REVISIONIST HISTORY: The Special Editions

[00:00:00] Josh: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. And today I'm joined by Jon

[00:00:11] and Bracey. That was the weirdest hay I've ever heard. Oh, wow. Okay. today. We're going to be talking about the star wars Special Editions. overall thoughts on the Special Editions, Jon,

[00:00:25] Jonny: respect the idea of them that George Lucas, this is, this is his art. This is, uh, the things that he created and if he thinks they're not finished, then he has every right to keep working on them as much as they can. My personal opinion of them, I don't mind them at all when they don't affect what I consider to be the tone of the movie or character.

[00:00:48] And then once they do that, whether it's interrupting the flow or it's something that I feel doesn't fit with the rest of the movie, or if it changes a character's, um, definition, I guess then I, then I get like bothered by it. But for the superficial stuff, like the computer graphics of like X wings and stuff like that, I think it's pretty cool.

[00:01:10] Josh: Bracey overall thoughts on the Special Edition.

[00:01:12] Bracey: Uh, yeah, so I, I'm going to be speaking for three different braces. The Bracey that. Uh, experienced it when they were coming out or around the time that they were coming out of the Bracey as becoming a filmmaker and a star wars enthusiast, uh, uh, in college. And now, uh, like later, later, later in life Bracey, uh, and I, uh, the first one I would say I was just Like it was just a mate, like just nothing but just pure joy, getting to see star wars in the theater, like just that in and of itself, uh, made any changes.

[00:01:47] Just amazing to me, uh, back, back in that time,

[00:01:51] Jonny: Like watching The Phantom Menace for the first time.

[00:01:53] Bracey: Exactly. It was just like nothing, but, uh, speaking to the part of me that had been longing to get more star wars and then not just any star wars, uh, of what star wars, uh, in, on the big screen and being able to watch it with a crowd, like never, I never got a chance to experience that because I came out in 77.

[00:02:13] I was alive. Um, but then in college I remember, uh, uh, with the two of you kind of. Uh, thinking about it and, uh, kind of digging into it a little bit more and just like, kind of being a little, like, this kinda sucks, you know, like, you know, like, oh man, they really revised the, they added these components and, and, and maybe it wasn't necessary to this point that I felt like it was like, uh, I dreamt of a world prior to them being affected because I re I realized that like they were erasing history.

[00:02:51] Um, but then, but now, you know, I come, I look back on it and, uh, I, I still have the fond memories and kind of similar to what Jonny said, like, Yeah. like you're, you know, you're an artist you're gonna, you're gonna take every opportunity you can to revise, uh, what it is you were trying.

[00:03:10] Josh: Yeah. I generally agree with what both of you said. Um, was this the first time you saw star wars in a theater, like your first theatrical experience with star wars? Because I know it, definitely was mine

[00:03:22] Jonny: Yeah. I had no choice because of, because of our ages, you know? W what are we, uh, 81, 82, 84. So like, by the time we were old enough to see movies in the movie theater, at least to remember them. Yeah. I mean, I had no choice, but to wait to the Special Edition. So it was like a, it was like Woodstock, man. Like, I, I remember, uh, I remember me and my friends skipping, like.

[00:03:46] We were doing Joseph and the Technicolor amazing dream coat, whatever, and like eighth grade. And I remember we skipped rehearsal to just go see the movie right after school. And we just could not wait until like nine o'clock that night. We had to go see it at like three or four o'clock in the afternoon.

[00:04:02] Cause we had to go see it. And um, yeah, it was, it was probably the most exciting movie moment of my life. uh, uh, just being able to go see it in eighth grade because I grew up watching it on VHS, you know, so the seat and

[00:04:17] the big screen is like going to Mecca. It was like, it was insane.

[00:04:21] Josh: Yeah. You know, it's really funny. Cause I was watching the trailer for the Special Editions again, which I remember very vividly and the trailer was specifically talking about the three of us. the way they frame it is, it starts out for an entire generation. People have experienced star wars, the only way possible on a TV screen.

[00:04:36] And if this is the only way you've seen it, that you've never seen it at all. And then the x-ray like flies out of the TV and like blah, blah, blah.

[00:04:41] Jonny: I remember that,

[00:04:42] Josh: And that generation specifically talking about us, we are the generation that grew up loving star wars, but we didn't see it in the theater.

[00:04:49] Bracey: yeah, they knew what they were.

[00:04:51] Josh: They knew exactly what they were doing.

[00:04:52] Jonny: my dad has told me the story multiple times of one. Uh, he went to see the first one in the movie theater for the first time when it came out, uh, they won a double date, my parents and their friends. And he said, uh, him and his buddy, or arguing over who was going to drive the car home because they wanted to pretend they were like in a spaceship.

[00:05:12] Like that's how like ants they were after seeing the first star wars. And it's like to, just to know that I could possibly sharing that experience, even though I've already seen the movie. Is this something I couldn't, I could not fathom. I'm going to be.

[00:05:25] Bracey: Yeah.

[00:05:26] And I was kind of amped up about a couple of things. Like this was really like the intro. They started introducing CG characters, right? Like

[00:05:34] CGI elements into not necessarily just characters, but elements into, uh, uh, the films, which was kind of heralding this new era, you know,

[00:05:45] because, uh, It's like, oh, I know, I know a, a CG has been in since the eighties, but for whatever reason I, uh, them doing.

[00:05:55] Um, I just kind of made it feel like, oh, something new is coming. And then also, um, there was this new arrival of toys that were, were happening at the time, like, like, this new crop. And, and I just remember, uh, specifically because they added certain new lizard, like lizard creatures, that the stormtroopers were writing that, like, I remember that those things were becoming toys.

[00:06:21] I just remember

[00:06:22] certain times to some of the CG

[00:06:24] content that I thought was.

[00:06:26] Josh: there were two things that you reminded me of. the star wars behind the magic CD rom that came out around then that had a couple of behind the scenes featurettes the Anatomy of a Dewback was one of them.

[00:06:37] And then also I remember on Fox, they had this one-hour with how we long, he hosted it called star wars, the magic and the mystery.

[00:06:45] I don't know if that rings any bells. talking about star wars as a phenomenon, historicizing it, and then they were talking about the new changes in the Special Edition. And I was so excited for very similar reasons to what you were saying.

[00:06:56] I was also excited on this whole other level of like what it meant for filmmaking.

[00:07:01] So that said, were you aware of the concept of a director's cut or a Special Edition prior to these

[00:07:09] Jonny: Yeah. I, for some reason I was aware, I think of, um, Bladerunner by that point. cause I think that came out in like 92,

[00:07:17] but for some reason, I, I was aware of director cuts because I remember I remember the phrase at that time,

[00:07:23] but I don't quite remember what the first one was. I was aware.

[00:07:27] Josh: the First one that I think I was aware of was, the blade runner director's cut, uh, which I, think is generally regarded to, to being, responsible for the large scale of re-evaluation of that, film.

[00:07:40] Jonny: I think so, too.

[00:07:41] And because it was, so vastly different from the theatrical cut compared to a lot about director cuts where it's like, oh, next year, five, 10 minutes of footage. It was like, no, this is like, this changes the whole movie,

[00:07:51] Josh: blade runner wasn't really well received, and it didn't do very good box office. So I think it was generally viewed as like a misfire or like a flop. But then the director's cut.

[00:08:03] think a lot of people, they took a second look at it and, you know, that's the version, certainly that I grew up with

[00:08:10] Jonny: Yeah, Yeah, me too.

[00:08:12] Bracey: I don't even know if I've seen the theatrical version. Honestly, I think I only seen because at the time that the director's cut came out, I don't think I'd seen Blade Runner. And at the

[00:08:22] time after that had come out, like that's the old, that's how it was always presented. I think.

[00:08:27] Josh: exactly.

[00:08:28] Jonny: exactly how I saw it. Bracey if you're, if you ever want to watch it, it's a good academic experience just to see how different, uh, something can be with like studio notes and voiceover and editing.

[00:08:39] Josh: Yeah. I mean, if you buy blade runner on blue right now, it's like they have the theatrical cut, the, the rough cut, the director's cut. And the final cut, which combines the best of the theatrical and the director's guy. Um, the only other. Special Edition that I'm aware of that was marketed that way. Close Encounters of the Third Kind had Special Edition. Yeah. Yeah. because there were a lot of shots and a lot of scenes that, Steven Spielberg didn't have the time to complete and they released it in like 1980. and the studio, agreed to spend more money to do the new effects and to, finish the movie on the condition that he shoot, a new ending that showed what was inside the mothership which Spielberg, I think very wisely.

[00:09:25] The first time chose, not

[00:09:27] Jonny: Not to show.

[00:09:28] Josh: but the studio was like, Hey, we'll let you do all this other stuff. If you have you shoot this new ending. And at the time he did it. And, um, all the other stuff is great. The version that exists now once again, it's like a hybrid without the ending from the Special Edition, like that's like sort of the canonical version of close encounters that exists.

[00:09:48] I have to wonder if Lucas was Hoping or expecting that something similar would happen with star wars where these new versions of the only versions that are going to be out there and the original versions we'll just, become, you know, relics that nobody really remembers.

[00:10:04] Why do you think that happened to blade runner and not to start with.

[00:10:08] Jonny: Well, it's, it's all subjective. Right? But I feel like, um, the original version of blade runner was very much imposed on them by other people. so then when you see the, the director's cut in the final cut and all that, you can like, you're like, oh, this is like what it looks like when you're not confined.

[00:10:28] To the studio pressure. Like it's, it's, it's artistically just better. I know it's subjective. I know certain people like even Denise Villanova who did a 2049, he, he actually worships the theatrical cut cause that's his version that he grew up with. But, um, but star wars, they didn't impose anything on him that it was like a true artistic vision.

[00:10:50] It was the best thing he could do at the time. And it shows, and I feel like with blade runner, when he does the, the, the Special Editions or the final cuts, whatever he's refining it to what it already is. So like, uh, for instance, famously the scene where, uh, Decherd shoots Zora in the back and she's running through the place of glass in the original version.

[00:11:17] It's clearly like a stunt woman with a really bad. Curly wig that doesn't match the actor's head, whatever. And the final cut, they go back, they get the actress back and they, they with subtle CG put her face on the stunt woman and they redo her wig and it looks good. It looks better. It looks like, oh, this is what it looks like, the way it was supposed to be as compared to like the star wars Special Edition, where all of a sudden Greedo says McConkie and shoots hon first.

[00:11:48] And you're like, what the fuck just happened? You know, like that like changes. Um, that's not what the original movie was, you know? So I feel like George is kind of like, oh, I have a new idea. I want to put it into the movie almost like it's like a remix. And then I feel like with Ridley Scott, he was more or less taken the chisel to the marble and he's getting out the kinks that were there to make the image clearer.

[00:12:16] If that makes any sense.

[00:12:17] Bracey: I would say it has a lot to do with the perception of star wars, like star wars. When it came out, it was a phenomenon as the theatrical release. So that, that theatrical release, um, became just the heart of how people. Just got introduced to the world and, and, uh, fell in love. So if, if blade runner was basically commercially a flop, uh, uh, compared to the theater to the director, uh, the director's cut.

[00:12:47] I feel like people accepted star wars for what it was, and, uh, And there were, and I would argue that there were a lot of things that maybe got from through, uh, uh, through, to an audience that maybe George didn't intend. And so when he went back to make these Special Editions, he was trying to tell the story that he had been trying to tell, but I feel like more of the, uh, the fan base and more of the, of the world was like, Yeah, that's nice, George. I, really liked stuff. Like, I really liked the mystery that existed in the world that you created, because the things that you didn't explain, and I feel like that. That largely influenced, um, how people refer to it. So then when these Special Editions people aren't necessarily focusing on the fact that it's like, oh, it's, it's the Special Edition.

[00:13:45] Oh, uh, let's like elevate the Special Edition because ultimately I don't think the Special Edition elevated the experience for most people in the end.

[00:13:56] Jonny: Yeah, I, I agree with that. And also you, you bring up something that I think we were going to probably talk about at some point, but star wars, in my opinion, a star wars to George Lucas is completely dead. As to what star wars is to the rest of the world. And, uh, so like, I think George has even said multiple times, like he doesn't even understood.

[00:14:20] He didn't understand why people love that the way they did when it came out, like to him, it's something different. So every time he does something to the Special Editions and adds another thing it's like, is this really what you thought? Like, it should be because it's so different from the way the rest of the world season, you know, it's like, you really want to, you really want to turn like this, this, I dunno, let's say like this, this piece of opera and to beach blanket.

[00:14:50] Bingo. Is that what you really wanted to do? I mean, I guess, you know, like, this is one of those things where it's like, oh, okay. Like we were not in the same page, you know,

[00:14:59] Josh: that's the thing, like when you're creating something, you have what's in your head and then you have the end product and then, the audience has their own relationship with the work that you put out. That's completely separate from the one you have.

[00:15:11] And you're the only one that has that specific relationship. So, I think George Lucas has said at some point he was like, he's the only, the only person in the world who didn't get to see star wars. I mean, basically. he literally doesn't see what everyone else sees. , which I think is an interesting way to think about it.

[00:15:30] Jonny: what's also interesting is that I think it's the only piece of widely successful, hugely popular art that is constantly being. Reconfigured by the banker. I feel like most people, whether it be the Beatles or other movie makers or whatever, like they release it and then it let it go to the world.

[00:15:48] And then if they go back to it, it's like they might mix. Yeah. They might like take the mano mix and turn it stereo. But like,

[00:15:55] that's basically it, they don't like change the lyrics to the songs or add like an Oregon when it was actually electric guitar. Like they don't like, they don't redo the songs. So that's like a different song, you know, that type of thing.

[00:16:08] And I feel like he's made enough changes to the movies where it's like, they're still at its core, the same movie, but the things that he puts in are sometimes like are alarmingly, jarring. And it's just like, but that's like, but then he's like, forget the old version, which is weird because with the blade runner movies, it's like watch whichever version you want when you buy the Blu-ray.

[00:16:32] But with that. I want a high quality version of what we grew up with. It's like, you can't have it. Fuck you. And it's kind of like a weird sort of stance to take as an artist.

[00:16:41] Like, why can't you just give everyone the version that they want, you know, like

[00:16:45] it's, you'll get more money that way. I don't understand it, you know?

[00:16:48] Josh: Um, and Again, this is subjective, but I think the main reason why there's a lot of, um, consternation let's call it about the Special Editions is the simple fact that the original versions aren't available anywhere.

[00:17:01] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:17:02] Josh: these Special Editions, which have been revised several times since 1997, there's the 97 Special Editions.

[00:17:09] And there were some tweaks for the 2004 DVD release. And then there were, further changes for the 2012, 3d versions that are the versions that we now have on, on Disney plus and on Blu-ray.

[00:17:23] Jonny: And the only theatrically released defensive medicine 3d. Right. They scrapped the

[00:17:26] Josh: Yeah. Right, right, they released the Phantom menace in 3d. And that was right before the Disney sale.

[00:17:33] and Disney had other plans for the theatrical distribution of the movies. And I don't think the Phantom menace 3d did really well,

[00:17:43] Jonny: I think I I, think I came at like the tail end of like the 3d boom. And I think at

[00:17:47] that point, people were gonna getting annoyed at 3d, it didn't last very long, you know?

[00:17:52] Josh: Setting aside whether or not you think George Lucas. Should be making these changes or not, I don't think it's controversial to say that they're, a bit of a mixed bag

[00:18:01] in terms of like how successful some of the changes are.

[00:18:04] What do you think is the worst change?

[00:18:06] Jonny: you. We can't see

[00:18:08] it in the podcast. So breezy is somehow in real life digitally altering his head to Dodger laser bolt, like Han solo from Grito.

[00:18:16] Bracey: Yeah, that would be the only, uh, one change. That was the one thing that stood out to me that was like, oh no. Um, uh, I, uh, that I, I really, I really didn't like, and you know, I'm yeah.

[00:18:32] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:18:32] Bracey: all the way.

[00:18:33] Josh: So we're talking about,

[00:18:34] Grito shooting Han before Han shoots Greedo

[00:18:37] Bracey: Yeah.

[00:18:38] Josh: I think I said this in the, star wars podcast, the refrain is Han shot first that's actually. technically not right, because Greedo never shot in the

[00:18:47] Jonny: Hahn's the

[00:18:48] only one that's shot.

[00:18:49] Josh: Yeah. So it's not Han shot first Han shot.

[00:18:53] Jonny: Yeah. Hon Tim in public, in front of everybody.

[00:18:58] Josh: I buy the motivation that George Lucas explains about how, like, he doesn't like that it makes Han into a cold-blooded killer. Like I understand where he's, he's coming from as an older man with three children, I can understand, not really liking that idea,

[00:19:14] Jonny: Credo said he was going to kill him.

[00:19:16] he said over my dead body and goes ingredients. Like, that's the idea, like I'm going to kill you is what he said.

[00:19:22] Josh: yeah,

[00:19:23] Jonny: So he's, he's defending himself in a brutal way.

[00:19:26] Josh: I guess what I'm trying to get at, and it's kind of slippery thing because full disclosure. I'm in the middle of making changes to a film that I made, to rerelease. and though, you know, my movie has one Google Plex, cultural impact of star wars, like, so, so I don't think it's really a big deal, but having the, example of the Special Editions on my mind, like, there's like sort of a, like an, okay, like, I understand this.

[00:19:52] Isn't what I would do now. so is this a change? That is me now, how I would do it now? Or is this something that really needs to be fixed in like a more objective way. It's hard to have the discipline to not make certain changes is what I'm trying to say. Like, you know, like once you start to go down that road, it's sort of on you to like, decide what the rules are, decide what the guidelines are and stop yourself.

[00:20:20] Jonny: Yeah. I think a lot of artists will agree with that. Um, a painting has never finished a lot of filmmakers say if movie's never done until it's in the theater, you know, like I think for a lot of people, like even our writer, you could probably do 20 redrafts of the same script, the same novel until finally your publisher's like, we gotta release it and then you got to just let it go.

[00:20:42] So I understand that. I understand how the work is just kind of never done, but at a certain point when like it's out there, like, like,

[00:20:51] at a certain point, it's like, you have to let go once it's out there. And like, billions of people have consumed it. It's like it's out there, you know, type of thing. I mean, you could do as many releases as you want. Uh, you know, how many times can you go back to the, well, before the public is like, how many versions of this do we need?

[00:21:09] Josh: well, that I think is the major difference, like Bracey was alluding to it's The cultural impact, you know, using the blade runner example, blade runner, arguably didn't work or didn't work as well as it could have. There was a better movie in there,

[00:21:25] Jonny: star

[00:21:25] wars was like a masterpiece. As soon as I came out

[00:21:27] the way the public perceived it.

[00:21:29] Josh: yeah, the weird thing to me about you know, sort of rewriting history of it all is like, it's sort of weird. Like, he's kind of saying like, no, like you didn't see this.

[00:21:38] It's like a Jedi mind trick. It's like, that was not the movies. This is the movie that you should have seen or, or

[00:21:44] whatever. I mean, that's a separate issue from whether or not he has the right. I mean, he does, he has the right to do whatever he wants but that's a separate issue from, whether or not it is right, the right thing to do.

[00:21:56] Bracey: Yeah, I would say that, uh, now Bracey, it kind of looks at the situation as like, what's going on, George? What do you, what do you need? Like, you know, like you, like, where, where are you in your life? Like now that like, you need to somehow go back in time and like, Kind of, uh, uh, right. The wrongs that you perceive that like, that then George was dealing with, or like the limitations that he was dealing with.

[00:22:24] Like, I feel like, uh, to some extent, this idea that an artist should go back and, uh, uh, like modify their art as opposed to take that and just move forward. Um, I think it says a lot and I, and I think it

[00:22:44] also says a lot that George didn't really move forward. Like, I feel like as far as movies are concerned, he really slowed the flow down.

[00:22:54] As far as his, his production directing, like, as, as his involvement, what, what excited him, what he created, how he created, um, the thing, I just feel like. Yeah. Like there was some emotional things tied up in that, that I just feel like, you know, had, had we seen him grow as a human. He actually probably would have just been like, oh yeah, there's no point in going back and changing these things and re uh, revising it because kind it's like, it's out, it's there.

[00:23:30] The people the people have received it, the message has been sent. Like now you're just like sending noise, honestly, to some extent, you're just sending like, well, no, not it shouldn't be like this. I got an idea. And like, and you're going to do that for the fraternity. And then to some extent, that's what you're going to start to be remembered for, as opposed to the actual things that you create and

[00:23:54] growing with your art.

[00:23:56] Jonny: I think, the hyper-specific change of my clunky kind of speaks to that where it's almost like he made this controversial change to Han solo, Greedo shoots at hon hon Dodges that laser and shoots Greedo and self-defense, which is not what the original ones was.

[00:24:14] And he keeps doing it every change. Every time they released the movie, he does something with that scene. And then finally in the latest release for seemingly no reason that anyone can comprehend before the shootout happens, it just cuts to Greedo. And he goes my clunky and like, that's not even an English word.

[00:24:35] And like it's some alien thing and then it happens. And to the extent it's like, well, did that make your movie better? Like, and it's like, at that point, is he just being like, Hey guys, I put a silly hat on the statue. Isn't it funny? And it's just like, I guess, like what he's like into what Bracey seems like it's like, George, like, what are you, what are you trying to do here?

[00:24:59] Like, it's not even like, it's not even like I'm insulted or angry at it, but it's, it's more or less like, I'm just like confused. Like

[00:25:04] what is, why you keep doing this? You know, like just leave it alone, leave it alone, you know?

[00:25:10] Josh: here's my reading of the whole McLuckie thing. because he's, he's done this with a few, other of the Special Edition changes. He's tried to fix the change to make it work a little more smoothly. And I think what McLuckie was an attempt to do was, like showing Grito saying something that was threatening, that would justify why Han would have his gun ready,

[00:25:33] Jonny: I mean, the whole conversation would justify why his gun is ready.

[00:25:36] He know what he's literally like,

[00:25:39] I'm going to take you back dead or alive, you know,

[00:25:41] Josh: No. What I'm saying is like, why he knows Greedo is about to shoot him.

[00:25:46] Jonny: right, right. Because he is, so he gives him an ankle exclamation, which is the equivalent of like you motherfucker, which is like, oh, he's about to pull on me.

[00:25:54] Josh: Yeah.

[00:25:54] Jonny: a shootout.

[00:25:55] Josh: look, that's

[00:25:56] what I think the thinking behind

[00:25:58] Jonny: yeah, yeah.

[00:25:59] Josh: is,

[00:25:59] Jonny: But it's like, did that need to be clear? It's like, did that need to be any more clear than what it already was? Like, were we as an audience confused by that scene where we, like, I don't understand why Han shot Greta. I was like, I got it the first

[00:26:11] time in 1977.

[00:26:13] Josh: know, but that's the thing. it's like what I said before, like as an older man as a father of three,

[00:26:18] Jonny: Yeah. He wanted to

[00:26:18] Josh: want him to.

[00:26:19] Jonny: more of a good guy and not a

[00:26:20] Josh: Yeah. Like he doesn't want Han solo who he knows, becomes the beloved hero figure that he is. He doesn't want that to be someone who shot someone in cold

[00:26:31] Bracey: I just want to speak to that real quick

[00:26:32] because. speaking to this as a, as a, as a father. Um, I understand that desire to like, oh shit, I don't want to look like an asshole in front of my kid. Like, you know, like

[00:26:44] I don't want my kids to realize how fucked up I was as a human being.

[00:26:48] And like, as an under developed, uh, a male mind, uh, crafting things that left artifacts of how fucked up I was like, Yeah.

[00:26:57] I

[00:26:58] don't want for that. But that to me is also that, that thing of like, Hey George, what's going on? Like, I wanna like, like, what the, what you should really be doing here is reconcile with the fact that like, Yeah.

[00:27:11] that was FDIC, but there's something actually more beautiful that you could probably do by just owning up to the fact that that was flawed as opposed to changing

[00:27:21] the flaw in the, in the past, but just like play it forward.

[00:27:25] Show him how to grow from.

[00:27:27] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:27:28] I agree with

[00:27:29] Josh: showing the growth, showing the change in the thought process, because if you just make this change and pretend that that's what it always was, or you erase what the original was, then you erase the, the evidence of the growth. It's like, oh, he started here.

[00:27:44] But then later on, he changed his mind about that. So we can see the, the progression and actually, braces, You hit on something that I'd never thought of in this way. what you're talking about, when you say George Lucas should reconcile his relationship with these films and let go, that's sort of what he has be the reason for, for Aneka and slash Vader's downfall is that he has these attachments that he holds onto so hard and he can't let go he wants to control everything and for everything to be his way. And he can't let go of that. He ends up destroying the things that he loves the most and that he fears to lose the most.

[00:28:24] Jonny: It's like poetry at Ryans

[00:28:26] to quote George Lucas.

[00:28:28] Josh: Yeah.

[00:28:28] Jonny: I feel like him selling Lucasfilm to Disney was his way of being like, I have to get rid of. because he will just, he will be a slave to it forever. And even then after, that happened and then force awakens comes out famously, he was in the interview.

[00:28:44] He was like, it's like, I sold my kids to white slavers or something like that. And it's like, he still, he still couldn't quite let go of what his, what his thing was, even though

[00:28:54] he already did, you

[00:28:55] Josh: well, that's something that I really understand though. It's like the selling of your life's work and then seeing somebody else,

[00:29:03] like,

[00:29:03] Jonny: do something totally different with it.

[00:29:05] Josh: yeah, like that, like that I, I totally get, and I don't fault

[00:29:10] him

[00:29:11] Jonny: No, no, I'm not, I'm not faulting him or anything. I'm just saying like, it, it just goes even further where it's like, you're saying how the art imitates the life with a revenge of the Sith of a little bit and understand that, that the life even has like some of that too, where it's like, he's, he's trying to let go, but he's still.

[00:29:30] You still there in some capacity, you know, like how

[00:29:33] Bracey: also won't let them go. Like, you

[00:29:34] know, I, I feel like as a community, like

[00:29:37] right now, we're literally talking about them in the context of star wars and this dude stepped away to the tune of billions of dollars.

[00:29:45] Like, you know, like,

[00:29:46] we could stop talking about him, you know, but, but as a community surrounding the culture, we won't separate the two.

[00:29:54] And so he will respond when prompted

[00:29:57] Jonny: we also want separate the two until he moves forward and gives us other stuff that has nothing to do with star wars. He needs

[00:30:04] to

[00:30:04] Josh: mean, I don't think he has to do anything.

[00:30:06] Jonny: No,

[00:30:06] no, no, no, no. I don't mean that like he has to follow our, I mean that in the sense where it's like, If we, as a society are going to separate George Lucas, more from star wars than he is that he needs to have other output than star wars.

[00:30:22] And right now he basically people know him for star wars, American graffiti, and THX.

[00:30:28] And

[00:30:28] it's just like, oh yeah. And, and Indiana Jones, but Spielberg takes Indiana Jones more than Lucas, you know, because, uh, but what I'm trying to say, it's like his biggest, longest running contribution to all of his work has been like star wars, star wars, star wars, star wars, star wars, ever since it happened.

[00:30:47] So you can't really fault society for being like, yeah, George Lucas star wars. It's like,

[00:30:52] you're not, not everybody goes on to do wings after the Beatles or whatever. It's like, you know, like he just, he's just been Mr. Star wars for like 30 seconds.

[00:31:03] Bracey: Yeah, no, I would argue there's nothing he can do at this point in his life career. that he'll, he won't be just completely tied to star wars. I would

[00:31:12] argue, I would even argue, that no one thinks of American graffiti THX or Willow or Indiana Jones or anything in general, like as a first response, when you think of George Lucas,

[00:31:25] Jonny: this is, this is, this is true. And I even mentioned wings as a joke, but when you say Paul McCartney and wings, you're

[00:31:31] like the Beatles, you know, it's just like, that's just the way it is.

[00:31:35] Josh: Are there any changes, in the Special Edition, do you like?

[00:31:38] Jonny: Yeah. I like, what they did with the X wing fighters and the battle, the death star and the first one. I don't mind that

[00:31:45] Josh: see, I actually really hate that now.

[00:31:48] Jonny: that's fine. That's a subjective thing. But like, to be honest, if I had to choose one version of watch, I would only watch the theatrical version.

[00:31:54] That's it,

[00:31:54] or the VHS version of whatever. but with the quality of HD, but my point being is that like, I don't mind it when they like go to the battle of Hoth and they like me, the canopy's more opaque. So you can't see through them, like when they touch up the effects to make them look

[00:32:11] a little bit more smooth. I don't mind that, but

[00:32:14] stuff that made it better, like, I don't know if anything really made it better. Like I seen the Wampa like chomping down on some like animal carcass. It was like, that's cool. But like, I didn't really need it. You know, I didn't need, I understand why they, uh, change the walk celebration at the end of return of the.

[00:32:35] I thought that was like, well, I guess that makes sense. You want to see the whole galaxy celebrating? Like, but it, I wasn't like, oh, this movie is so much better because of that, you know, I was just like,

[00:32:45] oh, okay. Like, this is a different shade, you know, to me all the good stuff or just different shades of what was already there.

[00:32:53] Bracey: Yeah.

[00:32:53] I would say. Well, uh, the thing that I celebrated at this time, uh, when they started getting rereleases, they also rerelease the music.

[00:33:04] And I, I don't know if they made any significant changes to the music, except for maybe like extending some areas where they extended a scene or something

[00:33:13] like that.

[00:33:14] So like a, like fluffed up an intro or something like that. Uh, to me diving, diving into the soundtrack of the Special Edition. I even remember getting them as like, gifts for, for like, for my birthday or something like that from friends. But like, um, I think that is when I actually just really connected with the music of Jon Williams for star wars and not just the, the, like the Anthem, the intro, or like whatever, like, you know, the big, the big themes that everybody knows, but like actually being able to play through and get an appreciation for the moments that like John Williams elevated with his music.

[00:33:55] Um, so I, you know, not that it was necessarily new, but I think music being reintroduced as like, Hey, listen to this, uh, that, that was my favorite part of the, of the specialist.

[00:34:11] Jonny: Yeah. And speaking of the music with, I had mentioned that you watch celebration, we all have a very mischievous. Strong affinity for a young nub, you know, that song they sing, but I don't mind the, I don't like the new song they put at the end of return of the Jedi. I thought it was like fitting,

[00:34:27] you know, and I thought I was interesting, uh, PR uh, to your, uh, point Bracey to hear like new Jon Williams music because of that.

[00:34:35] So it was kind of exciting, uh, on that level, it was probably more exciting than the effect. It's like, oh, a new Jon Williams song.

[00:34:42] Josh: Yeah. You know, I think the real legacy of the Special Edition, it's hard to conceive of now, but I think what it really did was reintroduced star wars into like popular consciousness in a real solid way, paving the way for, the prequels and then the era of, of clone wars and all of that stuff in the two thousands.

[00:35:04] star wars really hasn't left the public consciousness. since . 1997, I think it, maybe was starting to recede into the background right before the Disney sale. but in retrospect, I think, the dark times as it were between the release of return of the Jedi at 1997, like that's really when, star wars was out of the public of the

[00:35:27] public consciousness.

[00:35:29] Bracey: do you, do you know how much they invested to redo

[00:35:33] Josh: well for, well, for the first movie, so initially they were only gonna do the first movie, because there was actually a restoration project. So 20th century Fox approach, George Lucas, they were like, the 20th anniversary is coming up. we want to. Do a rerelease of some kind. And they went to the original negative, And it was in like really bad shape and they realized that they were going to have to do, a significant restoration job on it, like in worse shape than, a movie that age should have, deteriorated, Ironically, probably because it was so successful,

[00:36:06] Bracey: they, can make prints.

[00:36:08] Josh: yeah, because they kept on having district new prince.

[00:36:10] so they already knew that they were going to have to. spend a few million dollars and then while they were doing this restoration, George Lucas went to 20th century Fox and was like, you know, while we're doing this, like there are a couple of that always sort bothered me.

[00:36:23] would you consider giving me money to , make some changes or whatever, so long story short, I believe they spent about $10 million, which is what the budget of the movie was originally.

[00:36:34] Um, though, if you think about it, once the decision was made to make changes, from a marketing standpoint, that's

[00:36:42] genius.

[00:36:43] Bracey: Gold.

[00:36:44] Josh: Uh, because now all of a sudden it's not, here's, the same thing. There are some, added value here. there's stuff in here that you've never seen.

[00:36:51] Jonny: And I was actually excited for that when I was a kid, like

[00:36:55] when I heard that they're going to have all these new things, I was like, yeah, that sounds cool. New scenes, new, whatever. You know, I was really excited.

[00:37:03] Josh: No. So it was, I, it really blew my mind.

[00:37:05] Like It's so weird. The idea that. There was such a desire on my part is like a 12 year old or 13 year old, like to really see those effects, like, you know, quote unquote fixed or like modernized, because looking at some of those nineties changes now, from the perspective of 20, 22, I would argue that the Special Edition changes have aged worse than the original 1977

[00:37:33] effects.

[00:37:34] Jonny: Yes. they have.

[00:37:35] Josh: The best example of that I think is, that every time they rerelease movie, they have a new CG model of Java and the job of the huts scene. Because like, if you look at 97 version of that scene, the Java CG creature looks like something out of like a PlayStation cut scene. It's like

[00:37:52] not, it's like really not that great.

[00:37:55] Bracey: PlayStation three.

[00:37:56] Jonny: I feel like every time they do, uh, the prequels as well, they would do something to Yoda. You know, like I remember when

[00:38:02] they replaced the puppet of Yoda from Fenton minutes with the CG Yoda. And I don't know, like I just have this feeling that like at some point. George Lucas. Might've had the brief thought in his head to go back to the empire strikes back and make a CG Yoda is just so he would be streamlined from the prequels to the original trilogy and he didn't do that. So I want to thank Jane George Lucas for not making, you know, to CGI and the empire strikes back because I have a feeling that thought went into his brain and he was . Probably like, nah, it just moved on.

[00:38:33] Bracey: Well,

[00:38:33] I

[00:38:33] do think he he's thinking about this as consistently, or he had been thinking about this as the new viewers, like how are the new viewers coming into this as if somehow they're going to come into this as fresh. You know, as, as the, the people who came before, like, oh, they're going to find the star wars and they're going to watch through and they're going to, you know, and they're going to come away with this feeling.

[00:38:59] And I can't even get my kids to watch star wars.

[00:39:03] I've tried so hard. They love, they love the new shows. They love Mandalorian, Boba Fett. Oh, they love baby Yoda.

[00:39:10] Uh, they're watching visions. They love the anime, but like the movies. Oh, they like re like they liked, they Really

[00:39:19] liked the last Jedi. Uh, they can't jump on board for the other two though.

[00:39:23] Um, yeah.

[00:39:25] Jonny: weird. I guess this is very particular taste.

[00:39:27] Bracey: So they don't run through it the way that, like, I think, George imagined when he's, re-engineering the flow, the experiential flow of the movies, because I think he's like trying to constantly make it for this next generation of kids who are going to enjoy it in a new way. When in fact that is not the actual user experience.

[00:39:50] Like, you know,

[00:39:51] if you fall into it, you're going to fall into it because of the culture that exists around it, in which it's going to come with its own kind of guidelines as to oh, this is how you experienced.

[00:40:04] Josh: Yeah. Well, that's really interesting because like, just from a pure, not even the technology, but just from like a pure, maturation of film and cinematic language, like when you go from revenge of the Sith made in 2005 to a new hope, made in 1977, the style of filmmaking, the style of storytelling, the way, that information is presented to you visually and the pace of it, sensibility is so different from 2005 to 1977.

[00:40:36] And from, I mean, in my opinion, the prequel trilogy to the original trilogy in general, like the only way to accept it is to remind yourself that, oh, like these were made 25 years before the ones I just watched. So you already have to do that. I mean, I'd be very curious to like, you know, if I ever have the opportunity to actually sit down and, ask him, like, I'm genuinely curious, you know, in George Lucas's mind, is he expecting a new viewer to be able to go directly from episode three to episode four without noticing the,

[00:41:11] Bracey: The change.

[00:41:13] Jonny: a huge difference. It, you know, it's funny, you mentioned that. Cause I feel like, um, I don't know. What style he was going after with the prequels as worth the original trilogy with specifically with a new hope I feel like he's very much like, okay, I love Cora Sowa and stuff like that.

[00:41:29] And you could actually see it in his movie. You could see David lean, you could see chorus hour, you could see Jon Ford, whatever. And then like, um, and then, so you feel like the, the feeling of like the seven samurai. And then when you go into the prequels, he'll say like, oh, at this part in the scene with CGI Yoda, uh, we have him rub his head, which is just like the monk from seven samurai.

[00:41:56] He's like, yeah, you had him do that. Like the guy from seven samurai, but the movie doesn't feel like seven samurai. The movie just feels like, I don't know what it feels like. It's like, he's, he's found a new style, but it's like, but I don't know if that style is. Get the movie in the can or if he's actually going for something.

[00:42:17] And I, I

[00:42:18] still, I haven't, I haven't, I I'm going to have to rewatch the prequels again, but like I still haven't quite felt some sort of the medical, visual aesthetic, if that makes any sense.

[00:42:31] Josh: well, so, you've hit upon something. I think very interesting. Um, the reason that, Yoda head movement doesn't feel the same as when to show a muffin. And he does, it is I think, because of the film and the camera and the lens and all of like that, that quality of the

[00:42:50] Jonny: He's actually like a sweaty man. Who's actually rubbing his head for a

[00:42:53] reason.

[00:42:54] Josh: so, but the reason why it doesn't feel anything like, what it is supposed to be paying homage to, is that for all intents and purposes, they're working in two different mediums. Like I feel like George Lucas is pretending that the medium does

[00:43:10] Jonny: Um,

[00:43:10] Josh: a difference.

[00:43:11] Jonny: yeah, he he's, he's drawing with something different. He used to make oil paintings and now he's using his tablet for on a computer and he's like, they're exactly the same. It's like, it's not the same. It's not the same as an oil painting. It's it's something else, you know?

[00:43:25] Bracey: Yeah.

[00:43:26] Uh, the medium is the message. And

[00:43:27] so if the medium is the message, uh, the medium itself dictates what can be communicated within the medium. And so you change the medium, it changes what is being communicated.

[00:43:40] And so I feel like that's a, that is kind of something like, kind of, uh, in, in the lines of what both of you were saying.

[00:43:47] It's like, you've got a CG character without a lot of context that the medium inherently

[00:43:53] brought

[00:43:54] to the.

[00:43:55] Jonny: Right.

[00:43:55] I was just gonna say in the original version of the irony is when he doesn't have a seven samurai moment in the, uh, original movie. The movie feels much more like seven samurai, just because of the aesthetic of what it is. shot

[00:44:08] on film shot

[00:44:08] on location shot in wide screen with epic, with epic landscapes and yada yada, yada, you see Lawrence of Arabia and all that.

[00:44:15] And then he's like, Hey, look at this CG Senate room in a crowded frame. And like, he rubs his head. That's just like set, said timer. I was like, this does not feel like Southern sunrise. It's like, it's like, I know used to be like an Easter egg illusion to it. But like, and then my broader question was like, well, what is this movie supposed to feel like?

[00:44:32] Josh: Well, so, but that's the thing though. So, but that's the thing like, like, I feel like he he's insisting those, yes. because I feel like if he wasn't then he wouldn't have shot the last two prequels on, 10 80 P video, because they don't feel at all, like.

[00:44:51] The three movies that they're supposedly leading into. they feel cut from a completely

[00:44:56] Jonny: which can be fine if you want to do like 30 years in the past, the golden age of Jetta and like make it all different. but even then like, okay, like, let's say he wants to make a complete departure with technology and the aesthetics and stuff like that, even still it's like, I still, wasn't quite sure of, uh, what he's going after into, and to more, to your point, uh, Josh going back to the Special Edition.

[00:45:23] That idea that I think you have is sort of explains why, uh, he might think that some changes are good ideas and that maybe the rest of us find it. I know it's subjective. It's all subjective. It's art, but like, uh, I think that's another reason why we might find it jarring if all of a sudden in the middle of like, uh, like I said, on location 35 millimeter, like widescreen, chorus, or David lean sort of moment.

[00:45:51] And then you cut to like a Beavis and Butthead moment and you're like, what? And then it goes back to like the thing and it's like, oh, the, the computer graphic quality of Java, the hot or.

[00:46:03] when you asked me what change would I like to get rid of? I have to flip a coin between either, uh, Greedo shooting at Han first or the whole Jedi rocks dance number from return of the Jedi,

[00:46:14] which makes the movie come to like, but like the movie comes to like a screaming halt

[00:46:21] for like this Fraggle rock dance number.

[00:46:23] And it's like, what the fuck am I watching?

[00:46:26] And maybe in his mind, it's like, but like the baby in his mind, it's like, oh, they're all, they're all aliens and Muppets. It's all the same. And he's like, it's not

[00:46:35] like, this

[00:46:36] is like the theme and tone of the movie is totally derail at that point,

[00:46:40] Josh: It's so interesting though. because, given the, technician craftsman of a filmmaker that he is, it's so interesting that he seems to have this one blind spot, which he, of all people should understand.

[00:46:54] should see why there's a difference,

[00:46:57] Jonny: Yeah. It's like it's a month. It's not like a subtle difference. It's like a monumental difference, you know,

[00:47:03] Bracey: Yeah, I think the base understanding and film, I think that thing that I learned to appreciate when we went to a film school, um, or cinema.

[00:47:11] school, sorry, it was cinema school.

[00:47:13] Um, and Bennington cinema, uh, uh, is that the movie happens in the mind. The motion happens in the mind. And I think, the Special Editions, started to show me where I had a different story in my mind than what

[00:47:33] he.

[00:47:33] I had intended to show and I, and I now can only really appreciate the moments that made it. It is those lines that it's like before the dark times before the empire, how that was delivered, how that sat, how

[00:47:47] that echoed in my ears and allowed me to paint the picture of the past in a way that he could never have a brush find enough to do for me.

[00:47:59] And like, and then he attempted it like, you know, and then he, and then he tried to fill in the gaps in a way that he he had the hubris to think he could like actually paint the, uh, paint, such a grand scale. And like, you know, before we celebrated him for that, And he continued on that direction because he was celebrate.

[00:48:26] I mean, I believe he was rewarded for attempting to do that, but it was the cleverness in which he approached it initially where he recognized his limitation and allowed, uh, allowed the moments to actually paint something deeper and more vivid by just giving it space to the right moments. And, and I, Yeah.

[00:48:49] I feel like that's where Special Edition started to show me like, oh, I'm not going to get what I work.

[00:48:55] Josh: So when maybe you're giving me an answer to what I was saying before. Like, maybe with

[00:48:59] the, the, God damn you answering my rhetorical questions. but, um, with that, the technicians, I, all he's seeing is the Gulf between intention and what the tools are able to render.

[00:49:16] so, so the frustration. Yeah. So the frustration for him, and again, he's the only one on earth. Who has this, point of view of these movies? he's the only one who knows. Yeah. Like that's not what that was supposed to be so what he has done since making those original movies is. basically you said before, like he sort of, retreated from the director's chair and from, uh, you know, making his own movies. what he did instead was he really sunk a lot of his time and energy and money, into the R and D that created all of the tools that we all use now.

[00:49:52] Jonny: Yeah.

[00:49:52] Bracey: Thank you, George.

[00:49:53] Josh: yeah, thank you, George Lucas, if you're listening and I know you are, I just want to use this opportunity. That's very rare opportunity because I know you're listening.

[00:50:01] Does

[00:50:01] I? Thank you personally.

[00:50:03] Jonny: I saw this as like an internet comment somewhere, but someone said about the prequels or like a lot of people don't understand that the prequels are basically like huge budget R and D like workshops for him testing out new software and technology. And

[00:50:15] if it weren't for the prequels, uh, we wouldn't have modern movie making the way it is.

[00:50:19] Josh: I mean, that is not wrong.

[00:50:21] Jonny: and everything we've said about the Special Editions at the same time, it's like, God bless him because it's just like, this is a curious man who will not

[00:50:29] stop. And it's like, keep going, man. I mean, like

[00:50:32] we, we all, we all want him to succeed and it's like, and it's like, and even if he likes that stuff and we're like, George, I don't understand what you're doing.

[00:50:40] This is ridiculous. It's like, well, he's giant something, you know, and if it weren't for this, we wouldn't be where we are now with uh, movie-making and technology. So,

[00:50:49] you know,

[00:50:50] Josh: I agree. 100%. and actually sometimes I have hesitation even having conversations like this, because I don't want to give the impression that don't have the utmost respect for this man and his work.

[00:51:03] Jonny: what you mean. I don't, that's why I'm bringing it up now. Cause I don't want to seem like we're ragging on him as much as it's just like, we have our subjective artistic thought on it and then we have like his contribution to society, know? And his

[00:51:17] Bracey: Everybody's already heard everything

[00:51:18] we've said we can't take it back now. We're part of the noise,

[00:51:24] Jonny: part of the, No, is.

[00:51:25] Josh: but if you think about that though, like if you continue on with this understanding of what he's trying to do, not seeing the medium as a

[00:51:33] part of the equation, then the Special Edition changes make

[00:51:37] sense,

[00:51:37] Like, to me,

[00:51:39] I keep thinking of the changes in most isolate where, we see them, go in and we have these huge,

[00:51:45] grand

[00:51:45] shots,

[00:51:46] high up crane shots and everything is moving and it's a visual feast.

[00:51:51] one of the reasons it's so jarring because stylistically in terms of the types of shots, the kind camera movement on either side of that, nothing else in the movie is, is like that

[00:52:02] stylistically. so what was like very

[00:52:04] classic Hollywood style.

[00:52:06] establishing shots and coverage. And then all of

[00:52:09] a sudden, you, you

[00:52:10] inject

[00:52:10] these sweeping

[00:52:12] vistas with a moving camera on these, like, you know,

[00:52:15] grand shots there was nothing else in the movie

[00:52:17] like that.

[00:52:18] and I guess in his mind, he's, he's bringing them, up to spec with the movies he's about, to make, so it doesn't matter how much of that style is in there or not because ultimately that's what the vast majority of it is going to look and feel like anyway, as soon as he makes these

[00:52:36] Jonny: Sure. I think the one rare moment where I think he course corrected a Special Edition mistake. It was, um, the empire strikes back. If you watch the Special Edition. And actually to this day, when I watched the empire strikes back, I tend to watch the one at Disney plus because he made the least amount of changes to that one.

[00:52:57] Uh, you know, when you go to cloud city, instead of seeing window, as he sees like open air windows of the city, like who cares? That's fine. But in the, when the original Special Edition came out, he had this glaring. Uh, Ms. Step one, when Luke, uh, sacrifices himself to the pet after Vader's like, join me, we can be together.

[00:53:18] And he falls down the vacuum of Bessman. He added like a scream, almost like the emperor's like, ah, you know, and I remember when that first happened, I was like, what the fuck? And then when other versions of the movie came out, they took the screen out and I was like, oh great. He saw it. He was like, ah, that wasn't a good idea.

[00:53:38] And he took it out and I, I respect them for that decision. So to this day I still watched the Disney plus version of the empire strikes back because the, the ver the changes of that don't bother me as much as like the, uh, new hope and return to Jedi where I'm like, I need to find the

[00:53:55] Josh: Yeah.

[00:53:55] Jonny: I can't deal,

[00:53:56] Josh: Do you think, and the thought is just occurring to me now, but do you think he didn't realize how much we watched these movies on VHS?

[00:54:06] Jonny: Yes.

[00:54:08] Josh: I think maybe there's a part of him that had no idea. We had like, memorized every frame of this movie. And the rhythms of these movies are like imprinted on my, my retinas.

[00:54:20] it's in my DNA to a certain degree. So, so when I see a change in the movie, it just feels wrong.

[00:54:27] Bracey: I think he knows to some extent that there are so many people. I mean, he's, he got the paycheck, I'm sure he realizes people keep watching these films, um, and keep buying them and keep talking about them. I think it is inconsequential to his, his need to express himself the way that he wants to clarify.

[00:54:49] Josh: Yeah.

[00:54:50] Bracey: The thought, but what, in actual in practice, I feel like he's just showing jaws. Like, I feel like he doesn't realize that what Mead, the made the movies, what they are is what they didn't show. And he is obsessed with showing things, showing, making more clarity, but the clarity is in itself, like actually taking away from the mystique

[00:55:16] and the magic and the experience, um, uh, the way that, that he, he can't, he, he, I don't think he, he understood that he couldn't capture that by showing more

[00:55:28] like, that's what I feel like

[00:55:29] Josh: No, but no, but I don't think

[00:55:31] Bracey: that. he prepared.

[00:55:32] Josh: I think he was frustrated that that's all that that's the best he could do. I don't know that he was like, oh, like since I can't show it, I will have to do it like, this and that results in something unique and interesting on its own.

[00:55:43] Like, I think he was like, no, like, this is not It's not what I

[00:55:46] Jonny: I think, I think, both things are true of what you're saying, because I think it has, I think it's tied to a sense of clarity as well, because going back to what we said about McConkey and what you were saying, Josh, it's like, oh, he added the exclamation there to make it so that we know that a golden heart Han solo must have known

[00:56:05] he would feel more natural.

[00:56:06] And then likewise, uh, uh, to your point, Bracey like, uh, as we've talked about in other episodes, like one return of the Jedi, when the emperor is killing Luke Skywalker and you see the close-up of Vader's mask and the lights flashing on his face, and then music is swelling in the original version. You just see the mask looking back and forth from the emperor to Luke, and you can see that he's breaking and the gears are turning and we, as the audience are projected.

[00:56:34] So much onto that emotionless mask and we could feel all of his heart changing. So when he picks up the emperor, silently throws him down the pit we're like leaping out of our seats and we felt it coming. We were like, oh, he's going to do it. I bet he's going to do it. Yeah. He's like I, as an, as an audience, this is something that we talk about in that in class too.

[00:56:54] Like the audience is doing half the work for you, you know? So if you take a moment, take your time in the scene to deliver your lines and really connect to your partner. Your audience is like waiting with bated breath thick. They they're projecting onto you their own lives. And as we project onto Darth Vader, we're projecting the confliction on him.

[00:57:14] But then in the Special Edition we hear him go, no, no, no. And it's like, yeah, now it's more clear, but kind of like to what brace is saying, it's like, but then you kind of take away that like what we have to offer to the movie, if that makes any sense, like the audience participation goes out the way. When you keep explaining like McConkey and no and whatever, it's just like, you know, like even, uh, I talked about how I don't mind watching the Wampa chopped out.

[00:57:43] I'm an animal before he goes to kill Luke. There's something to the element of like hearing the

[00:57:48] noises and not seeing him. And you just see like the obscured shot of fur go by. And you're like, what the fuck is coming to kill him?

[00:57:56] And that's scarier than it showing him eating an animal, you

[00:57:59] know, like It's like jaws and alien, you know,

[00:58:03] don't show the alien, don't show the shark.

[00:58:04] It's like, just keep it, keep it in your

[00:58:07] mind, you know? And.

[00:58:08] Bracey: But that also is

[00:58:09] that makes me feel that he didn't understand what, like, it shows that there were things that may be, uh, he got by as a, as a filmmaker because of the times that the limitations actually worked to his advantage in a way that he didn't actually get to grow as a filmmaker. Like he didn't get to grow from some of the lessons because his focus wasn't on, Hey, Oh,

[00:58:37] shit that worked.

[00:58:39] His focus was on, man. I didn't get to say the thing that I wanted to say. And I

[00:58:45] feel like that dramatically affects the effected, the art and his growth and, and the output And what we've seen since.

[00:58:54] Jonny: And someone it's like the difference between him and Spielberg cause Spielberg made Joe. And he's like, oh, I've learned a very valuable lesson with this movie. And then he grew

[00:59:01] as a filmmaker from there and Lucas is like, fuck, I got to remake jaws, 25 times to get that shark. Right.

[00:59:08] Josh: Well, you know, when Spielberg made the rerelease of, of ITI for the 20th anniversary in 2002, which, oh my God, yeah, he, he famously, he replaced, the, rifles with, walkie-talkies speak. Yeah. Because again, like he's, he's, he's an older man.

[00:59:24] He has, a lot of kids. He's a father. And like, he's like, there were no reason these guns to be here.

[00:59:29] Jonny: he course corrected that though.

[00:59:31] Josh: he said he regretted having made that change. And also not only that, but, even when they released the new version on DVD, they've released it with the original theatrical cut.

[00:59:42] Jonny: Good.

[00:59:43] Josh: And yes, you're right. in recent years has said that he, he thinks that that was a mistake and he should have, left it alone. Something else really interesting about, Spielberg that, I think sheds a lot of light on something we've been talking about is he says, Steven Spielberg says the one movie he's made that he, he doesn't feel like he could make the same way now is close encounters of the third kind, because at the end of the movie, Richard Dreyfus leaves his family and goes into space inside the mothership, to go on some crazy adventure.

[01:00:15] And he's like, today I could. Make a movie where the father leaves his, family at the end.

[01:00:22] Jonny: Sure.

[01:00:23] Josh: And it makes sense because, you know, in 1977 he didn't have kids

[01:00:27] Jonny: Right. But he also didn't go back and change the ending though.

[01:00:30] He left.

[01:00:31] Josh: Yeah. But that's what I'm saying though, is that like, you grow as a person and then your, your thinking creatively changes. so when you, stay with the same project you're thinking about it changes as you change.

[01:00:44] you're thinking about what's right or wrong. changes as you evolve as a person. so when George Lucas says it's always been my intention to do XYZ. I think his subjective viewpoint. That's true because , he's seeing it from his point of view and from his perspective, he's still the same guy with the same intentions.

[01:01:06] And so it's, it's just sort of like, no, like, this is what I was always trying to do. Not realizing the execution of it is completely other than how he would have done it 30, 40 years.

[01:01:16] Jonny: Yeah. And it's funny. Cause I feel like in some way, I mean, as consumers, everyone takes ownership of the thing that they consume and stuff like that. And we as star wars fans who are now, uh, going into middle age, basically, We have to give up our toys too, like when it comes to the SQL's and stuff like that, we have to give up our toys too, you know?

[01:01:35] And I remember, um, mark Hamill talks about this with the last Jedi. He now he's like, I fundamentally disagreed with the way they took the direction of Luke Skywalker. He's like, however, this isn't my story anymore. It's the new generation story. And he's like a Nyan Nala vehicle to tell that story.

[01:01:49] So it's like, it's just going to keep going on without us. And I feel like there's a similarity between the aging star wars fans and George Lucas, because George Lucas, like I said, with selling LucasArts to Disney and regretting that decision, it's like, at some point you got to get, you have to let the kids play with your toys, you know, because if you keep holding them for yourselves, it's like, then it kind of loses the piano, the.

[01:02:18] I don't know the word I'm looking for, but basically I think it's just more beneficial to just let it be like Spielberg, let close encounters B. And he now, when he makes his new movies, they might have the opposite message. For instance, for a copilot does not go back and make Vietnam. But no, no. He goes back with, with, with godfather three, but godfather three was known as a disappointment when it came out

[01:02:42] a

[01:02:42] movie like apocalypse now is not a disappointment.

[01:02:44] So can you imagine if you went back to apocalypse now, like he did change apocalypse now he did. They, I go, but I was going to say, but like to change the tone of the movie, but I think he did, He did

[01:02:53] do a George Lucas. He did.

[01:02:56] I take that Say back to two different movies, more than George Lucas. it

[01:03:02] all back. I take it all back.

[01:03:04] Josh: one last thing I wanted to bring up because I found it really fascinating. I had a conversation with, a fan editor, how 9,000 who has done a bunch of, fan edits of the star wars movies all of them actually. But one of the things that he said that I found super fascinating was, he's a few years. Younger than us. so, he recounts when he was a kid, when he went, to the video store and saw star wars on the shelf, there were always more than one version of it. There was the original versions and the Special Edition versions.

[01:03:38] So, from his perspective, star wars already existed as these multiple versions with all of these changes and everything. So, , that's always how he knew star wars was a movie that was changed and, and played around with which

[01:03:53] Jonny: That's

[01:03:54] Bracey: emergent behavior.

[01:03:55] Jonny: that's also highly

[01:03:57] unique to his generation

[01:03:59] because before him and after him, Beforehand, we had the originals and then we had the options. So we, we were used to the originals, Right.

[01:04:07] He grew up with always having the option and now the younger generations, they only have the new ones.

[01:04:13] Like they can't go back and watch the original versions. So he's a very unique case,

[01:04:19] Josh: Yeah. Which I just, I thought it was a very fascinating thing that I hadn't, that had never occurred to me. The idea that that for him, star wars was always something that's constantly revised and revisited and sort of tinker.

[01:04:32] I

[01:04:32] Bracey: And maybe,

[01:04:32] Josh: interesting insight.

[01:04:34] Bracey: uh, you know, I found that fascinating. I think also, maybe he was, uh, maybe he is, uh, was the first or original, uh, because of the, of the times in which he entered the star wars era. But now, like remixing is just. It is the way we culturally communicate.

[01:04:55] Josh: Yeah. I mean,

[01:04:56] meme culture, at it's, most kind of, kind of elemental, particle that is the way we communicate is like, through, these clips of other materials.

[01:05:08] Jonny: Hm.

[01:05:09] Bracey: Which upon further inspection of that you realize that's how we've Always

[01:05:15] communicated.

[01:05:16] Jonny: Yeah.

[01:05:17] But what's also funny about that as an, even in meme culture, at least with someone like myself, you remember like a funny video and you'll you show it around and like, oh, let me find that video. And you can't find the original video on YouTube because like 50,000 other people have remixed it or re edited it or put

[01:05:33] your stupid commentary on it.

[01:05:34] It's like, I just want the original video and you can't find it. And it's like, history is repeating itself, but like, Much much, much smaller scale, you know, it's like, where's that original cat video. I don't want to see 50 remixes of it. I want to see the original video,

[01:05:49] Josh: so basically what I'm trying to say is go watch the lion share lion, share movie.com and, um,

[01:05:55] Bracey: Oh, we didn't talk about it. and I feel like I, I mentioned this in another podcast, but I feel like, uh, upon reflection of the Special Editions and how I feel about it, today breeze, he looks back at the Special Editions and again, sees our, how we started to talk about it in college as kind of some of the kernels that led to the lion's share, like it started this like conversation of like, why is he changing this?

[01:06:25] Like, who owns this? The conversation of like, oh, I started this, I have ownership versus the people who received that and decided that they ran with it. And, and honestly, I mean, is, an exploration of meme culture before meme culture became culture.

[01:06:44] Josh: it's a, bare fact. Oh, that's crazy. Yeah. I mean, it's about how ideas travel and change

[01:06:51] Bracey: yeah.

[01:06:52] Jonny: The

[01:06:53] Bracey:

[01:06:53] It's about.

[01:06:54] George Lucas. Not letting go of his goddamn idea.

[01:06:57] Josh: that's what I said from day one. It's what I've always said about the lion share. It's

[01:07:01] Jonny: I who wouldn't

[01:07:03] Josh: that.

[01:07:03] Jonny: hang out with George Lucas for a day, man, just to pick his brain and just pick,

[01:07:07] Josh: Yeah.

[01:07:09] Jonny: but, but like not even having to talk about star wars just to hang out, see what

[01:07:14] Bracey: Who would want to hang out with a billionaire? Well, yeah, I guess.

[01:07:17] Jonny: Oh yeah, sure.

[01:07:19] Josh: I think that about sums it up. Well, I want to thank my guests, Jon and Bracey and you'd like what you heard, please go to trashcompod.com and you can rate and review the show and find trashcompod across all social media. And,

[01:07:32] um, yeah, I was screwed up at the end.

[01:07:35] Jonny: I like how that's the ending now is you just fucking up the end.