THX VIBES: A Discussion of THX 1138

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, and today we're going to be talking about George Lucas's first feature film, THX 1138, and the short student film it was based on. And joining me today to talk Thex and Luh and Sen is our most frequent contributor, making his 19th appearance on Trash Compactor.

[00:00:20] Welcome, Johnny.

[00:00:21] JONNY: Hello.

[00:00:23] JOSH: Can you believe it's been 19 episodes?

[00:00:25] JONNY: I was shocked by that. I was like, to me, they almost seem like five. That's kind of,

[00:00:30] JOSH: we've done a lot of these.

[00:00:31] JONNY: it's a bit bizarre.

[00:00:32] JOSH: And making his Trash Compactor debut, he is one of the proud founding members of the Red 5 Podcast Network, the co host and resident Star Wars expert of the Scarif Scuttlebutt Podcast. Welcome, Ro!

[00:00:44] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I feel welcomed. It's good to be here. And thank you very much for the invite. Uh, I have been looking forward to this for a long time. Not, uh, in a galaxy far, far away, but, uh, we'll make do with what we have. But it's gonna be a lot of fun. I appreciate, uh, you guys, uh, having me on.

[00:01:01] JONNY: Of course.

[00:01:02] JOSH: No, well, thanks for joining Us, and, um, maybe not in a galaxy far, far away, but definitely Star Wars adjacent.

[00:01:08] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yes.

[00:01:10] JOSH: we're kind of getting into the guts of Star Wars and George Lucas here. Uh, for the uninitiated, here's the logline for the film THX 1138, uh, from IMDB. In the 25th century, a time when people have designations instead of names, a man, THX 1138, and a woman, LUH 3417, rebel against their rigidly controlled society. And from Wikipedia, THX 1138 is about a dystopian future in which the citizens are controlled by android police and mandatory use of drugs that suppress emotions. I think between those two, I'd say that's a pretty apt description of this, of this film.

[00:01:49] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Sounds dark and foreboding.

[00:01:51] JOSH: No,

[00:01:52] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: think, uh, George Lucas had a, uh, a special insight there, to some, to some degree.

[00:01:58] JOSH: he definitely did, and I know, coming at this, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but my first exposure to this film was via Star Wars. I was a Star Wars fan, and then I think I was a freshman in high school. I knew of this movie, um, and then I saw in TV Guide that it was playing on, I think, TCM in the middle of a school day, and I set my VCR. And I was really excited to run home and watch it, and I started watching it, and I'm not embarrassed to say I was quite, um, mystified. I didn't quite know what to make of it.

[00:02:29] JONNY: Yeah, especially at that age. Um,

[00:02:33] JOSH: I'm gonna go ahead and say I didn't cry, but, uh, not because there's anything wrong with crying, but, um, I would say I was probably more mystified than anything else. but, uh, let's start with overall thoughts 1138 and Roe. I want to start with you. You're on this episode, I should note, because I put out a call on Twitter for the biggest THX 1138 fan out there, and you were one of the first, if not the first, to reply.

[00:02:58] So, Ro, why are you such a big fan of this movie?

[00:03:01] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Well, I think for obvious reasons, it's George Lucas first movie. I remember watching, actually I remember watching his college version of this film, which is, um, To a certain degree, the college film creatively, I think, is a little bit I'm going to venture to say it's better because of the things that he did in, in that movie.

[00:03:28] you know, I, I think, it was the only college film that was, processed in color because he had access to, a military photo lab. He made some friends and connections, there. And I think everybody else was just doing black and white film and doing their little experimental stuff.

[00:03:45] But I think , the original film has such an insight to George's technical abilities That it made me a fan right away and obviously watching, you know, a big budget version of THX 1138 I'm a big fan of George Lucas. I'm a big fan of American Zoetrope you know him and his buddy Francis Ford Coppola, you know getting together and and and starting up that company and and making movies. It was one of my inspirations for everything that I have done career wise. , obviously you'll. Hear that George Lucas or Star Wars inspired me to do X, Y, and Z. But, really, this was one of the, the films that I took in as almost like a textbook of filmmaking.

[00:04:31] I think I learned a little bit more about what makes George Lucas tick.

[00:04:35] , especially from a I don't know, from a science fiction perspective, , being a science fiction fan, I, I thought this film had some interesting things to say, um, both character and, and technical really. I think George Lucas is more of a technical director as people have, uh, you know, mentioned before.

[00:04:56] And I think learning some of those things from this movie, I think I learned a lot about the technicality of filmmaking that I took to heart and I think I learned something about myself that parallels George Lucas as uh as a college student

[00:05:13] JOSH: very well said. That's a very interesting answer. And, kept thinking how much in common we have. I should have had you on the podcast a long time ago. You should come on all the time. Thank you. Um,

[00:05:23] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: just let me know where

[00:05:24] JOSH: we will definitely return to the comparison between this feature version and the original USC short, but, Johnny, what are your overall thoughts on THX 1138?

[00:05:36] JONNY: I actually agree that I feel like this is kind of like a really good insight into George Lucas's sort of point of view. the way that he, uh, handles everything in his future Star Wars movies and stuff like that, I feel like can be seen here. Technically, I feel like it's incredibly impressive to watch, to see what he did with such a small budget and using those, uh, kind of like stark, real locations, wherever they were.

[00:06:00] I guess, where were they, those locations? Like those stark,

[00:06:03] JOSH: they were in and around San Francisco, like, um, the unfinished subway tunnels and a lot of, different, buildings and, sort of like the infrastructure of San Francisco circa 1971.

[00:06:13] JONNY: I think I remember reading that, like the ladder he's climbing is like the unfinished Bart Tunnel or something like that. but no, I thought it was, I thought it was, uh, really enjoyable to watch. I feel like if you really want to know, like, George Lucas, the artist, I feel like this is the film to watch.

[00:06:27] like it's the heart of everything moving forward from then on out. I Kind of felt it was, it was a little ironic in the storytelling of how it's about this guy who, uh, him and his partner get off their meds and they find their passion and they're becoming more human again.

[00:06:44] But the movie's perspective seems to be very observational and clinical, so it's like a lens a passionate subject. And I thought that was kind of interesting because how much of that is just like putting things through the lens of, say, like a bureaucratic sort of, world that they live in, or how much of it is just like George Lucas himself is kind of aloof.

[00:07:09] And he thinks this is really passionate, but I see it as just very sort of clinical, which I thought was an interesting question while watching it.

[00:07:17] JOSH: Well, you know, it's interesting you say that. There's a documentary on the Blu ray, it's a making of featurette called, Artifact from the Future. And the name comes from, Walter Murch and George Lucas are both talking about how their approach to this was really, you know, Not making a movie, set in the future, but they were more trying to make a documentary from the future, about this future world, right?

[00:07:42] And the idea was, it doesn't really matter if you understand everything, because it's just sort of like you're a fly on the wall, and, you know, this thing has washed up on the shores of time, and, You just sort of watch it and it's, it kind of is what it is. It's from this world and you, get parts of it.

[00:08:00] You don't get parts of it. But like for me, the best thing about this movie, and I don't mean this in like a derogatory way, but this movie is like, is just a vibe,

[00:08:10] JONNY: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:08:12] JOSH: he's able to create this, mood to end this. for lack of a better, term where like the story and the characters are communicated through cinema.

[00:08:23] It's, you know, George Lucas talks about, being interested in experimental and avant garde films when he was in college, and this is sort of like, pure cinema kind of fused with narrative filmmaking, and that's why it's great. You know, Ro, you brought up the short film.

[00:08:38] I think the short film is more effective when all is said and done, because I don't think There's anything in the feature that is not just as effectively done in the short, if not more effectively done in the short, because again, like, in terms of, creating a mood and a vibe and a sense of ideas through, pure cinema, like, the sound and the picture and the, juxtaposition of those things, like, the short. is really so well done in that regard, like, to blow it up to feature lengths, and I'm saying this as someone like, I love this movie. I think it's really fantastic. you know, the last time I watched it, I don't know if it was the state of mind I was in or what, but I really, connected with it in a very strong way.

[00:09:23] it just really clicked with me. and that was sort of, I think, the insight. I took away from it. I was sort of like, you know, if you're watching it the way you watch a traditional narrative film, like, you're not going to pick up what it's doing most effectively. It's about, it's about vibes. It's vibes.

[00:09:38] It's, it's basically my point.

[00:09:40] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you said, the, the term, the, the movie from the future. I always wonder what George Lucas would have been, , how his filmmaking would have changed if he didn't do Star Wars. Especially watching the, the, the student film, I think He had a lot of stuff to say.

[00:09:57] I think, uh, the avant garde, I think the pure cinema is, is also something worth mentioning. you know, these films have no exposition, no explanation. I remember hearing an interview of his, of his saying that, uh, you know, there's certain things that he just shot. that he, he could explain them in his head, but he didn't have to explain it to the audience because this movie came from the future.

[00:10:20] It's the audience now, you know, in 1971, when the movie was released, that is watching it and trying to interpret it. So I think, you know, from a purely cinematic aspect, the visuals, the, the editing, the framing of, of certain shots, certain scenes, it all, contributes to a narrative that is completely vibe.

[00:10:43] And like I said, I always wonder what George Lucas would have been as a filmmaker. If he didn't get caught up in American Graffiti or Star Wars or helping, you know, with, uh, Apocalypse Now, him and Francis Ford Coppola had a business to run, you know, they did THX, uh, it wasn't received well, a lot of money was lost, they were trying to, you know, they were trying to make, you know, trying to be filmmakers, but it's, it's interesting, I, you know, if I had a time machine or, you know, You know, a portal or something.

[00:11:11] I'd love to see what George would have come up with if he continued on, on that trajectory of just doing these, uh, experimental films. I don't know if he would have been, commercially successful and I don't think that was his goal when he was younger. I, I don't think anyone who makes a film like that original THX 1138 wants to be, commercially viable, but still I would have liked to have seen, you know, what he would have come up with.

[00:11:38] JONNY: Yeah, I think that's really interesting because when you really think about how you go from THX and then you have American Graffiti right after that and then if you kind of combine both of those aspects together you get Star Wars in my opinion. But what I think is interesting is how Star Wars blew up into something bigger than anyone could have ever anticipated and I feel like so much of the way people, take in or consume Star Wars now and I feel like a lot of the, uh, Star Wars storytelling now is basically that.

[00:12:09] It's storytelling and it's a lot of content and lore and plot and this character and that character and this and that and like THX is so not that. And so, I feel like if there is anything that's been lost over the past, how many decades since, uh, THX, it's that initial sort of, pure artistic value of, like, let me just see how this feels.

[00:12:34] Like, You know, like, cinema is a, is a painting, so, like, you can just kind of, like, watch it, let it marinate in you, and then have a discussion about what do you think it all means. And, like you, I've often thought about, like, what if Star Wars didn't consume George Lucas's life after that?

[00:12:50] And what if he would have went back to maybe, um, weird art films with Coppola or getting more in touch with Kurosawa before he passed? Like, I just wonder. What that would have been like, like, filmmaker, auteur, George Lucas that wasn't just, the god of Star Wars.

[00:13:06] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah. And, and, and, And really real fast. I mean, there's, there's a lot of elements in Star Wars that are present in THX, even the, the original film. You know, we, we talked about how, you know, certain things were either shot or presented, not explained, you know, the easy stuff that comes to mind is when, you know, Obi Wan and Luke are mentioning the Clone Wars, and it's just a line that was said in passing.

[00:13:32] It's like, what? You know, as a seven year old kid, you're like, Clone Wars? What's that? You know, we don't find out what that is until way later. Those characters know what the Clone Wars are. They know what they're talking about. It's just that we don't, but we get to find out later.

[00:13:46] So, It's a great way to communicate through, through cinema, and I think that's, uh, that's definitely, um, you know, one of George's

[00:13:55] JONNY: Yeah, and I find that, um, at least from my perspective, when it comes to watching any sort of movie, uh, when, when people don't try to explain something, Because the characters know already what it is, so why would they explain it? I think, uh, another frequent guest of our podcast, , Josh Murray, he talks about this when I think he was talking about like writing and like Hemingway follows this sort of rule where it's like, if two characters in one of the stories make a joke that's like an old joke from 15 years ago in their world, they won't explain it to the reader what they're talking about, because they know.

[00:14:30] Why would they be like, Oh, remember that joke that we made up like 15 years ago? and there's a lot of that in THX, and there's a lot of that in Star Wars.

[00:14:38] And um I miss that a little bit. And so I feel like THX is like fun in that aspect. When you, you know, you see like Robert Duvall, like Godfather Robert Duvall before the Godfather. And he's carrying this red cube home. And you're like, what the fuck is that? And it's like, is it his, what, is it his dinner?

[00:14:55] Is it, it doesn't matter. He knows what it is. He knows what he's supposed to do with it. And he does something about that. And it's just like, I, I like those little touches, where it's like, it doesn't matter what that cube is, it's just, this is just how weird his world is, you know? And then that, while watching it, not to go on a tangent, I was thinking about like, how George Lucas, who famously hates directing and directing actors, how he conveyed all this to Robert Duvall.

[00:15:21] And like, I wonder how Robert Duvall approached a lot of these scenes and if he had to do a lot of internal work by himself, or if George Lucas just told him one scene and he's like, okay, I know what you mean, and then he just went for it.

[00:15:35] JOSH: Well, it's interesting you mentioned that because once again, I'm gonna reference that documentary on the Blu ray, Robert Duvall, he's interviewed in it, and he said that he really appreciated George Lucas direction because, he would leave you alone,

[00:15:48] JONNY: doesn't have too much direction, so he just did whatever he felt was right.

[00:15:51] JOSH: yeah, and I hear this from different actors, some actors really appreciate a director who kind of gets out of the way and lets them do their thing, and only, like, steps in if there's like a real course correction needed, but beyond that, they trust them to do the job that they hired them to do.

[00:16:08] And it just seemed like from how Robert Duvall was explaining it, he found the experience of doing THX and being directed by George Lucas, uh, very liberating. He said that he had a great time.

[00:16:18] JONNY: that's great. Because, uh, it's interesting because I feel like a lot of visual directors like Ridley Scott, you know, James Cameron, some other people, they kind of have a similar approach. Like, I think Ridley Scott says, like, the casting is so important, because once you cast the right actor, he doesn't really have to direct them, he just lets them do their thing.

[00:16:35] and I was watching the scene where he's being tortured in that cell, and, and the guys are kind of like, talking about like, alright, put it up to eleven, and like, he spasms, like, oh no, bring it down to four, like, oh, Jesus Christ, Jim, oh, I'm sorry, and I was like, that must have been such a fun thing Robert Duvall. and as an actor, you can just tell that he's really going for it, it was almost like watching him do like, acting exercises just caught on film and put into a movie. So, I mean, how often do you get to do that in a movie?

[00:17:04] JOSH: That scene in particular, I think this was from the commentary track, I could be wrong, but that scene of the two guys, the two voices I think one is sort of like showing the other one how to work the equipment or whatever it is, like that's about, they um, they hired, a couple improvisers from a local theater troupe and just recorded them, you know, riffing for like an hour to get chatter that they could scatter throughout the movie and that, so that whole exchange was a totally improvised, bit that the actors came up with.

[00:17:37] JONNY: Brilliant. And it, and it works well with the callousness of like, the drugged up society that doesn't feel anything, because clearly, it's like he's a, like a science rabbit or rat being experimented on. and they just feel like nothing for this guy, and he's clearly in pain.

[00:17:52] And it's both horrifying and funny at the same time, which is kind of disturbing.

[00:17:58] JOSH: Yeah, this movie is kind of disturbing.

[00:17:59] JONNY: Oh yeah.

[00:18:02] JOSH: there are definitely aspects of THX that are present in Star Wars, and I think the main one for me is, kind of this exploration of the relationship between humans and technology, and, I was wondering, when I decided I wanted to do an episode about THX, it's like, you know, why now?

[00:18:18] Why is this movie on my mind so much right now? And then I realized pretty quickly, it's all the stuff going on right now with, AI, or at least what we're, calling AI, but how it's, just sort of hastening the dehumanization of people, in the face of, technology taking over more and more aspects of our lives.

[00:18:37] I was wondering like, do you think this movie has more relevance, more resonance right now for our present moment than, say, three or four years ago?

[00:18:47] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I would say yes and always. I think, you know, mankind struggles with technology, I know a lot of focus has been put on artificial intelligence, recently, but, you know, I mean, take a look at when this movie was, was released.

[00:19:01] I mean, the student film 67 and the feature film 71, and they were talking about humanity and, machinery, kind of reminds me, you know, again, another aspect that's in Star Wars, when, you know, you have, uh, humans. We'll call it, the rebels, fighting against this machine that is the Empire.

[00:19:21] And obviously we can kind of, correlate, Obi Wan telling Luke use the Force, don't use your targeting computer and all that stuff. I mean, those are, those subliminal, you know, ways that George is kind of, telling, humanity to be careful. You know, science fiction writers have been talking about this sort of thing for, for a long time.

[00:19:39] but it is definitely, I think, cyclical. , You know, as, as the technology grows and as we ebb and flow with the understanding of artificial intelligence, which is neither artificial or intelligent at this point, but as any good science fiction, I think it gives us the ability to kind of look at ourselves and our society through a microscope and really examine it through the, the stories

[00:20:06] these movies, of whatever it is that you're looking at, you know, science fiction wise, whatever movies are out there. You know, Terminator, iRobot, whatever. It's a fascinating thing. I always ask, guests when I have them on the show, like, what is it about science fiction in general that That really fascinates people.

[00:20:23] And I think it really is, it comes down to the examination of humanity and our role in, in reality in society.

[00:20:32] JONNY: and I also think that this movie will be relevant, like always, because it's not only just technology, but it's also just the look of, authority and, doing what you're told, which is just universal since God, since civilization, basically. You know, with technology and especially with AI, it's like, we're getting told, like, well, this is the way of the future, this is how it's going to be, you know, are we going to be replaced voluntarily, are we just going to walk through that and be like, okay with it.

[00:20:59] And at the time, this was made, because what, they started shooting that thing in late 69, and it finally came out in 71? So the Vietnam War was, like, at its peak, and you have Richard Nixon, and you have people going to war and dying on a daily basis, um, in high numbers, and then you see them at his job, and it's like, Oh, today was a good day because we only lost 200 people today, instead of, like, the other place that lost 300 people, and it's like, oh, that's not so bad.

[00:21:25] And I imagine some people at home were hearing reports about Vietnam, maybe, and thinking similar things, where it's like, oh, only, like, 50, 000 people. Soldiers die today, not a hundred, it's a good day, you know. So, it was relevant then, and it will just keep being relevant until the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, because it's both parallels of technology and authority.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:45] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah, totally agree.

[00:21:47] JOSH: Well said. You know, on that note, we just did an episode, not long ago, with this kind of AI explosion. I kept finding myself returning to this question. I kept wanting to know what George Lucas thinks about generative in, creative pursuits and, like, filmmaking and stuff, because a lot of his movies really place humanity above, technology, yet he himself is, you know, an early adopter, a pioneer of new technologies, and, you know, long story short, I posed this question and somebody replied, you know, to know what George Lucas would think about AI, all you have to do is watch 1138. And, yes and no. I'm not sure that that's true. because in this movie, he's clearly, lamenting the, loss of humanity in the face this, regime. Society that relies on, technology to maintain order or whatever. you know, like you were saying, Jon, like, he's he's a filmmaker that's very interested in the technical side of filmmaking.

[00:22:45] interested in the toys. He loves, to fix and race cars. He loves, you know, He loves machines, and I think that's why, so much of his work is really about that, relationship between humans and their machines, and, he's definitely not against technology.

[00:23:02] So I'm wondering, like, based on this movie, what you think it is he's against.

[00:23:06] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah, I don't think that he hates machineries or technology. And here's the thing, I think it's the duality of, of mankind too. I mean, we're, we're afraid of something until we understand it and then we're using it till we're blue in the face.

[00:23:19] I mean, this kind of, illustrates that point. you know, on the surface, obviously, you take a look at a film like THX 1138, whether it's the theatrical release or his student film, and it is kind of scary. I mean, you are thrust into this dystopian world where freedoms are curtailed, um, you know, etc, etc.

[00:23:37] But, you jump forward and George Lucas is using all the technology, all the bells and whistles to fix a movie that he did, you know, in 1977, you know, 20 years later to make it better. When we are able to understand the tools that we are using, I think the fear kind of slips away.

[00:23:54] And now, obviously, George Lucas is one of the pioneers of digital filmmaking. It's a little weird dichotomy there. Uh, the, duality of, of an artist per se, but really the duality of, of mankind. , it's interesting. I think, uh, again, you know, THX It's an understated film, in the archives of George Lucas.

[00:24:13] I think a lot of people may look at it and not understand too much of it, or kind of just gloss over the surface level message of, uh, you know, technology bad, you know, humankind must survive. But I think there's more, you know, if you dig a little deeper, there's a lot more there.

[00:24:31] JONNY: I think, if I just have to whip out an opinion out of nowhere, I think with all these movies, a common thing, uh, that he has with technology is that, um, it's not so much whether or not technology is good or bad as much as, like, not having human input or, like, a soul. So, like, I think automation, without any sort of human decision making scares him.

[00:24:54] The society in THX, it's all very automated and humans are encouraged not to feel anything. So that's what scares him. I think it's, like, not feeling anything and just letting, like, programs and algorithms make decisions for us. when you look at Star Wars, the droid army they're an automated army.

[00:25:12] They're bad. And the reason why the clones are better is because they're actual people making decisions. But he loves the technology so it's like, George Lucas, I feel like, is always pushing technology with filmmaking because it allows his paintbrush to be more sophisticated, and it allows his easel and canvas to be more sophisticated. Look at all these colors I can use, and how many different ways I can make these things, but you still need the artist to hold the brush. You still need the artist to put the pen to paper, or something like that.

[00:25:42] So as long as a human, or something with equivalent human behaviors behind it, uh, I mean, I'm pretty sure you would even be okay with, like, synthetics and replicants from other sci-fi universes, because they all are basically the equivalent of humans. but, but once you just have, like, a soulless automated factory popping out decisions in society for us, I think that's what scares him.

[00:26:03] JOSH: You just made me think of, , that line that Threepio has in Attack of the Clones, in the Droid Factory sequence. He sees what's going on, and then Threepio has this line, Machines making machines, how perverse.

[00:26:14] JONNY: because he was made by a person. yeah.

[00:26:19] JOSH: um,

[00:26:20] JONNY: interesting. And you said, you know, nobody likes to be told what to do. And I think, uh, you know, when it comes to, you know, Having, you know, automatons making decisions for you, it's also a little George Lucas. I think, you know, George Lucas wanted to be a filmmaker, artist, extraordinaire.

[00:26:38] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: His father wanted him to be a part of the family paper company business or whatever it was up there in Northern California. He wanted no part of it. He didn't want to be told what to do with his future. He wanted to race cars and make, movies and stuff like that.

[00:26:54] So yeah, it's interesting, but like I said, I, I think nobody likes to be told what to do, how to do it, how high to jump, when to go to bed, when to eat your green beans, you know, all that stuff, you know, it's, uh, Again, it just kind of reaches into the you know, the, the primordial notion of, of mankind and our exploration of self.

[00:27:14] That's a,

[00:27:16] JOSH: And you almost kind of get the sense from watching this movie, I just really started thinking about this, the last time I watched it, you know, I was wondering, who's actually running this show? Like, who's actually in charge here? Like, is it sort of like a, a council of like, robed humans?

[00:27:30] Or is it, a computer brain somewhere? And where I quickly landed I think they forgot. I don't think anybody knows exactly why they are doing these things. These systems are just still running because it's interesting, like the, um, the robocop as I call them, the, the Android, uh, police,

[00:27:49] JONNY: look really cool, by the way.

[00:27:50] JOSH: They look awesome.

[00:27:51] Yeah. they aren't in charge, and they are ultimately controlled by humans sitting in a control room, right? But where are they getting their instructions from? it just kinda got the impression it's, sort of this like, Kafka esque, bureaucratic, technocratic monstrosity that like, no one, no one's in charge.

[00:28:12] It's just sort of still running.

[00:28:13] JONNY: it's interesting watching it now in 2024, because we're in the 21st century now. When you think about what we thought the future was going to be going back to the days of the Jetsons, The feature is like, technology is so good that, , we would have more time and leisure to pursue the humanities and stuff like that.

[00:28:32] But in our current society, it's the opposite, where technology is so good that the expectations keep increasing, increasing, increasing. Now people are working 24 7 around the clock, So it's just one of those things where it's like you were saying, who's in charge of this system? The movie kind of reminds me to, to question, like, well, why are we doing what we're doing anyway, with even mundane jobs? Like, why, why do we have to work, like, 40 or more hours a week to do this thing, to make meager amount of money, to pay our bills, and like, who's in charge of this? How did it get, how did it get here?

[00:29:03] Like, we have so much technology, and food, and water, and at our access, and yet we're still, like, struggling to get by. Like, how did this happen? And I feel like THX is just like the exaggeration of that. Yeah.

[00:29:17] JOSH: Yeah. The Interesting thing, though, too, like, you mentioned, , the 40 hour work week , we all don't really think about why we work five days a week for 40 hours, but, like, it's a vestige of, you know, decisions that were made a hundred years ago that, people actually fought for, and, like, we live in this world where that's just natural, the same way that, people in this subterranean civilization of THX, they're all just like, I mean, this is the way it is.

[00:29:40] Like, the whole way that George Lucas describes this movie is about a prison with the doors open. you're a prisoner until You realize you can just leave, you have to have the courage to walk through that open door and see what's on the other side. And that's a theme he returns to in Graffiti, it's a theme he returns to, I in Star Wars.

[00:30:01] I've always considered, and I'm not the only one who has said this, it's not something super profound, but, THX and American Graffiti and Star Wars comprise a really effective trilogy on their own, all three movies have to do with choosing to leave your small world to enter a larger world.

[00:30:19] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I mean, you know, we, everybody talks about, Campbell's hero's journey. And I think we all, you know, we all have our own hero's journey, but I think, it's a prevalent theme in, in Star Wars, obviously. It's a prevalent theme in, in the three, you know, properties that you just mentioned.

[00:30:34] I don't think it's unique to George Lucas, uh, you know, he was, he had a very good command of, the concept through his background in anthropology and human studies and humanities and stuff. and, you know, obviously his relationship with, uh, with Campbell, but it's really interesting to you know, utilize that, non science fiction

[00:30:54] discipline to kind of imbue those themes into, a story that's got laser swords and

[00:31:01] JONNY: Yeah. And I feel like sometimes best examples of a genre are when someone, , gets involved to create something in that genre, but they never were like a super fan of that genre. And that's when you usually get the best stuff, you know? Like, everyone's going crazy over Andor, and Tony Gilroy was like, Yeah, I never really was crazy about Star Wars.

[00:31:21] And it's like, it's precisely because of that that he was able to make a great Star Wars. Uh, it's crazy.

[00:31:26] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Irvin Kirshner in The Empire Strikes Back, you know, he wasn't a big sci-fi fan, Yeah, I get it. I think the most important part is, you know, a lot of people say, Oh, you got to have a fan do, do the work. You know, sometimes you don't, you just have to have a good artist who is either a good writer or director, you know, be able to tell the story because I don't think it's necessarily imperative for any one particular genre , to have a, a showrunner or a head that is, you know, part of that genre, because sometimes, you know, you do get blinded a little bit.

[00:32:00] Sometimes you do get, distracted by the minutia of the science fiction, you know, all the details there, and then you forget to tell a good story. And I think whatever genre you, you know, you've got to start with that blueprint, that, that

[00:32:14] JONNY: Yeah, that's exactly it. Even with, like, talking about the new Star Wars stuff, I feel like it's kind of caught in that sort of, like, cycle of, like, fans talking about the content, talking about the lore, and it's like, you need outside perspectives to come in and be like, Well, here's just a story about people who are trying to fight tyranny.

[00:32:31] It has nothing to do with, like, whether Fred Jedi is the grandfather of Bill Jedi. It's just, it's, what was the story about? It's about fighting autocracy or something like that. And then from that perspective can make something great. I mean, even when you look at the original Star Wars, it's like, you can see Akira Kurosawa, you can see Lawrence of Arabia, you can see, uh, all the movies that inspired him to make a great movie that happened to be a Star Wars movie.

[00:32:58] what are we talking about with THX? Like, I wonder what those inspirations are for him. I mean, clearly he's, interested in technology on some level, but I kinda see that anti authority look. I kind of see a response to the Vietnam War, I see a response to Nixon, and I see him loving the avant garde, and so he just brings all that into this crazy fucking movie that no one's ever seen before.

[00:33:20] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah. And, you know, you guys mentioned the, uh, documentary on the, on the DVD. I think, if anybody, is able to grab that, THX, 1 1 3 8, DVD, it's the white one with Robert Deval in the, in the Earring thing. Um, first of all, my version came with an actual earring, the t, the THX earring. but there are so many wonderful, wonderful,

[00:33:45] Interviews and little behind the scenes documentaries on that disc. I usually keep it at arm's length because, you know, again, you know, all the behind the scenes stuff is, material that I kind of used almost as a textbook growing up, just learning as much as I could about, you know, ILM and George Lucas and all the the people behind the scenes.

[00:34:04] So wonderful, wonderful disc. if you can pick it up on Amazon, I encourage you to do

[00:34:09] JONNY: Great. And can someone remind me again who did the music for this movie? Because I was immediately struck by

[00:34:14] JOSH: Schifrin, who wrote,

[00:34:16] JONNY: Really?

[00:34:17] JOSH: he also wrote the Mission Impossible theme.

[00:34:20] JONNY: Oh, shit. All right, I need to look

[00:34:22] JOSH: Yeah, the music for this movie is actually really, really good. Um, because it really fits and enhances the movie so well. You know, it's not front and center the way that it is in say, Star Wars or even American Graffiti, but it is so effective.

[00:34:37] You know, he really understood the role of the music and what the music had to be for this movie and it really just contributes to that vibe that mood and that tone it's so it's really good to the point where i've actually been trying to track down the soundtrack it's um it was released i think in the 2000s and it's sadly out of print and to get a copy it's like several hundred dollars which

[00:35:03] i'm not about to shell out but

[00:35:05] JONNY: cause recently in my own life, I've been listening to a lot more atmospheric music and Tangerine Dream and stuff like that. So when this music popped off now, I hadn't seen this movie since, , college. So it's been about like 20 years since I'd seen the movie. And then so as soon as the movie started, I was like, Oh, this music's really good.

[00:35:22] And I kept noting it for the entire movie. I was like, who did this? What's the name of this guy again? So

[00:35:28] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah, you just made me go to eBay.

[00:35:31] JOSH: what's the cheapest price you see?

[00:35:33] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: 45 bucks. Um,

[00:35:36] JOSH: less than It's, it's still a lot for a CD, but, yeah, it is. 60 bucks, buy it now. 80, 84 dollars plus 25 shipping because it's from Japan.

[00:35:48] it's expensive. I don't know. sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and like I start scrolling on my phone and I look at stuff on eBay and I just, it's so easy. It's just one click and sometimes I end up, purchasing things when my will is weak, in the wee hours. It's just

[00:36:01] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I've done that with, , lenses and lightsabers.

[00:36:04] JONNY: Oh, God.

[00:36:05] JOSH: Lenses and lightsabers, that should be the name of a podcast.

[00:36:08] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: that should, I'm writing it down.

[00:36:09] JOSH: yeah. uh,

[00:36:12] JONNY: too, Donald Pleasence? Halloween fame? He killed it in this movie, and he was so disturbing in such a weird way. Earlier in the podcast I said how, um, he made a movie about someone finding their passion, but it seemed very passionless. This character, like, what the fuck is his deal in the best way possible?

[00:36:32] and talk about like, watching him from the clinical point of view where it's just like a scientist looking at like a, maybe like a, I don't know what, like a sociopath or someone who's clearly like mentally had like an episode before the movie started. And then we're just kind of like caught in the chaos of him.

[00:36:48] And even the way that he's like detained later, where he's just like talking to a kid and just kind of like, like he doesn't even know like what to do with himself, like when he's like out in public. I was like, this guy is so creepy and crazy, but like he's so Engaging to watch, I don't know, I just wish I was there the days they shot his scenes, I could see him like, work.

[00:37:08] JOSH: I want you to be my that's, uh, that's, uh, that's Donald Pleasence for you. I mean, he's, uh, commanding presence. I was watching some behind the scenes of, uh, Halloween and not that he stays in character, but it's, he's, uh, Definitely would have been wonderful to watch work.

[00:37:25] JONNY: Yeah, 100%. I was like, this guy is like a top tier, like, I was like, this guy is on another level.

[00:37:31] JOSH: I just watched an Outer Limits episode that he was in, and he was absolutely mesmerizing to watch. Um, The Donald Pleasance character, um, S E N, uh, 5241, I knew the S E N, I had to look at my notes for the 5241.

[00:37:47] Am I reading too much into. It? Or is he, is he coded as gay? I mean, like, is he,

[00:37:53] JONNY: I got

[00:37:53] JOSH: attracted to,

[00:37:55] JONNY: I got the vibe that he might have been gay for Robert Duvall, but what I did definitely pick up on is that it seemed like he killed his roommate? So that there could be an opening for Robert Duvall to move in with him.

[00:38:09] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Right.

[00:38:10] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:38:11] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Dahmer esque

[00:38:12] JONNY: yeah, and even to the point where at the end where, like, is he interacting with kids before he gets caught? Like, he kind of seems clueless. But when I was watching him, I picked up on that, Josh. I was like, he seems like he's being coded for being gay. But, um, which is like an old trope of, like, creepy scary gay guy, you know?

[00:38:30] JOSH: yeah, it seems like an unfortunate stereotype that I don't know if like, they were aware they were playing into, or if , Donald Pleasant sort of zeroed in on that and, and played it up

[00:38:40] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I, I almost think it's a pleasant, yeah. I almost think it's a pleasant thing. I, I, I can't, I can't imagine George Lucas, you know, putting that to paper. I think it's, uh, it definitely because of Donald Pleasance. Um, There's a certain little twisted aspect of his performances in all the characters that he plays that I think, I feel like, he kind of, tweaked this a little bit.

[00:39:01] but it's like, like you were saying, it's very subtle, but it's there for sure. Right,

[00:39:07] JONNY: while you were talking, I was picturing in my head, well, what if other actors played his role? And immediately Dennis Hopper popped into my head. And if Dennis Hopper had the same lines and the same scenes, I don't think he would have came off coded as gay. I

[00:39:19] JOSH: yeah, he would just seem like a, he would just seem like a psychopath.

[00:39:22] JONNY: exactly. So I feel like any other actor in that role would come off as a psychopath. So, to what you were saying, I feel like, Donald Pleasence probably made that decision, and George was probably fine with it.

[00:39:33] JOSH: Yeah, like, I have a hard time imagining them writing it that way explicitly, so, but I do then have to wonder, like, what was the intent here? And then it is sort of an interesting question, how would a society like this handle, like, a very smart, psychopath, right?

[00:39:50] who, like, knew how to game the system. the way that he says, he even says, like, you know, I'm very, good with computers, like, I can, program myself access for, you know, wherever, and it's kind of like how, this society has tried to program and, drug every, kind of, individuality and every kind of desire and variable and sort of leveled everything out, but, I think Donald Pleasance character is just showing you, you can't really nullify human nature.

[00:40:19] JONNY: Yeah,

[00:40:20] and I also think, too, um, even if you take the angle of him, , being gay for Robert Duvall, I think that in level, uh, triggers Robert Duvall, not necessarily because of his sexuality, but because of any sort of, like, feelings. is something that he's struggling to deal with. So if you, like, it's not just that, he's a psycho who could be dangerous, who's bothering him.

[00:40:45] He's also a psycho who could be dangerous, who might be interested in him romantically. And Robert Duvall is trying to figure out what feelings even are. So I feel like it would make him react even more so the way he reacted if he thought that he was being, like, wooed in any sort of way by a guy that uncomfortable.

[00:41:03] JOSH: I also think it freaks him out, too, because he's not used to somebody, you know, not following the rules,

[00:41:10] which, which SEN is clearly, demonstrating. His whole modus operandi is like, look how I can game the system. Right? And, like, what do you make of a sort of, like, floating agent of, chaos in a system like that?

[00:41:25] It's

[00:41:25] JONNY: Yeah, well look how, look how Robert Duvall, at his most angry, is just like, um, I'll report you. You know? And then he reports him, he's like, that'll do it. And it's like, and, you know, Donald Pleasence is like, well, I'm fine, report me, it doesn't really matter. You know, he's still gonna flip through that. And Robert Duvall's like, oh, you're, you're making me so mad, I'm gonna write this sternly worded letter and send it to the government and see what they do about it.

[00:41:50] Instead of actually, like, trying to kill them or, mess them up in some more violent or straightforward way.

[00:41:55] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Next week we should come back and talk about, uh, George Lucas's, uh, statement that, that might be controversial. The, the, the aspect of, I guess the machinery or the, or being controlled as almost a religious artifact. We've got, you know, obviously the character of, of Olm or the, the almighty.

[00:42:15] You know, Overseer. I was looking through some pictures here. And I'm not sure if you see it in the movie. It's, I think it's a behind the scenes thing. Robert Duvall, And, Donald Pleasence are sitting on a bench in the white room. And, , there's some graffiti up in the corner that says, Ohm is a hologram.

[00:42:32] And again, I, I'm not sure if that's in the film. I don't remember it in the film, but it blew my mind. I'm just looking at it now. I'm like, wow. I mean, it tells you a

[00:42:43] JONNY: that's great! Like, the whole idea of, them being in prison and someone kind of just, like, figuring it out, that, like, this is all bullshit. But it's so, like in the background and I even paid attention to, which is very much in the vein of the movie.

[00:42:55] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Mm hmm.

[00:42:56] JOSH: Well, it also makes sense, too, because they can have the truth, the reality of their situation right in front of them, but they can't accept it, because then the whole thing will fall apart. It's very telling, it's, it's, it's pretty profound that, you know, Donald Pleasence, who we've characterized as a psychopath, he's kind of a manipulator, he's kind of figured out how to game the system, when he has the opportunity to escape, he, he can't, he

[00:43:22] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Right. Mm hmm.

[00:43:24] JOSH: so even someone who gets off on, you know, the power, He's nothing without that system to manipulate.

[00:43:30] JONNY: that's exactly it. Because once he's outside of it, he's, useless. He's powerless,

[00:43:34] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah. And is, is he powerless because, you know, there's nothing to him or is he powerless because he just forgot how to be, you know, human,

[00:43:43] JOSH: I mean if he ever knew.

[00:43:44] Yeah,

[00:43:44] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: And, and that's really the, you know, again, that goes down back to the question that we all have, like, you know, what is it that makes us tick? Is it this or is it that?

[00:43:54] JONNY: With Robert Duvall, it's almost basically that, curiosity is what drove him.

[00:43:58] Like, knowing that there's, there has to be something else than this. And then when he finally gets out to the surface and you see the sun and the credits are rolling, it's perfect if the movie ends there because it's really not about like, what's he going to do now? It's just the fact that he did it. And like, he, he could in all probability starve to death or die from the elements like a couple of days later.

[00:44:19] but that kind of doesn't really matter. he just had to know that there was something else out there that's bigger than what he was living in. And then it's just the, the idea of hope and potential, you know? It's like, who cares, what happens to him after that? It's just that he got out.

[00:44:37] And like, that's, that's the thing that's important.

[00:44:41] JOSH: John, you invoked, Andor a little while ago. The prison arc of Andor, I got serious THX vibes

[00:44:48] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Absolutely.

[00:44:49] JOSH: that whole arc, so like, aside from like, the design of the prison, the whole idea that they're in a prison, the clothes that they wear, and even stuff not in the prison, like, the way that they utilized real world locations, like that same architecture, to create this, feeling of this authoritarian state. And then, when he's at work, you know, constructing the Robocops, it's like when Cassian and the other prisoners are building the parts for the Death Star, literally helping to build the instrument of their own oppression.

[00:45:17] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yes. Yeah.

[00:45:18] it's too coincidental for it to be a coincidence, but I wonder if, uh, you know, Gilroy did have, Lucas's THX in mind, or if it's just kind of a, a weird, you know, universal theme, that runs through. I don't know, certain, certain stories.

[00:45:36] and then, you know, the, um, the prison stuff, was not you know, a short, story arc in Andor. It was, pretty much, uh, you know, a large component of the story. so it's, it's interesting to kind of think that. I mean, there's a lot of, you know, besides the visuals, there, there are a lot of parallels, like you mentioned, regarding the two shows.

[00:45:53] Never, never, never really thought of it.

[00:45:55] JONNY: Yeah. And, uh, I think that prison arc is like the heart of the whole story of Andor. Why they do what they do. And there's, there are a lot of parallels, even just with the characters, like, uh, Andy Serkis is not a psycho, but he's terrified of leaving the prison because he knows the system, and he has to hope that the system is gonna work, and so when he realizes that he's never gonna get out, and that there's, that they're killing the people or cycling them back in, he has basically like a panic attack, and, just that whole idea of like, these people thinking they're in something that works a certain way, and then to a certain extent it's like, maybe they kind of forget that there even might even be an end to their sentence. Like, they just accept that like, this is the way life is now. And they're just happy to get their tube of food every single day, and that's it.

[00:46:46] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: the sequel to THX 1138 could have been that middle prison in Andor. if they escape, they come back and recycle through. So, how's that for subverting expectations?

[00:46:59] JOSH: it's like a, it's like a Twilight Zone. It's terrifying. What version of the movie did you watch? I assume you watched the special edition version that came out in, like, 2004? That had the

[00:47:10] JONNY: I saw the one with all the new special effects.

[00:47:13] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yes, I think I did. It's, it's, whatever the white one, the white DVD is, with the side of, Duvall's

[00:47:20] head.

[00:47:20] JONNY: It's pretty obvious when it happens, because all of a sudden they'll just be like, crazy streetcar shots, or like, the, funny creatures, and I think even when he's doing the work on the robots, when he's dropping the core, it's all like digital and crazy special effects. Didn't really bother me that much, though.

[00:47:36] I, I think if I had to choice, I'm kind of a purist, I'd always like to watch the original way things came out in the theater. But, at least the changes in this, I thought tonally weren't jarring compared to maybe some other changes that have been happening in the Star Wars movies.

[00:47:51] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I, I would agree. Yeah.

[00:47:52] JOSH: I don't know, it drives me up the wall. The like, the, um, one shot, you alluded to it, of the car where it's sort of like, weaving in and out of traffic. the camera move is like so unlike anything else in the film. You know, I'm just like, what? What?

[00:48:10] JONNY: this is a whole other conversation about, like, restraints and matching styles and stuff like that, I know. I don't want to.

[00:48:18] JOSH: I don't want to devolve into a special edition conversation, but like, I just don't,

[00:48:22] JONNY: I will say this though, I will say this though, the scene when they get out of the prison with the hologram and Donald Pleasence and all of a sudden they get caught up with like a, a, pattern of, like, thousands of people, you can tell that they digitally enhanced it to add more people in the background.

[00:48:38] And that, to me, was very effective because it made it from one dreamscape, which is the all white room, to the equivalent of like a hellscape with like thousands of people going around and they're like salmon trying to fight the stream. And I was like, that was very evocative to me of just like, uh, pure anxiety and terror.

[00:48:57] Like, of like, getting caught up in the cog of like, their, their, their life again, you know?

[00:49:03] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Right, you look like you're in one of those prisons

[00:49:05] JONNY: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:49:08] JOSH: yeah, that shot, that sequence is more effective. The other sequence that, I have to admit is more effective because I didn't really understand it until I saw the special edition version was um, when uh, Robert Duvall is , watching that like, hologram sex show, and like, the machine is um, you know,

[00:49:31] JONNY: Jerking him off.

[00:49:33] JOSH: is jerking him off, um, that was unclear to me that that's what was happening in the original Yeah, so, I guess that CGI jerk off machine actually helped clarify something

[00:49:46] JONNY: that, that's the name of this episode, CGI Jerk Off Machine.

[00:49:50] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: There you go, yes. Description in the notes.

[00:49:53] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:49:55] JONNY: But yeah, I don't mind stuff like that when it makes things more clear, or more, specific, more precise, but I didn't need all the fast paced car shots, but they were so short that like it didn't really matter to me. It wasn't like, uh, all of a sudden he put in a bunch of like dick and fart jokes that didn't fit.

[00:50:13] Like, it's like, it just didn't fit. It all tonally kind of fits.

[00:50:17] JOSH: Yeah, I mean, the thing about it, though, with this movie in particular, is that it, it is such an artifact of its time. It's like, you know, it's the future, but they have, like, punch cards and, and, and, Like meters and,

[00:50:31] JONNY: Everything's analog.

[00:50:32] JOSH: everything's analog and it's like that works because, that's the aesthetic, that's the vibe.

[00:50:39] So then all of a sudden, like, when you have a shot like that, CGI car weaving in and out of traffic, it just, like, feels, for me, it just feels very unlike what's going on on either side of it, stylistically.

[00:50:51] JONNY: there was one shot that distracted me and ironically it wasn't any of the big flashy stuff, it was when they put the mind lock on him. And I think they CGI'd his eyes, like, rolling a little bit and stuff like that. And I was like, why would they do that? Anyone can do that normally.

[00:51:08] Like, why, was Robert Duvall not looking convincing enough, being in a mind lock? Like, I just felt like it was an arbitrary choice to make his eyes look more like they were rolling in a more extreme manner. And I was like, I don't know, that just seems a bit excessive.

[00:51:22] JOSH: I'm actually I wonder,

[00:51:23] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: yeah, I wonder if practically he just didn't want to wear, you some sort of contacts?

[00:51:30] JONNY: But I feel like we could all roll our eyes,

[00:51:31] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: But completely white though?

[00:51:33] JONNY: Not,

[00:51:33] not completely if, I don't know if we all, I don't know if we all

[00:51:36] but, but I'm trying to, but,

[00:51:38] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: He's trying now.

[00:51:39] JONNY: it's, it's just the, the image of anyone rolling their eyes up is obviously not normal, so it doesn't have to be completely white, but he was like, no, they have to be completely white, and I was like, well, who cares?

[00:51:50] Like, like, I don't think, I don't think anyone's gonna be confused if they saw his eyes wildly moving around and going up, that he's like, clearly having like a brain fart at that moment, you know.

[00:51:59] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm looking at, I'm looking at the altered image and it does look a little, you know, I think it looks creepier than, than the normal, uh,

[00:52:09] JONNY: More unsettling I guess.

[00:52:11] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: yeah, yeah. I'm okay with that decision, I

[00:52:15] JONNY: Nitpicking I guess.

[00:52:16] JOSH: yeah, I mean, like, my main thing is just, like, a larger issue that, like, I, like you, Jon, I am a purist. I think that, like, you know, movies are a product of their time, and I'm interested in seeing the movie the way that it was released, when it was, made originally, because as much as you try, like to remove the context from the time and the place in which it was made, it's an exercise in futility.

[00:52:38] JONNY: I mean Jaws would be very different if they went back and added like a CG shark. It's like, you gotta, you can't do that. You have to let it be what it is. From 1975, this should be from 1971. It should feel like 1971. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, like, I look at the Mona Lisa and I don't think to myself, why, how come it doesn't feel like 2024 when I look at the Mona Lisa?

[00:53:02] No, it should feel like, the Italian Renaissance. That's when it was made. Let it be the Italian Renaissance.

[00:53:08] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: The Mona Lisa, the special

[00:53:11] edition.

[00:53:11] JOSH: Um, uh, just a couple more things before I start wrapping up here, but, one of the movie's strengths that, is another reason why I really have trouble with the special edition changes is that, like, you know, this is a big sci-fi movie that really feels like it's in a sci-fi world.

[00:53:27] it's visually stunning. Not a lot of special effects in this movie. The way that they utilized real world locations, the way that the way George Lucas shot it, the way that he lit it, the way that he framed things, like, this movie was made for, it had a budget of 777, 000, 77, a few years later, you get Logan's Run, which is also a movie about a dystopian future with like an underground subterranean society, um, that costs nine million dollars to make. And, Logan's run today is like a punchline.

[00:54:07] JONNY: Yeah,

[00:54:09] JOSH: I mean, like, I love it, but not for its Like, gritty realism. It's like, very, hokey looking. And this movie is so successful at creating a fully believable, visually gorgeous sci-fi world of the future, and then to just all of a sudden like, throw in some CGI shots, like for me, it's like you're ruining something about it that was so special.

[00:54:33] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Yeah.

[00:54:34] JONNY: agree.

[00:54:34] JOSH: I actually got a very interesting insight, from an interview I did a couple episodes ago with, David West Reynolds, who's, um, the archaeologist who went and rediscovered all of the, Tunisia shooting locations for the original Star Wars, and he ended up, uh, working at, uh, Lucasfilm for a time, and he was talking with George Lucas about like his enthusiasm for like how well selected and how well shot those locations were in Tunisia, And George Lucas was like, no, it was awful.

[00:55:03] Like, I hate shooting on location. Like, don't have any control over anything. And like, you know, blah, blah, blah. one gets the impression that if he were to make this movie now, he would just create the whole thing in CGI. He'd create the whole city in CGI.

[00:55:16] JONNY: Yeah, I think that's, I, I think that's very true, just given the nature of the prequels. I mean, he

[00:55:23] JOSH: Well, yeah.

[00:55:23] JONNY: shot it all on the green screen because he could, and he likes it to be, um, easy, so he could just like create it in the edit, because post, you know, I think he just lives in post, and so if he can just shoot it on the green screen, he can make the background whatever he wants, and I think to him that's just the dream. We don't agree. I don't agree. But it's, it's just, um, that's just his way,

[00:55:50] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: That's his way. Yeah, I would hope that that was not the case. I have a feeling that you're right but, you know, the movie was shot in such a way that it did evoke some sort of claustrophobia. Both versions really. you know, credit to the cinematographer and it's funny, We, uh, play around with numbers, uh, you know, THX 1138.

[00:56:13] You see that number in Star Wars. You see it in American graffiti. Sometimes you see it in other non Star Wars movies as a homage to George Lucas and his legacy. but you know, getting, getting to the play of numbers, the, uh, the photographer, the cinematographer, Albert King was born on May 25th.

[00:56:33] JOSH: Really.

[00:56:34] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Can you, believe that? May 25th. That's so weird. Yeah.

[00:56:42] JOSH: not officially. Now.

[00:56:44] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Oh, I'm a purist. Star Wars Day is always May 25th. May the 4th. May the 4th be with you is, uh, some goofy marketing ploy that some executive said, Hey, let's sell some toys.

[00:56:56] JONNY: Ha ha! Ha ,

[00:56:58] JOSH: Closing thoughts on THX 1138. Are you glad you revisited it?

[00:57:03] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: no, super glad. tomorrow I'll probably, uh, pop in that DVD and, and watch it again.

[00:57:09] JONNY: Yeah, I was, I was very glad to watch it again. Um, I do wonder if it's more successful as a short film than as a feature film. cause my personal opinion on avant garde and art in general if you're gonna show me something that's more in the realm of art, I love the freedom of having the audience choose the amount of time of how much they want to experience it and walk away from it.

[00:57:33] And so with, with avant garde cinema, I feel like it's more demanding if you're gonna tell someone to sit still and watch it for a certain given amount of time. And a 45 minute short film, I feel like is a perfect amount of time for the story. This story was like a two hour long movie. And I remember feeling the time while watching it, because of the passionless sort of clinical perspective, it made it feel slower than it actually might have been if it weren't pulled through that sort of lens.

[00:58:05] So ultimately, yes, I love the movie, it's great. But, I also feel like, It might have just been more effective as a short film, and he lost it at that, but at the same time, if he did that, he never would have gotten all the other movies that came after that, I feel like.

[00:58:20] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: I would agree with you on the time length. yeah, again, I mean, it's just, you know, It's unique visually. I think, uh, you know, again, I said it at the top of the show. It it would have been intriguing to see George Lucas, uh, as a filmmaker sans Star Wars just to see where, where, you know, his voice would have taken him.

[00:58:40] Um, you know, and, and a lot of people, you know, you can argue that Star Wars was his own avant garde film. I mean, uh, you know, he had a lot of. Trouble, producing the first one and he wrote himself a check to do the prequels. So, I mean, he was his own boss, really. And that was, the way that he likes to work and the way that, a filmmaker, you know, at the beginning of his career works because, you know, nobody cares what you do.

[00:59:07] Um, but, as a multi millionaire filmmaker that, is doing work on the prequels his own way, you know, it's an, again, it's an interesting, it's an interesting contrast between the rich filmmaker. Who has everything at his fingertips and the student filmmaker who scratched and clawed for every piece of film that he could muster create even the short 17 minute version.

[00:59:34] Being able to go and have access to the photo lab and shoot weird angles so it looks kind of futuristic and all that stuff. I think, the language is the same for both, the big films and, and his, uh, student films. But, you know, if you're going to give credit to George Lucas, I think, that's definitely one aspect of his filmmaking that, people should pay attention to.

[00:59:54] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:59:56] JOSH: very well said. Um, yeah, you know, Star Wars, in a lot of ways, I think, , became kind of the, the tail wagging the dog, as it were, like, you know, conceptually, the original Star Wars, a part of the concept was, you walk in to, like, week four of a serial that's already going on, and you're just sort of thrown in the middle of it.

[01:00:15] Like, that's a pretty, High concept,

[01:00:17] experimental idea. And then, know, once it became Star Wars The Saga, I feel like even George Lucas felt kind of beholden to, finishing the saga. Like, making it a saga. Um, so yeah, I, you know, if Star Wars, like, had a respectable return and it, wasn't the, uh, cultural juggernaut phenomenon that it became.

[01:00:40] I, I wonder if we would have gotten, you know, a THX 1139 or, you know,

[01:00:46] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: ha ha,

[01:00:47] JOSH: something, I mean, not literally a sequel, but like more films in the

[01:00:52] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: sure.

[01:00:53] JOSH: of this

[01:00:53] JONNY: There's, I forgot that the movie starts with the same typeface as the Star Wars typeface. Like the green letters over black, you know, Lucasfilm LTV sort of stuff. Um, and then they immediately go into a whole Flash Gordon thing. And it's like, oh wow, like if I didn't know I was about to watch THX 1138, I would think I'm about to watch some sort of documentary about Star Wars.

[01:01:21] And like, cause that's the, the purity of what he wanted Star Wars to be, which is basically Flash Gordon. And so it's interesting to see, like, this really is, like, the, Proto Star Wars movie before he gets to his true magnum opus, you know.

[01:01:37] JOSH: absolutely. Well said. Um, I could talk about this movie another hour. The one thing that I will say is that every time I watch it, I get more out of it. And I think it's, best experienced with the mindset of just kind of let it wash over you and let it sort of do its thing.

[01:01:53] I mean, that I think is best way to kind of meet it. Where it's coming from. So, I want to thank both you guys, Jon and. Ro. Uh, Ro, where can people find the Scarif Scuttlebutt podcast and, and anything else you want to plug?

[01:02:07] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: Sure, yeah, uh, just uh, turn over to your smart speaker and tell Siri to uh, play the latest Scarif Scuttlebutt podcast. We are found uh, wherever you find your other favorite podcast, part of the Red 5 Network. You can check out the rest of the team at bio. link slash Red 5 or thered5network. com. I usually uh, drop uh, new episodes on Thursdays. and, uh, usually do some live shows on Saturdays, , at seven o'clock on the YouTubes.

[01:02:36] So, uh, yeah, come on over to the Scarif Scuttlebutt podcast whenever you guys want and, we'll hang out.

[01:02:42] JOSH: And that's the Scuttlebutt, as they say.

[01:02:45] RO SCUTTLEBUTT: They do say that, don't they?

[01:02:47] JOSH: Yeah, um, if you like what you heard, please consider following us at TrashComPod across all social media, including Instagram. Transcripts for this episode and all our other episodes are available at TrashComPod. com. If you're so inclined to rate and or review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or the platform of your choice, we would be eternally grateful.

[01:03:09] And we will see you on the next one.