a much less harsh view of those prequels, particularly Episode One. George always has the last laugh.

[00:15:51] DR. DAVID WEST REYNOLDS: I only respected him more the more I dealt with him because I see, he's got foresight that just goes way beyond the rest of us. So he was making this art for a generation that hasn't even happened yet.

[00:16:03] I mean, he's making it for people that will be able to see it like your kids. That's really who he's thinking about. And as difficult as it was for me and others like me at the time, to swallow the fact that our beloved artist wanted to make a different movie than the one we wished we were making. That was very hard because we all had expectations and we had grown.

[00:16:26] We wanted a story to challenge us as adults, deepen us as adults the way you deepened us as children.

[00:16:35] And you talk to the kids, they liked it. Roger Christian asked his kid when he'd seen Phantom Menace, you know, What's your favorite character? It's Jar Jar! It worked. George is right about what appeals to that age. That was his audience, not us.

[00:16:50] And so I let go.

[00:16:52] So, I think now it can be evaluated on its own merits and it's really interesting that I think his vision is being vindicated.

[00:17:00] JOSH: It's very difficult for me to be objective about this movie. Like I can be objective about this movie, , but there are parts of me that, , don't really want to be. you know, and then when you realize that it's like, it's like kind of up to you actually what you, think about it.

[00:17:22] And when it comes to movies, you have no obligation to be objective. So when you realize that, you kind of get to decide you like something or not, regardless of its quote unquote flaws. That's actually kind of freeing. I'm not necessarily, tipping my hand here.

[00:17:38] Uh, my feelings about this movie are quite complicated. But, Chris, what are your memories and associations of seeing Star Wars Episode One?

[00:17:46] CHRIS: Uh, I feel a little badly, uh, sharing these just because I feel like I'm poaching you, Josh, since we saw it together. We went and we saw the midnight showing of Phantom Menace, I can't, no, it, it, it wouldn't have been the midnight showing, would It

[00:17:58] It

[00:17:58] would've been earlier than that.

[00:18:00] JOSH: so I don't remember exactly who was with us. We were online. We lined up for the Midnight show. Uh,

[00:18:07] CHRIS: And we were just there super early. Cause I remember it was day.

[00:18:10] JOSH: Well, we were there super early I think we went right to the theater after school, so it was

[00:18:15] like late afternoon. We were lining up for the midnight show, and I don't know if you remember this, , but one of the employees, I guess saw us outside and it was just us

[00:18:26] CHRIS: Yeah.

[00:18:26] JOSH: who were lining up this early and they were like, are you here for Star Wars?

[00:18:29] This is like eight hours. Like, whatcha are you

[00:18:31] CHRIS: and. .

[00:18:32] JOSH: One of the employees, sort of was incredulous that these four kids were lining up outside and he was like, you know, we're about to screen it for the employees right now. Do you guys just want to come in and see it? And we were like,

[00:18:44] JONNY: That's amazing.

[00:18:46] JOSH: do we ? So,

[00:18:47] so,

[00:18:48] CHRIS: we say.

[00:18:48] JOSH: So, yeah, so we got to see it a little bit earlier.

[00:18:50] I mean, I'll beit a few hours early, so,

[00:18:51] when the movie was over, we, of course we went outside and got back in line

[00:18:55] CHRIS: yeah. Cause there actually was a line at that point.

[00:18:58] JOSH: Right at that point there was a line. Chris, do you wanna, tell the, most embarrassing part, at least from my perspective.

[00:19:04] CHRIS: There was literally nothing embarrassing about this experience. Josh, I no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a guess at what you felt was embarrassing and I think in the moment maybe, I think I was just, I was, I was riding too high on. because here's the other thing that people I think need to know ahead of time.

[00:19:20] We absolutely bought tickets for 12 consecutive showings of this movie, y'all 12. 12. So we knew going into this that we had gotten off of school.

[00:19:31] HAL9000: That's absurd.

[00:19:32] CHRIS: midnight showing, we gotta see it early. And then we knew we were coming back first thing the next morning and they had it because movie theaters were expecting those sales.

[00:19:40] So we were there first thing in the morning and we watched every showing. Just back to back to back to the point where like we, I mean, we knew the movie backwards, forwards, sideways by the time, but I also fell asleep during one of the songs.

[00:19:54] But I loved it. I remember our friend Andrew did not see it, but he was in love with the Matrix at that time, and I insisted Episode One was absolutely better than the Matrix. Absolutely. I really, I just, I really enjoyed it. It hit for, at that age, for somebody who had not gotten new Star Wars for a really long time outside of reading the books, um, for somebody who also hadn't really experienced it in theaters outside of, the special editions, and even one of those, I think I. . Um, it was just, it was magical in a lot of different ways. and at that age I was still enjoying seeing characters like, oh my God, it turns out Anakin built 3P0. Like those things all landed for me at that age. I didn't see it as heavy handed, so it hit all the right spots for me. Um, I did, I love that movie and really, and still, uh, that score, that score Duel of the Fates?

[00:20:43] JOSH: Yeah, do.

[00:20:44] CHRIS: absolute, magic.

[00:20:45] So,

[00:20:46] JOSH: Yeah. one thing I don't think that anyone can argue with the score for this movie is, fantastic. I think John Williams, it's among the best work he is ever done.

[00:20:56] CHRIS: I agree. I used to like blare Duel of the Fates in my bedroom with the window open and my mother was very, very worried the people on the street might hear it and think I was listening to I think she called it demonic music, .

[00:21:09] JOSH: Yeah. Wow. A whole, a whole flood of, a whole flood of memories are coming in. But, um, I wanna ask you guys, I could be crass and I could ask you if this is, if you think this is a good movie or a bad movie, but I'm not gonna ask that

[00:21:19] CHRIS: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hang on, hang on. Because Josh, I also, you have not yet shared your first viewing of the movie

[00:21:27] because I No, you didnt.

[00:21:29] JOSH: I

[00:21:29] CHRIS: That was

[00:21:30] JOSH: was yours.

[00:21:31] CHRIS: mm-hmm. . You saw it before? I did.

[00:21:33] JOSH: Oh, were you not there for when they let us see the

[00:21:35] CHRIS: No, I was there for that. You saw it before then.

[00:21:38] JOSH: I did?

[00:21:40] CHRIS: You did. You didn't, you didn't tell us because you didn't want us to be like, you, you, you wanted to be there for like our first time too.

[00:21:49] JOSH: I swear to God, I have no memory of what you're talking about.

[00:21:52] CHRIS: You saw it with Jordan.

[00:21:54] JOSH: How did we see it?

[00:21:55] CHRIS: I don't remember. I just remember this was something that we had discussed because we had a big debate. You and Jordan were on one side. Dave and I were on the other side, and the argument went that you can't kill somebody by stabbing them with a lightsaber, because as long as you didn't have anything vital, it would

[00:22:11] cauterize everything, everything on the way out and you and Jordan were insisting and Dave and I were like, no, this is quote the science of it. And y'all were very, very confident. And the reason you were confident was because you knew how Qui-Gon died.

[00:22:24] JOSH: This is ringing a bell.

[00:22:26] CHRIS: This was very, very specific. Now I remember Josh, you and Jordan went to a a Star Wars weekend. A Star Wars thing, which I think you talked about on another

[00:22:35] JOSH: But no, but they didn't show it at Star Wars Celebration. In

[00:22:38] CHRIS: Then yeah. I'm not, I'm not sure when you, I just know that you, like, you were both very secure in that argument and Dave and I kept insisting otherwise, and you were like, You, you couldn't be swayed.

[00:22:49] And then we saw the movie and you were like, yeah, that's how Qui-Gon dies and that's how we knew that like a stab with a lightsaber kill you.

[00:22:54] JOSH: Wow. What this means is that I literally don't remember the first time I saw this movie.

[00:22:59] Yes, it's true. I actually don't remember the first time I saw Episode One, which is incredible to me since its release was one of the, it really was one of the biggest events of my life at 14, 15 years old. And now, 25 years later, it's lost like so many tears and rain. But that's middle age, I suppose. If you liked what you heard, please check out the full interview with Dan Madsen from episode 32 at Trashcompod.

[00:23:31] com slash 32, our full interview with Dr. David West Reynolds at Trashcompod. com slash 43, and our supersized two and a half hour episode on The Phantom Menace where we're joined by the famed fan editor Hal 9000 at Trashcompod. com slash 33. Please give us a follow at TrashComPod on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, and we will see you on Tuesday, May 7th, where we go back to the true beginning and bring you our discussion of George Lucas's first film, THX 1138.

[00:24:04] Until then.