THE CORPORATE ALLIANCE: Is Star Wars Art or Content?

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, and today we ask, is Star Wars art or content? Can Star Wars have any integrity as art as a Disney franchise money machine? Was it ever anything more than that under George Lucas? And can any film that's a product of the capitalist culture industry be true art or enjoyed as such? Joining me to discuss these thorny questions, he is a playwright, author of The Trade Federation, Let's Explore Globalization Through The Star Wars Prequels, who you can hear discuss that play on episode 19 of this podcast. His new play is Occupy Prescott, and it's available now from No Passport Press.

[00:00:39] Welcome back Andy Boyd.

[00:00:41] ANDY BOYD: Good to be here, Josh.

[00:00:43] JOSH: Thanks for joining us again. And he is a playwright, author of the award winning El Coquia Spectacular and The Bottle of Doom, which is about to mount its second production in January 2025 at the Longworth Theatre in Connecticut. Longtime friend and Star Wars fan, Matt Barbot. Welcome to Trash Compactor, Matt.

[00:00:59] Excited

[00:00:59] MATT BARBOT: to finally be here.

[00:01:01] JOSH: Yes, I'm glad we could finally work it out. I asked you guys on because I thought, as playwrights, as writers. you might have some interesting thoughts about this question. You know, Star Wars has always been, obviously, a for profit enterprise, but has something fundamentally shifted since it was sold by George Lucas to the Walt Disney Corporation?

[00:01:19] You know, is Star Wars just corporate product now, or was it always corporate product?

[00:01:24] ANDY BOYD: Yeah, um, I mean, as people who heard my earlier episode will know, my play The Trade Federation or Let's Explore Globalization Through The Star Wars Prequels imagines a world where I am pitching a Star Wars prequel to George Lucas that is, uh, called The Trade Federation, A Star Wars Story. Um, that kind of fleshes out the political implications of The Trade Federation in Episode One, um, and kind of argues that, what really needs to happen is that it needs to be even more clear that Episode One is a anti capitalist allegory about how the IMF destroyed democracy.

[00:01:57] Um, and it's a joke, but I also do sort of think, like I don't know that it's that specific, but I do think there is like a, an anti capitalist message in that film. I mean, it's sort of about how these like un, unaccountable, multi planetary economic organizations paved the way for fascism. I mean, that pretty much just is like the plot of the prequels, you know?

[00:02:19] I mean, and, and sure, like, there's sort of the implication that the Trade Federation is actually the sock puppet for, you know, the Sith the whole time, But the fact that it's an effective sock puppet, I think, does sort of imply that George Lucas is telling us something about, you know, the nefarious, uh, alliance between, uh, between capitalism and the far right.

[00:02:38] Um, so I mean, whether that makes it art, or if it just makes it propaganda is maybe another question. But, you know, I think there was certainly something subversive in some of the, the, you know, Lucas era Star Wars movies. And I also think that there's subversive messages in some of the newer, uh, you know, Disney era stuff.

[00:02:57] And, you know, particularly in Andor, which I think is, You know, I actually think a lot of Star Wars films probably owe a little bit of debt to, uh, The Battle of Algiers, but this one makes it like pretty explicit, you know, um, which is not to say that all of it, but it sort of, I, it sort of just reminds me of like Marvel comics, you know, like Marvel comics is a giant capitalist enterprise and most of what they put out is shit, but occasionally you get, I don't know, days of future past or something, you know, you get like a really profound meditation on, you know, the power of our choices and paths left untaken and, you know,

[00:03:29] whatever you want to explore.

[00:03:30] I, I mean, I think, these franchises have learned that, like, giving creative people a certain amount of leeway is profitable. You know, and sometimes that means that people want to say something that's a little bit, uh, a little bit anti corporate.

[00:03:44] And I don't think that's necessarily mutually exclusive, uh, with, with the fact that they are a corporate product. I mean, yes, it's true that like part of how capitalism works is that it kind of incorporates and kind of neutralizes, movements against itself. But in doing that, it also brings even a, even if it's a, you know, radically diluted version of that message, it brings that message to a wider audience, which I think you could certainly argue something like Andor does.

[00:04:08] you know, like, has there ever been a more prison abolitionist Star Wars movie, you know? I thought that was pretty great.

[00:04:16] MATT BARBOT: I think what you wind up with, with the Disney acquisition, is you have a lot more, um, it's less driven by a particular creator. While at the same time, it's a lot more visible. Um, I think, under Lucas, it was art, because it was like a guy,

[00:04:30] who had ideas and, a lot of money and no one to tell him no. was all the product of a very singular vision and he had the things he wanted to say with it. I think, like, you get a lot of, you see a lot online of, like, you know, keep politics out of Star Wars, and meanwhile George Lucas is naming Trade Federation officials after Republican Senators, so, like, there's not, like, uh, you know, and, and calling Nixon the Emperor, so there's not, like, a lot of, like, It's difficult to make the argument, I think, that under Lucas it wasn't art.

[00:04:54] I think what you have now is that a lot of the sort of ancillary material is, uh, or ancillary? I always get that word wrong. The other stuff, is a lot more visible to people than, like, the EU was, you know, You know, hit or miss. There was some good stuff in there, and there was some stuff that was weird.

[00:05:11] Uh, and there was some stuff that was half good and half weird. and now, think there's a sense, that the problem has been that Star Wars is unfocused now. That Star Wars is like, it's just, it's just a cash grab.

[00:05:26] It's like, it's nothing but like, uh, like they're pumping out content. And I think that's really just because, uh, The stuff that like, I went to go buy at the comic book store every Wednesday, uh, is now like, in people's face on the Disney Plus homepage. I think like an interesting question, uh, that this also raises is like, whether, like, to how, to what extent does like, whether it's art or content matter to Disney?

[00:05:48] and I do think that like, it seems to matter a lot to them. That people liked Andor a lot more than The Book of Boba Fett. that seems to have, like, had an impact on them. and so, you know, Beau Willimon, uh, was just named, Beau Willimon, who is a great playwright, but also wrote for Andor, was just announced to be, working on the, on the, on the Rey movie, right? so I do think that these moments of where they realize that, to speak to Andy's point, the risk taking, the, the sort of, allowing for a little bit more leeway on the part of, like, individual artists to kind of, like, cook, um, is, like, paying off for them in ways that they maybe, I don't think, realized coming off of a string of Marvel successes, which are also dwindling

[00:06:32] now.

[00:06:33] ANDY BOYD: and Beau Willimon also created House of Cards, right? So it's like, I mean, it's not that surprising that somebody who wrote You know, West Wing for cynics also wrote like a pretty politically interesting Star Wars thing, you

[00:06:45] MATT BARBOT: totally. Well, absolutely. And it's political, but it's also, I mean, I just think it's like, It's very good. And it seems pretty clear to me that Disney was just like Tony Gilroy. I, I mean, I think the, an interesting thing about Andor as a project too, is I think that a lot of people were just like this. Who, who wants this?

[00:07:02] Like, nobody needs this show. This is, you know, and there was so much cynicism in the buildup of it. They have that this, this common criticism that I never really understand, which is like, well, we know he is gonna die, so what does it matter? and that always kind of excited me as someone who, because I was like, well, this is gonna be, this doesn't owe anybody, this show doesn't owe anybody anything, right?

[00:07:20] Like, the Obi Wan Kenobi show, so it was kind of nice. I was like this is kind of exciting to just get like a sandbox

[00:07:26] I remember watching the first episode and going like oh, like this is I was completely unprepared for the kind of show we were settling in for. and it's pretty clear to me that, like, Disney just kind of was like, Do something. Like, take it and run with it and do something with your group of writers. Um, I think there's something to be said, too, for the creative process of like, letting a bunch of artists work together on something, as opposed to like, pinning everything to like, one guy.

[00:07:54] Uh, but, you know, that's one guy in a funny hat, but like, we'll see, like, how that pays off, going

[00:08:01] forward.

[00:08:02] ANDY BOYD: I think that's weirdly like a combination of like, it's useful to have a pretty high amount of creative control over a pretty small part of the overall thing.

[00:08:12] MATT BARBOT: Yeah.

[00:08:12] ANDY BOYD: know? Like, that seems to be working for them, at least in some cases. But I think your point, too, is interesting about the differences and similarities between the, like, the things that were being told on TV shows versus, like, the old Extended Universe.

[00:08:28] Because, like, the Extended Universe, I didn't dive super deep into, but I read some of the books and stuff, and, like, they really weren't about backstory. Like, they were really just, like, The further adventures of Obi Wan Kenobi and Qui Gon Jinn, you know? It wasn't like, why is Qui Gon Jinn named that, you know?

[00:08:44] It's like, I don't actually, I think they for a long time really overestimated how much people cared about backstory, you know? Which is just, I just don't care why Han Solo got that way. I just like how he is, you know?

[00:08:57] MATT BARBOT: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's with any sort of like, adaptation of a franchise, it's kind of like, Especially when you're coming with a lot of material already There is always this kind of this question of like how to handle established material how to handle like fan expectation how to handle, you know Uh, you know so much of the especially after the because the the EU was like, you know Uh, it was it was going for like decades before the prequels came out and the prequels didn't really like Care about it and so what ended up happening is that there were like loads of, there was loads of material that was just, that was like, reconciling, you know, and like retconning like the, you know, the two, which is, which was kind of like an interesting art and an interesting exercise on its own.

[00:09:39] but I agree. I think there's something, there's something to like the relevance, the success of, of, of like, I mean, and I think the first episode, the first season of Mandalorian does this really well as well, right? Like you have a particular fixation on a particular thing, and you're telling a very particular story. And you have a lot of control over how that story gets told. in isolation, right? There, you don't, you don't have, I think this is like the issue, this is an issue with franchises as well, right? Like you have, things have to lead into other things and connect in ways but if you can, as much as you can remain separate from other things, you have a lot of leeway to, like, just do your thing.

[00:10:15] this is one of the reasons that, like, the first, the first season of Mandalorian is so successful and Andor is so successful. Mm

[00:10:22] ANDY BOYD: And that's also true of the Marvel movies too, like, with almost every part of the Marvel movies, like the first entry in as like section is always like the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie had a similar thing of like, who are these guys, you know, like people didn't really have expectations about that.

[00:10:38] And so it was able to be like a cool, quirky, interesting thing. And like, same thing with Black Panther. Like people didn't really know that lore. I mean, some people did, but like a lot of people saw that movie having no real idea other than just like, Oh, there's a black guy who's a superhero. That's cool.

[00:10:51] You know, um, and like, and I feel like even like when they sort of do a soft reset after a big arc. Like, those are kind of interesting for a little bit before they start getting just like tied up in continuity and stuff. And yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how to solve that, but it sure annoys me.

[00:11:09] Like, it's why, it's why I stopped being a like every Wednesday comic book guy. It's like, you know, you would have this great arc that would be built up over years and then, you know, uh, they would just say, no, nevermind, we're doing a different thing. And uh, I found that very frustrating. I think if I, I think that's why I'll never be like a.

[00:11:30] I'll never be a great nerd. I just, that just pisses me off. And I think you have to think that's cool.

[00:11:35] JOSH: you know,

[00:11:36] something that both of you hit upon, I think, this idea that if you entrust a small part of the universe to an artist or a group of artists and you say, here, you can go do your thing, then, that's sort of a recipe for success. And also, this idea that

[00:11:53] when they're unburdened by the weight of, connecting everything, and like, the next installments, there are all these expectations, like you were saying, like, nobody was asking for, for Andor, like, It wasn't clear that that was, the next step in Star Wars storytelling was to tell that story in that way.

[00:12:10] Um, if you want to be cynical about it, there's also kind of a sense that, by kind of segmenting the audience in this way, they are, you know, making Star Wars for different segments of, the viewing public and for different kinds of Star Wars fans. So, I think the experience that they had with continuing the franchise as a series of theatrical films, the weight of expectations and the, the, the need to have them be super critical and financial successes was kind of a problem because they learned you can't please everybody because lot of people have strong, conflicting opinions about what Star Wars is and what it should be and how it should continue, so what they've done is they've found a way to segment the audience and make different flavors of Star Wars for different, segments of, the viewing public and of, fandom.

[00:13:01] I think that, you know, something that you said that was really interesting was like how, the expanded universe stuff is just kind of now Star Wars. Like, The Acolyte, show, is an extension of the High Republic, uh, which started out as, novels and comics and an expanded universe project, and now it's making the leap, to live action, which are some, as you know, the real, mark of legitimacy is, when something appears in live action.

[00:13:27] So, because it is an extension of the High Republic storytelling universe that they've created, It's kind of all of a piece. Like, they aren't going to contradict something that was just written in a High Republic novel last year or two years ago. It's, it's all a part of the same,

[00:13:44] MATT BARBOT: Millie, uh.

[00:13:45] JOSH: milieu, if you will.

[00:13:46] Yeah, so, so, so I do think that's really interesting, uh, because, uh, with the George Lucas films, there was definitely a very clear distinction No matter how the, the expanded universe purported to be, you know, the true heir to the empire as it were, See what I did there?

[00:14:04] MATT BARBOT: I did. I

[00:14:04] JOSH: as soon as Lucas shows up again and makes more films, he just, does whatever he wants.

[00:14:09] He doesn't have any regard for the EU. And now, you know, without that clear, authorial voice, it's sort of what is more legitimate than the other. I mean, I guess it, uh, really depends like what makes it to live action.

[00:14:23] ANDY BOYD: yeah, um, I also think it'll be interesting to see whether they ever make the further leap to, you know, making a theatrically released movie that requires you to have watched a TV show to understand it. I feel like that's a further legit, you know, further blurring of those lines because Star Wars still kind of works in the way that like you can just watch the movies and that's fine and you're gonna like they they they maybe they don't stand alone but they stand together as like the whatever 11 movies you know

[00:14:53] JOSH: We may be about to see that, uh, with, uh, The Mandalorian and Grogu movie that's, coming out in either 2025 or 2026. I can't keep track. Um, but it seems like that project is what they're doing instead of season four of that show. They're sort of graduating it to feature film status.

[00:15:12] And I would be surprised if, if I mean, obviously, I'm sure that they are going to try to make it as accessible as they can to someone who hasn't seen the show, but if there ever was a project, a feature film Star Wars project where you may need to rely on knowledge of the show that has come before. It would certainly be that one, I think.

[00:15:32] MATT BARBOT: I think,

[00:15:32] I think it's the, like, the culmination of everything, right? Like, they're done with The Mandalorian after that, right? It's like the but then

[00:15:39] that's also part of the, like, the Ahsoka show, so it's all just gonna, like, be Heir to the Empire, and then, like I think it's two movies, right?

[00:15:48] And then, it's like I think Filoni's doing one, and the other guy, uh

[00:15:53] JOSH: Jon Favreau. Yeah.

[00:15:54] MATT BARBOT: yeah.

[00:15:54] JOSH: Yeah, I think Favreau is doing the Mandalorian and Grogu film,

[00:15:59] MATT BARBOT: And then

[00:15:59] JOSH: and then Filoni is doing a film that's the culmination of all the arcs from like, that like, New Republic, Heir to the Empire thing that they're doing with Mando and with, Ahsoka. Um, yeah, so, it'll be interesting to see how that, how that develops because, um, one of you said, I think, the lines are really blurred there, um, Film franchises are behaving more like, the interconnected universes of an ongoing TV show and, TV is becoming, more event like you know, shorter runs, how this, relates specifically to the question of is, Star Wars art or, content, I would say it's, it's kind of like reflecting the changing landscape of the industry

[00:16:44] ANDY BOYD: I never really got that. I don't watch a lot of TV. Uh, I mean, I don't watch a whole lot of movies either, but I'm definitely more of a movie person than a TV person. And I never really got the assumption that, like, A TV show is like a more casual, low stakes endeavor, but it takes 12 hours to watch it.

[00:17:03] You know? Whereas like a movie is a big deal, but you can watch it in the evening? You know? I just don't, I don't understand, so like the idea that I'm gonna watch a TV show Like, let's assume that I care about the overall story of the franchise. The idea that, like, I'm gonna watch a TV show where nothing really happens, like, nothing that important to the overall story happens, but I'm going to spend six times the amount of time watching that, as I will watching a movie that, you know, resets everything, and ties up loose ends, and, you know, establishes interesting new characters.

[00:17:35] I just don't, I just don't understand why I would do that. Like, that just seems like a weird way to spend my time, you know? I really, I really value the economy of a movie and, you know, in a play too. I mean, I'm a playwright, so I like the idea of like two hours and everything changes, you know, rather than 12 hours and everything stays the same.

[00:17:53] I just, that doesn't appeal to me.

[00:17:56] JOSH: I suppose the answer would be, you know, there's, This line that, TV is about characters and, you know, movies are about plot. TV is also about plot and movies are also about characters, but that because of the, the amount of time that you have to play with, it provides an opportunity to get, more deeply involved with the characters, over a longer period of time, you sort of develop a relationship with them.

[00:18:23] yeah, I mean, it's just a different kind of storytelling. It's a different kind of engagement. I think, It also has to do with, um, that ongoing conversation, like the meta commentary, that you have week to week, discussing the show and like thinking about the show, so, you have kind of different relationship with it. Watching Andor, I don't know if you guys watched it in real time, but the experience of watching that show week to week, waiting for the next episode, Having

[00:18:50] MATT BARBOT: Yeah,

[00:18:50] JOSH: having Twitter, yeah, like, at the end of every episode of that, like, I was just like, I have to talk about this.

[00:18:56] MATT BARBOT: I remember like what an enormous impact, Nemmik's, uh, like speech, like his pitch to, to, to Cassian

[00:19:04] JOSH: Manifesto, yeah.

[00:19:05] MATT BARBOT: but even before you actually hear his manifesto when he's talking about just ideas with, with, Cassian, uh, over whatever their gross breakfast is. that they both hate.

[00:19:14] They don't tell you what they're eating, but it's disgusting. Um, and I think, isn't it the milk from the weird goats? Anyway, they um, they they're talking about it. Um, and he has that line about like hiding behind 40 atrocities, you know, is easier than like, facing up to one and that's how the empire works.

[00:19:31] Um, and I remember just like how impactful that was. For like, the week in between. Like how much people were like, this is, like, I can't believe I'm, I can't believe I'm watching

[00:19:44] ANDY BOYD: Yeah.

[00:19:44] MATT BARBOT: War.

[00:19:45] ANDY BOYD: Like, actually a profound

[00:19:47] MATT BARBOT: um, I can't believe.

[00:19:49] ANDY BOYD: Yeah.

[00:19:49] MATT BARBOT: right. And just like this whole, um, you know, and then, you know, his manifesto, what was it, we finally hear like bits of it in the season finale and it's, and that similarly had a lot of, you know, even people doing fan edits over it and like things like that.

[00:20:01] Um, but like, you know, it's, it speaks I think a lot to the power of, of that sort of consumption model and the, the danger of treating stuff that isn't just content as content, you know, like I remember I, I was, I feel like I was working in media back when like the word content was something that people had started to creep in and and and back then meant the stuff that was populating the site right like it didn't we talked about it meant like content for the site but it wasn't like a genre of thing right there were no content creators you were a You know, an article was content because it had to go up.

[00:20:36] Um, it was there, it was how do you, you know, and so the idea of content came up around site architecture, around just making sure that you were getting, you know, your daily number of hits because it meant that you had to have stuff up. But, that idea then of like, we just need stuff there, has like, had a really deleterious effect on like the content The streaming model, right?

[00:21:01] Where you have shows, they just need to, we need to populate it with stuff. And so there's a lot of stuff getting made, uh, and it's all being treated the same. just uploading everything all at once is, is again, not really, uh, It doesn't do justice to the material all the time, like, the idea is like we need to, we just need, we need more stuff, and it has to be there, and it doesn't matter whether people watch it and it doesn't matter whether it has an impact or it, you know, enters the, the conversation, you know, it's just there, I feel like that's often my experience with opening a streaming app is just like, there's a lot of stuff, I just don't know what any of it is.

[00:21:38] ANDY BOYD: Yeah. And going back to your original question, Josh, like, that dynamic that Matt just identified is like, I think, a deeply anti art way of thinking about making anything. You know? Like, that is absolutely a sort of capitalist model of, production, um, rather than of like, generating something based on, you know, it being, you being inspired to create something, or it being something that you feel like is a message you want to send out into the universe, or something, or a question you want to explore, any of the things that make, I mean, artists do what they do, is not served well by this model of like, If we don't have a new Star War every year, people are going to forget about Star Wars, you know, which I just don't think is true and like certainly isn't how, how like filmmaking TV making works everywhere.

[00:22:23] I mean, in, in Britain, they'll have, you know, five episodes of a show and then go away for three years and then come back with another five episodes and people are like, Oh, Sherlock, I remember that, you know, like if it's good, people are going to remember it. You don't have to constantly be, you know, You know, feeding them new stuff like it's an assembly line, which doesn't mean that nothing good can happen in that model, but does

[00:22:43] mean I think there's like

[00:22:43] a profound pressure against things that are, you know, particular and unique and that are thoughtful.

[00:22:51] I mean, I think that pressure mitigates against

[00:22:54] MATT BARBOT: well, I, and certainly when that stuff gets made, certainly there's no incentive to make stuff that's, you know, good and thoughtful and quality because it's all gonna be no one's gonna watch it. I think when people talk about The sort of like Marvel situation, right?

[00:23:10] People talk about how a lot of, well, all these movies still get made, right? People still make mid budget movies, people still make rom coms, people still make And it's, sometimes, it's sort of true, um, but like, really what ends up happening is they wind up getting dumped on a platform where no one watches them.

[00:23:25] you know, they don't get these theatrical releases where they, you know, stick around for a little while, word of mouth builds up. Um, they sort of get buried. I still stumble across a movie that's got like, a star studded cast that I've never heard of before because it was like, launched in like, 2018. On like a, a content heavy weekend. Um, you know, and probably just wasn't that good , but even like a movie that wasn't that good that had, you know, that used to be the point of having movie stars, right? Um, but like, I think the question of, of, um. art versus content, uh, is, further complicated by the fact that so much stuff, no matter whether it can be considered to have artistic integrity, gets treated like content, gets treated like, like, like mere content, like just, you know, it all sort of goes into the same slop pile.

[00:24:12]

[00:24:12] JOSH: Yeah, that's a very good point. The dynamic that you laid out about how there just needs to be stuff up there is why, you know, I personally have so much consternation about, AI generated content.

[00:24:22] It's not that I think AI generated content will surpass human creativity, but because, as you say, like, there just has to be something there, people don't necessarily watch it or engage with it in a deep way, the AI generated stuff would serve that function just as well. And that's what I find so, yucky and gross, for lack of a better term.

[00:24:45] Um, The answer to my questions, for me, is Andor. is it possible to make art under these circumstances? I would say yes, you can make Andor, they

[00:24:54] made

[00:24:54] ANDY BOYD: I like that. That's really all like, mostly what we're talking about is just, Hey guys, remember how good Andor was? how much we all liked

[00:25:03] JOSH: Andor, you know, Matt, the other thing that you made me think of was like, yeah, a lot of this stuff just gets lost. So is it kind of necessary to be part of a franchise to not get lost in the shuffle? And then I was wondering, like, could you make, Andor a non Star Wars thing? good.

[00:25:22] MATT BARBOT: I think part of what, makes Andor impactful is, is that it is Star Wars. I mean, like, I think you could make a good, I think you could make, and there, there are, like, good stories. Like, uh, you know, that are sci fi and that are, you know, anti, you know, corporate and anti, like, colonial and all those, you know.

[00:25:38] but I think , part of what makes, Andor impactful is its place within, you This world that we recognize, this world that we sort of like know the rules for, and what it sort of does with that. I mean, another example I'd give and then get called a cuck for it or whatever is, is, is Last Jedi.

[00:25:52] Which I think is like a movie that I think a lot, I think people use the word subversive, about it and because they, it's like a rule of, of certain guys on the internet that they stop watching the movie halfway through. But like, it's not, it, it doesn't, part of what makes like The Last Jedi What it is, is that it has this kind of like, reflective tone about the rest of the seat of the of the franchise And it is very much a movie about like the value of Star Wars It's about like is this still useful to us and it you know, and the answer is yes.

[00:26:28] The answer is like, yes, we need these stories Yes, we do respond well to them. Yes, they have like a a role to play in the in the in the

[00:26:37] JOSH: culture.

[00:26:38] MATT BARBOT:

[00:26:38] of our imagination of like what is possible for us, right? So I think that's another example story that sort of like sits within, You know, I think to the point of like letting people have like a lot of control over, like, a little bit of the universe, I'm a huge fan of like the weird tone of like the, the Dr. Aphra comics. I think those are really fun. and, and within that it's like a very, it's a story with a lot of queer characters and a lot of diversity and I think that the artists involved with that are allowed to do that because it is like a comic

[00:27:11] that comes out.

[00:27:13] Ever so often, like amidst a bunch of other comics, so I don't think like Dr. Aphra and her like polycule are gonna make it onto Disney Plus . But I do think those comics are a lot of fun. I think they're funny.

[00:27:27] They're kind of irreverent. They do like interesting, like things they play with genre a lot. And that's again, I think, because of the value of like, letting writers like, play around, in a way that doesn't like, have a huge impact on the rest of the

[00:27:40] franchise.

[00:27:41] ANDY BOYD: I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit, Matt, here. Just on a small point. Which is, like, I actually think, like, Last Jedi and Andor work in really different ways in relationship to the rest of the franchise. I think you're totally right that, like, Last Jedi is, like, Very meta, very self reflexive, but it also like, I mean, it's got Luke Skywalker in it.

[00:28:01] Like, Luke Skywalker's a main character. Like, it is, it is real, real Star Wars y, and it's about like, the Force and all of that. Whereas like, Andor, I mean, you could reskin Andor and make it a, make it a non Star Wars thing, like, I think really easily. Like, there's no, there's no Jedi's, there's like, not really any Force stuff, there's um, there's like, there's no, there's no characters that are.

[00:28:24] Important characters other than in Rogue One, which I haven't really talked about, but it's also, I think, an exceptionally good movie. And like, also no alien monsters. Like, for me, , one of the great pleasures of Mandalorian is like, Wow, look at those cool puppets, but you don't even get that in Andor.

[00:28:38] Like, Andor could be Andor could be a standalone thing, I think, actually, very easily. I mean, it wouldn't get made, but I think that's sort of the

[00:28:45] thing, is like, if you have this interesting, this interesting sci fi universe that you want to create, like, well, can it be a Star Wars thing?

[00:28:51] Well, then you maybe get it made, and if it can't be a Star Wars thing, you probably don't. But I kind of feel like that just seemed like it was

[00:28:57] just,

[00:28:58] MATT BARBOT: you're Zack Snyder.

[00:28:58] ANDY BOYD: right, but that just seemed like it was sort of riding on

[00:29:01] MATT BARBOT: No, I agree with you that you could re skin it. And like I said, I think there are probably similar stories out there, but I do think part of what makes Andor impactful is that like we, we are coming to it with a lot of context already.

[00:29:15] And

[00:29:15] so it like, it sits with us a little bit differently and it sort of allows, it has a shorthand, to, like, sort of situate us in a context in a particular way, you know?

[00:29:23] Like, I, I love, when Saw Gerrera is listing all the leftist groups he doesn't like. a lot of those are, like, words.

[00:29:29] ANDY BOYD: Yeah.

[00:29:30] MATT BARBOT: you know what I mean? And they have meaning

[00:29:32] because we've seen all But I also feel like a lot of what made Andor successful is how it, didn't fulfill the expectations people brought to it. what you said of like, I can't believe I'm hearing this in a Star Wars thing. Like that's a, that's a pleasure that we only get from that because of how it, much it doesn't feel like Star Wars.

[00:29:47] ANDY BOYD: You know what I mean?

[00:29:48] MATT BARBOT: right, which we wouldn't have if it was a completely original thing

[00:29:50] because it Nobody would say, I is my point. hearing this in the Amazon Plus adaptation of The Word for World is Forest.

[00:29:57] Yeah, exactly. I can absolutely believe I'm hearing this in an Andy Boyd play. is exactly what I come to see Andy

[00:30:04] ANDY BOYD: yeah. yeah.

[00:30:05] MATT BARBOT: actually.

[00:30:06] ANDY BOYD: Our, um, Halle Rochon once described me as the, the ghost of a 1930s hobo, and I was like, that's Yeah, mean, but it's fair. You know,

[00:30:17] MATT BARBOT: yeah.

[00:30:18] JOSH: just to kind of close out here, for me, the, the ultimate distinction of Star Wars is content versus Star Wars artr art, if you want to use that word. it was the mostly singular expression of, a single artist that had a point of view that was, unfiltered as much as possible, versus, You know, now, the decisions about what Star Wars is and where it's going are made by Disney.

[00:30:45] And their aim is to have Star Wars going as long as possible perpetuity. You know, there will be new Star Wars content long after we are gone, uh, from this Earth. it's sort of like this, um, you know, self perpetuating, enterprise for, for lack of a better word. and so there's that, but I think as we've identified in this conversation, within that, these like smaller fiefdoms, some real worthy stuff is able to. be made. Um, so, you know, is Star Wars content, in a way that it didn't used to be? I mean, I suppose in some sense, but, you know, , anything that generates a show like Andor, and even, for my money, and for yours, The Last Jedi, I think is, Worth some serious consideration and not, just, writing off. Uh, Do you guys have any closing thoughts?

[00:31:37] MATT BARBOT: yeah, I mean, I just think, I think I don't know, I think that like central to the question of whether it's art or content is also like, there has to be a hunger on their part to, on Disney's part, to, continue to like explore new territory and continue to surpass and I think without that then it just becomes like how do we feed, you know, how do we fill this trough, and that's like, that's boring and that that hurts things in the, in the long run in a way that like finding artists that they're interested in working with and, and figuring out what those artists might be interested in doing, isn't and, and has

[00:32:10] actually paid

[00:32:10] off for them.

[00:32:11] excited for

[00:32:13] The Acolyte.

[00:32:14] JOSH: Yeah, me too.

[00:32:15] MATT BARBOT: I think Leslie Hedlund's a great writer, hear

[00:32:18] I hear she's a legit Star Wars fan from some other friends of mine who knew her before.

[00:32:22] ANDY BOYD: I think that, like, that really, like, the central tension here is that, like, what people actually want is to be surprised and delighted by things, like, and capitalism requires surprise, and novelty, and, and new, like, things that are genuinely new, but capitalists don't know how to do that.

[00:32:42] Like, the people who, like, the suits at Disney don't know how to make something that nobody's seen before. They just know how to make something that people liked the first time. You know, they know how to say, like, Obi Wan, people like him, let's do a thing with him again, you know, and that's not interesting.

[00:32:56] So it's like, there's this weird push and pull where, like, I think capitalists need artists, but they also don't trust artists because artists, But by that very function of being able to make something new and interesting, might make something that is new and interesting and not profitable. Or new and interesting in a way that, like, upsets you know, the other priorities of the franchise or something.

[00:33:19] Like the desire to like have creativity, but also to have it be tightly controlled is just like an inherently unstable dynamic.

[00:33:28] JOSH: Well, yeah, there's that too. And then the other thing, you know, I would say, I would argue that there were some fans

[00:33:36] who don't want to be surprised and delighted.

[00:33:40] MATT BARBOT: Well, I mean, I think, I think they're, I think they're, I would, I would say that there's probably stuff that, I mean, I think that a lot of it's politically motivated, or it's just like, I don't know, politically

[00:33:49] motivated, but it's, it's

[00:33:50] motivated by, um,

[00:33:51]

[00:33:52] JOSH: It's like a worldview. It's like

[00:33:53] MATT BARBOT: it's, it's a, it's a worldview thing, I mean, and so I think that there's sometimes where they, I think they would be surprised and delighted by certain things.

[00:33:59] Like, you know, I think like every time there's like a hallway scene, they're surprised and delighted to see people. I know, and I think I was delighted by it too in Rogue One, that they, you know, like you see Darth Vader and he's like whooping ass in a hallway and that was like cool and interesting and I thought like genuinely kind of scary in the moment.

[00:34:17] but that's not like the only thing that I like have left to

[00:34:19] be, delighted by in my life. , and it's, it's, I think there's different cultural, uh, I think there's different, um, corporate cultures, right?

[00:34:26] Like, uh, Apple, so, uh, you know, but,

[00:34:29] ANDY BOYD: Greta Gerwig rogue movie.

[00:34:31] MATT BARBOT: yeah. That would be, that would be a lot of, I would, but if they let Greta Gerwig make that movie, that would be a lot of fun. Uh, I think Ryan Coogler did a great job within the constraints of, of what he does, you know? But at the same time, I'm super happy to see Ryan Coogler, uh, like, set free again. He's making an antebellum vampire film, which sounds delightful.

[00:34:50] JOSH: That sounds awesome. Well, so what's interesting, though, is that they tried to do something similar with Star Wars. And I think The Last Jedi is sort of the last vestige of that approach, where they got, you know, Rian Johnson, like a filmmaker with a point of view, Gareth Edwards for Rogue One, know, they had a similar sort of a model where they went to young filmmakers that You know, had something to say, had something to bring, and then they sort of, pulled back from that.

[00:35:14] The, um, you know, one of the things that I would love to see someday or hear more about is, um, the Lord and Miller version of Solo that, freaked them out so much that they, like, had to get rid of them and hire Ron Howard

[00:35:28] MATT BARBOT: Hoo!

[00:35:30] Yeah.

[00:35:30] By the way, I think Solo's an okay movie. , but I also

[00:35:33] think, I also think Ron Howard is such an obvious choice for the franchise, I'd like to see him get his own movie that he gets to do

[00:35:39] top to bottom. But I think that, um, yeah, I agree. And I, but I, and I, and I do sort of see them, you know, I think.

[00:35:46] I think with Leslie Hedlund and Tony Gilroy and now Beau Willimon on the other movie, there seems to be some interest in exploring that more. And I think that, you know, I think that the critical response to Andor has I think probably reassured them on that path a little bit.

[00:36:01] JOSH: Yeah, I hope so. I'd be really curious the viewing figures for, um, for the various streaming shows because like there's, on the one hand, critical acclaim, which I'm sure that they, they obviously, consider. But then there's also like. okay, how many people actually watched it versus how many people actually watched this?

[00:36:18] And it is interesting, because the shows I think allow them a little more, leeway in terms of being risky or doing interesting things, because they don't have to hit Those opening weekend box office numbers, the streaming platforms are like, a black box where you don't know exactly what the metrics of success are, and, you know, comparatively, I think, mean, even though they are on par with the cost of a feature film, I think they're slightly less expensive and you get to have, you know, multiple flavors of Star Wars in a year.

[00:36:52] So you can, please these people with this one and these people with that one. Um, know, the High Republic era is not something that I've explored much, like, I'm very intrigued but it's also, clear to me that they are making The Acolyte with certain fans in mind. You know, it's not necessarily the same set that, say, like Andor or The Book of Boba Fett had in mind. Um, I mean that could just be projection on my part. It's a lot supposition. But that said, like, I'm really, really excited about the Acolyte. because I want to see what else Star Wars can, can do.

[00:37:27] ANDY BOYD: I thought having Grogu fight the woke mind virus was a mistake, but I think the general move to kind of appeal to everybody with different content is probably a good one.

[00:37:36] JOSH: Yeah, that woke mind virus. Oh, goodness.

[00:37:38] ANDY BOYD: that just seemed a little on the nose.

[00:37:41] JOSH: Yeah, you're right. Do you guys have anything you want to plug or you want to mention before we close out?

[00:37:48] MATT BARBOT: Not that you

[00:37:49] ANDY BOYD: just, get the Trade Federation, get Occupy Prescott. they're also on my New Play Exchange page if you have that and don't want to pay eight dollars.

[00:37:58] JOSH: Where can people find you if you have social media that you wouldn't mind sharing? And if you do, that's totally fine because who knows what kind of riffraff this Star Wars podcast attracts? And who needs that in their life?

[00:38:10] MATT BARBOT: Yeah, I don't, all my stuff is like, private now. I don't really use, I don't use them and I don't, I don't like, I don't really post much anymore. Um,

[00:38:16] JOSH: good for you.

[00:38:17] MATT BARBOT: yeah, yeah, it's been kind of liberating.

[00:38:19] ANDY BOYD: I'm Instagram at AndyJBoyd. You can follow me on there.

[00:38:23] JOSH: I will add the relevant links in the show notes. I want to thank my guests, Andy and Matt, for engaging in this conversation with me. If you like what you heard, please follow trashcompod on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and transcripts of this episode and all our other episodes can be found at trashcompod.com and we will see you on the next one