QUITE BESIDE OURSELVES: A Discussion of ATTACK OF THE CLONES

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, and today we're continuing our coverage of the Star Wars prequels with the middle of the prequel trilogy, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, from 2002. Joining me today is Russ.

[00:00:15] RUSS: Hey.

[00:00:15] JOSH: And Frey.

[00:00:17] FREY: Hello.

[00:00:18] JOSH: So let's get right into it guys. Attack of the Clones. What are your memories of seeing this the first time?

Do you know when you saw this the first time, Russ?

[00:00:27] RUSS: Uh, I have no memory of of seeing it in the theater. Uh, very little. I know I did. Yeah, I know I did. I think I still, I still had The Phantom Menace hangover, so I don't know if I remember this film. I don't remember Revenge of the Sith almost at all. Um, but yeah, I have very little memory.

I think I was excited for, uh, like the Jango Fett situation that I knew was gonna be happening. I was pretty pumped for that going in and that's all I really remember.

[00:00:55] JOSH: So if you don't remember seeing the movie, fat chance you remember this, but do you remember going in to see it, did you know that it was Jango Fett and not the Boba Fett? Or you just saw the armor in the trailers?

[00:01:06] RUSS: That's a good question. I don't know if I'd given up, like, looking into movie tidbits at that point. Like, uh, you know, when Phantom Menace was coming out, like I read everything I could, found everything I could. I dunno if I had already given up at that point, or if it was after this film. Might have been before.

[00:01:23] JOSH: That's interesting, that "Phantom Menace hangover" as you term it. So, that was in like full effect for you then. Like your enthusiasm for this movie it sounds like was lower than

[00:01:34] RUSS: Oh yeah.

[00:01:36] JOSH: have been previously. Oh, that's interesting. Uh, Frey, what about you? What are your, what was your first interaction with this, uh with this text? This text.

[00:01:45] FREY: This text.

[00:01:46] JOSH: This text.

[00:01:48] FREY: I didn't see it in a theater. I saw Phantom Menace in the theater, but I didn't see this one in the theater, and I don't have any specific memory seeing it the first time. I think it was just on cable and I just watched it with, like, no expression on my face.

[00:02:03] JOSH: Okay, so that's interesting. So, would you say this like, I guess we're just calling it The Phantom Menace hangover, was also in effect for you then? So that's why you didn't see it in the theater?

[00:02:11] FREY: I think so. I like, I don't think I was like super specifically down on it, but I just kind of like, it didn't, it wasn't a priority for me and it just didn't have like, I don't know, like I was what, 17 and like, I guess I had

[00:02:22] JOSH: Other things on your mind?

[00:02:24] FREY: Yeah.

[00:02:27] JOSH: um. so I actually recall my first viewing experience. I actually, this movie had a premiere, I don't think it was the premier, but it was screened at the first Tribeca Film Festival. And it was my high school graduation present to get a ticket to the Tribeca Film Festival to see this premiere screening of Attack of the Clones. And I remember, um, oh God, I'm, I'm blanking on his name.

What's the guy? Oh God, this is so embarrassing on many levels. Uh, what's the guy from Rescue Me? The comedian?

[00:02:57] RUSS: Oh, Dennis Leary. Yeah.

[00:02:59] JOSH: Yeah, I saw Dennis Leary there, with like his kids, and he was like wearing sunglasses and looked like very

[00:03:08] RUSS: He's very put out.

[00:03:09] JOSH: Yes, exactly. Exactly. He seemed very put out.

[00:03:15] RUSS: I love it.

[00:03:16] JOSH: So, yeah, like I was still in Star Wars fan mode. I was, you know, I think it's interesting this Phantom Menace hangover you're talking about. I think that's something that was very real. I'm also wondering the degree to which you think some of the choices made in this movie were direct responses to reactions to The Phantom Menace.

Like, I seem to recall this perception, especially when the trailers were coming out, that this one seemed like more action packed and less, I don't know if it seemed like less silly or whatever.

[00:03:52] RUSS: Oh. Oh, it's silly. It's silly.

[00:03:54] JOSH: No, no, no, no, no. The lead up. I'm not talking about the film itself. I mean, in the lead up, there was a perception that it was sort of a course correction.

Like I'm wondering if you can recall a sense of that or if like you see anything in this movie that may be a response to the reaction from Episode One.

[00:04:11] FREY: Well, there was definitely the Jar Jar, thing, right?

[00:04:15] JOSH: Yeah, the Jar Jar of it all.

[00:04:17] FREY: Yeah, and I guess he was in the movie less, but like I remember for some reason I remember that like they were almost like, Yes, he's there, but he is like there for a second. Like there was like, there was very much like an assurance like that.

Like don't, don't worry. He's like, he's gonna be gone like at the first 10 minutes.

[00:04:31] RUSS: Well, you know, but they didn't hit him on the platform when they could have, so they spared us an early Jar Jar death in this film.

[00:04:39] JOSH: Oh, you're saying like in that assassination attempt, like the bombing, like they just could have killed him off.

[00:04:44] RUSS: Could have been stepping out to meet them and greet them and just totally, uh, like, like a victim of circumstance, like, uh, you know, wrong place at the wrong time,

[00:04:53] FREY: And you don't even, like, they don't even make it clear, like it's just like on repeat viewings. Like you're like, wait a minute, is that jar, they just died there?

[00:04:58] RUSS: just in the distance. Never, never fully accounted for.

[00:05:03] JOSH: Well, so, but that's interesting too because I think George Lucas was definitely aware. Well, no, I know he was aware of the negative reaction to Jar Jar, and I know that affected him, to the degree where, , you know, very famously his handwritten rough draft or episode to the working title was Jar Jar's Great Adventure, uh, which was sort of like, you know, the, the finger in the eye for the, the critics and the, uh, The fans who shout all over Jar.

But,

[00:05:29] RUSS: Well, real, real quick, could I, could I jump in and just ask if his name was not Jar Jar Binx? If it were anything else, would we have perceived him better? like

[00:05:40] FREY: a little bit

[00:05:41] JOSH: well, you know, you know, it's tricky. I mean, that's a good question.

[00:05:44] RUSS: not Jojo Boks, but you know something?

[00:05:48] JOSH: Jojo blanks. Well, you know, yeah. You might be onto something. I'm pretty sure. Um, the name comes from something that his son Jet said when he was like a toddler. I know that that's also where the name Gunks also came from.

[00:06:05] FREY: but also like, I don't think it's that outta line with other Star Wars scenes. Like

[00:06:09] JOSH: yeah, I mean, like the thing that I keep coming back to, like, there's a temptation to, I mean, I think there's a sense that the names became sillier as time went on. Uh, but the thing that I keep coming back to is Guido,

[00:06:24] FREY: Yeah.

[00:06:25] JOSH: it's . It's like, you know, Darth Sidious and, and like sleeves bango and like all

[00:06:33] FREY: Yeah.

[00:06:34] JOSH: Oh. But then it's like, Greedo. I mean, it's, pretty much there from day one, isn't it?

[00:06:39] FREY: right.

[00:06:40] RUSS: For some reason, maybe because, you know, we grew up with Greedo, but I feel like, I don't know, it transcends the, the term greed and becomes a whole new, I don't know, becomes a whole new thing. I dunno if that's true, but.

[00:06:51] FREY: Well, I think it's also like the, like crystal Skull, like refrigerator thing. Like everybody hated those parts of like that Indiana Jones movie and like those were there going back to like writers of Los Ark, like that, like mine train sequence or like, uh, or like chase sequence, like was equally ridiculous.

The, the raft walling and Temple Doom and like people have a tendency to like, I don't know, I think it's just the kind of, the way that it's presented in older movies. Like people forgive these things.

[00:07:19] JOSH: well, so that actually ties into something that I think we're gonna be talking about in this movie. And there's something that I argued on The Phantom Menace, show we did, where I think you're right. I think there is this line of, silliness and cartooniness that I think is kept in check by the fact that in earlier days you had to achieve all of this practically, somehow you had to physically create this effect.

Whereas with the era of the prequels and cgi, you can do literally anything, except it's untethered by the need to behave according to the laws of physics. So you, you kind of end up with this kind of cartoony, it's like slightly on the other side of the line of like, Too cartoony because there are no physics.

You have to create all the physics. so it shares that in common, just inherently with like cell drawn animation where like you have to create it all. Like, it's not just going to react naturally because it's a physical thing that you're photographing. It's like you are creating everything, including the physical laws that it has to,

[00:08:29] FREY: Yes. And then there's an understanding that you've, you've achieved that even if you didn't do the thing that was on screen, that you've achieved that in some physical way. Like whether, whether it's through like models or like, or like there's some, like there's an

[00:08:40] JOSH: Matt paintings or

[00:08:41] FREY: like it's of course, yeah.

Like, it's like it's some kind of, it's like a science project of some kind that was, that you're seeing slash magic trick.

[00:08:48] JOSH: yeah. And I mean, it's also like, um, you know, I remember this, uh, one thing on the Attack of the Clones DVD v very specifically, uh, John Noll, the visual effects supervisor and the co-creator of, of Photoshop. He's like reviewing this shot of, um, Dexter Jetter, I believe the character's name is, and He's talking about like the, the specul highlights and how they're, the, like specul highlights of the light are like reading on his head.

And I'm just thinking to myself like, you know, specul highlights, it's not something you have to worry about when you're photographing, um, uh, a puppet or a maquette or something. It's like, when you are creating CG things, you like literally have to create the light too,

[00:09:31] FREY: Right. Yes.

[00:09:33] JOSH: And like, there are just all these little things that I think we are all subconsciously going to pick up on, you know, whether we're aware of it or not.

[00:09:42] FREY: And that is ever, or like CGA effects, I feel like that is always, like, that's the battle that they're getting better and better at is like, um, making you make it so you don't, uh, notice that those things aren't there.

[00:09:55] JOSH: yeah, well I mean, like, one of the ways to do that is to be very judicious with how you utilize it. And I think, you know, something that they're doing now. I mean, obviously the technology is, you know, like you said, improving all the time. But also I think the approach to it now is like you get as much real physical stuff in the shot, like in camera as you can, and you, you kind of, you augment with CG. you know, like in the newer films, the newer Star Wars films, a lot of the aliens are physical, creatures and then they just like s CG in the like facial expressions and stuff, and like, they kind of augment what's there. So like you get the best of both worlds.

[00:10:31] FREY: Attack of the Koons, by the way, is I feel like this is like the, the king of the like, dumb physics of out of the Star War movie. Like there is so many just like, like falling, like plummeting down, like so far and just kind of like gently landing on things. Or like, uh, when I think, uh, when Obi-Wan like throws his, like a rambling hook like, on Camino,

[00:10:52] RUSS: He's using the force. It's fine. No, no, no. It's force. It's force. Guided force. Guided force landing.

[00:11:00] FREY: But like the way that he's reacting to it though, like his body, like I guess,

[00:11:03] RUSS: Oh, oh. That I agree with. Yeah. Yeah. Some of the physics are.

[00:11:09] JOSH: no. Yeah, and like, um, uh, Padme I know has several falls that seem to defy the laws of physics and yeah. It's like, you know, things just don't really have like a weight that you would expect them to have. And there's like, I'm getting really ahead of myself. but um, I do think the cg, the CG of it all, , and this is not me, condemning cgi.

I as like a concept. I don't think it's, not a good thing. I just think that, you know, it has certain drawbacks and good uses and certain, less good uses. And I think, both of those are on full display in this movie. The other thing too is that this is the first feature film shot on high definition video.

there was no film, I believe they call it, image acquisition in the biz. Uh, there was no film involved in the image acquisition in the production of this movie. It was, uh, shot on, uh, prototype. Sony, high def video cameras, I believe mastered at, 10 80 p, which is kind of crazy if you think about it.

[00:12:09] FREY: Wow.

[00:12:10] JOSH: which I think also creates this kind of, unique look that's very specific to the time.

[00:12:16] RUSS: It's, it's specific to something. Yeah. . It's gotta look.

[00:12:21] FREY: I, I kind of like, um, like there is some of the special edition, like, kind of like dumbass, like Muppet, like, um, kind of like creature designs in this. But there's some that I kinda like in this movie, like kind of like the ex like CG execution on the side. Like I like some of the designs.

[00:12:36] JOSH: no. Yeah, I mean, some of the design work, I mean, yeah, I think in all these movies, like the design work is really, you know, there's a lot to love. Certainly. it's just, I find it's like hard to know what to focus on sometimes, like, because there's so much wall to wall stuff.

[00:12:53] RUSS: Can I jump crazy ahead and tell you my favorite ship in the, in the film

[00:12:56] JOSH: yeah, go ahead.

[00:12:56] RUSS: I like, um, I like Dooku ship only with the solar sale. I think that's, I think that's very

nice. Yeah.

[00:13:04] JOSH: you mentioned that, cuz that ship drives me crazy. because it's like, it's like, I don't know, like, I'm sure this is very specific, to me and the Venn diagram of like my interests, but like in this universe where like we just accept The magic of faster than like travel, like to all of a sudden have something like very, like real and scientific and also like not a very, like, I don't know, it's like a solar sail ship.

The way that it's depicted in this movie. it like wouldn't, like, I don't know, like it doesn't belong on the screen with like ships that like jump into

[00:13:40] RUSS: Oh, it makes

zero

[00:13:41] JOSH: repulsor lifts and Yeah, it makes no sense.

[00:13:43] RUSS: know, I could, I could see Doku on a ship, like we're on a cruise. I'm in no rush to get anywhere. . I'm gonna have my, I'm gonna have my space tea. I'm gonna put my feet up. I'm gonna put on my space Victrola. I'm gonna listen to my, my old timey Jedi, Jedi records . And I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna travel to see, uh, my Lord in emperor and I'm just gonna take my time.

He's not in a rush. We have all the time, we have all the power. I kind of, that's the vibe I get from it

[00:14:08] FREY: Like space is implied. You don't have to keep saying space on everything.

[00:14:14] RUSS: for the benefit of the audience, the listening audience.

[00:14:19] JOSH: well let me ask you, when you saw that ship deploy its sale, like, did you immediately know what it was?

[00:14:25] RUSS: Yes,

[00:14:26] JOSH: was like, oh, like that's a,

[00:14:27] RUSS: Oh, you know,

absolutely. Oh yeah. I mean, that's just like, that's a, you know, being a, being a nerd, I was like, oh, solar sale. That's a clever new design that George really liked. , you know, it's like, it's like, Hey, something different. I thought, though, what I liked about it, because there's no talk and there's no dialogue.

We're really just watching, uh, ship travel. And I feel like we kind of missed that in, in Star Wars a little bit. Uh, like, I wanna see, uh, slow shots. I want to see, uh, ascent decent descent, you know, I want to see, and, and that's, that's one of the things I think I like about this movie. Um, I mean, it has many flaws.

Um, and I didn't l I didn't really care for it back when it first came out. And I will say my opinion of it has changed considerably. I still think it is, uh, not by any means, uh, my favorite, uh, of the Star Wars films, but I like it more now. And there are things about it that I see a lot of value in. And I like some of the pacing.

I like some of the, uh, the length of time it takes to get places to do things. Um, I wish there were more of it actually. It, it feeds into that kind of slow paced, uh, like, you know, people call it the Star Wars noir. Uh, it has some of that. Let, like, let's wait and see. Let's wait and see. Let's watch this. I want more of that show.

Don't tell.

[00:15:37] FREY: yeah, that is something I was like when I was watching. I'm like, this is something I do miss from not only the Newark Star Wars movies, but just movies in general.

[00:15:44] RUSS: Mm.

[00:15:45] FREY: Um, there is nothing like that. , just like somebody getting somewhere like, um, even like,

[00:15:51] RUSS: At a reasonable

[00:15:52] FREY: I don't, like, I was like kind of watched like the first like scream fairly recently and like there was a scene where like Nv Campbell's character, comes home and like, they just kind of follows her as there's like a sunset in the background and it's like setting that scene and like, I feel like that's something you would never see in a movie where it's just this character kind of like walking up like their, their porch and like, it's like this well framed shot of the sun going down in the background for like 30, 45 seconds.

[00:16:15] RUSS: That's that's an.

[00:16:17] JOSH: so, just to be clear, we are praising the time that, that the film takes to show people like traveling

[00:16:26] FREY: Or just kind of like to get a sense of like how things might feel like if you were like in that world and like you were like next to this person. Like, just for a little bit. Like, I mean, there's like a, a point where it's too much and like you're just kind of like, all right, this is getting like boring.

But like, Russ said, like it was like kind of following him, just kind of I don't know. I feel like it's kind of like immersive in a way. like in a way where it's like I feel like I'm in this room or this ship right now and just kind of like, I can feel it's a little bit of that like alien, original alien where everybody's waking up and like everybody's talking over each other and

[00:16:58] RUSS: Dooku ship also is kind of a reflection of his personality here. He got like this kind of old timey Jedi master turned, and here's this like, old timey, like old, like pre old Republic, potentially ship and technology. It's like, no, no, you know, I've had the ships, uh, since it came out.

I'm just, you know, I, I, you know, I maintain it. I keep it up. I wax it. Uh, I've been, I've been flying the same ship for years. I see no reason to buy a new ship. Uh, sure, you know, new amenities. A lot of people get new ships, but I'm, I'm good with my ship. I think it's, I think it's a great ship. It gets me where I have to go very reliable.

You know, it's like driving an old boat around town, you know, it's, it's, uh, and so I feel like it reflects this character and that is something I feel is extremely specific and nuanced, and I like it. I, I like it a lot. I, I miss things like that. so now I like that show .

[00:17:42] JOSH: Oh cuz that's interesting because like, you know, one of the things that for me, I think this movie does is it sort of, there's a lot of travel, things travel at the speed of plot. You. , I think like, you know, when the Jedi show up miraculously at the end and save the day, it's sort of like, when they were on tattooing that they're like so much closer to Osis than from Cosent.

So like, they have to go. And it's just like, I don't know. I mean, one of the things that is always kind of tricky in these movies, and I'm trying not to think too hard about, is like the speed things travel and how big the galaxy actually is. Because like sometimes, they travel around the galaxy, you know, like it's New York City and sometimes they travel around the galaxy, like it's, you know, the entire planet and it's like, well wait, is going from this planet to that planet, like g going from one borough to another?

Or is it like flying from one country to another or a continent? It's like,

[00:18:38] FREY: I wonder why that, if that's part of the reason why things tend to take place on just like the same few planets, more and more

[00:18:46] JOSH: well one of the things that you, uh, you could be picking up on, it like might have to do with the fact that so much of the plot hinges on the physical separation of. the leads and it's like, okay, you are going to travel here with her and you are going to travel, to this other far off, spot and like do

[00:19:04] FREY: Yeah. It's like

this

full-blown like ab story structure, like , I feel like more than like any other movie, like they, it's just Obi-Wan scene, Anakin scene, Obi-Wan scene, Anakin scene.

[00:19:14] JOSH: yeah, I mean it is kind of interesting like the other, we noted this in, the Empire Strikes Back Podd we did way back when. that's the only other Star Wars movie that I can think of that like very specifically and deliberately separates the characters. And it kind of does a similar thing, to the point where I almost have to wonder if it was knowingly done this way, but sort of the two characters that have to fall in love are sort of separated together.

And then like, you know, the Jedi has to go off and do Jedi stuff all by their lonesome.

well one of the things that I think is interesting, Russ, you alluded to it earlier, the movie starts off, A bang, a literal explosion, the first of several assassination attempts on, Padme's life.

And, you know, what do you think of the way the movie starts out?

[00:20:01] RUSS: Uh, unexpected for Star Wars. Um, I mean, star Wars, I think like one of the ideas is like the action's already happening and we're just kind of peeking in as it's going. So like, it's already going. Get, get involved, like get hooked, get hooked quick. Uh, this one, this one's a little slower because we kind of get to see the lead up to it, a, anyway, I mean, I guess the action is already happening, of course, but, I, I appreciated it.

more so now because like it says the tone, it is a little, a little bit off, a little bit, little somber, a little, little. Um, you know, even in the musical cues and, and in general, William, the score, it's kind of leading you to believe like things are, things are a little different here, uh, this time around.

and then to go into a plot driven by a mystery, , like whodunit, , I think that's, that's interesting to me. It's, it's different, uh, for sure. Um, in the theatrical cut, you know, like, you know, pretty quickly. there's, there's some. Some shadowy people, not so shadowed , you know, giving direction.

There's layers of, of bounty hunter mercenaries, uh, in potentially involved in this, uh, in this plot. Uh, you know what, what their driving action is. You're not quite sure yet, you know, what the cause of, but um, it pulled me in. It pulled me in pretty quick. Um, again, more so this time around being able to look at it with some, some time and distance away from, seeing it, you know, theatrically or

[00:21:16] FREY: I guess we'll talk more about like how, how 9,000 cut later, but like the, even like that, that's like one kind of edit there that kind of enhances, I think what Russ is talking about where like they, it pretty much like cuts the like dialogue, like all the dialogue before that explosion happens, so it's even more jarring.

, so like, I guess technically yeah, you are, it's like you're in the middle coming in the middle of action in the sense that like you're seeing a ship come in and you don't know exactly where they came from, but like the first thing you see is just somebody like exiting and the nerves of explosion.

[00:21:42] JOSH: No. Yeah, I actually think the opening of this movie is really effective. Uh, like you were saying, Russ, like it is very moody. the music is very like, sort of, sort of ominous and kind of mysterious, like

[00:21:52] RUSS: it's cloud cover. Yeah.

[00:21:55] JOSH: right. Yeah, it's cloud cover. I think it is more effective in the Hal 9,000 cut for the benefit of the audience.

So, Hal 9,000 is a fan editor. he's been a guest on, this podcast a couple of times, and, he has a fan edit of, star Wars episode two. that I think I've said several times on the podcast. Like his, his edits of the prequels are my go-to versions of the prequels because I think they do things like you said Frey, where he just he nps and Tucks and like you know, he took out the, the dialogue where the characters are just sort of stating the obvious and removing it actually really enhances the effect of what's actually happening in the scene.

[00:22:35] FREY: that cut makes this a straight up good movie. I think like this is as a first, uh,

[00:22:39] RUSS: 100% agree.

[00:22:41] FREY: Yeah.

[00:22:42] JOSH: no. Yeah. Which I think, you know, really says a lot. I think it really speaks to the fact that, the devil really is in the details. Like, there's a good movie in here

[00:22:52] FREY: Yeah.

[00:22:52] JOSH: and I think, you know, the existence of the Hell, 9,000 edit of the movie is really testament to that fact. It's like, that version of the movie to my mind is, is like a good movie. whereas I think the theatrical cut of the movie, it's sort of, there's a lot of good stuff, obviously, because look, the how cut is just working with the raw materials of what was in the theatrical cut.

[00:23:14] RUSS: in, in that beginning, when, when, when the, the Naboo, uh, I don't know, like luxury diplomatic ship is, is cutting through the clouds. It's like one shot. And you see it's real like, uh, really wide wingspan. It's got this very like steam punky looking thing where you see corson, uh, totally clouded up and it's just like really magical.

I'm like, no, that is the best looking shot You had like linger, linger there. We've ne we haven't seen like a future city, like with a total cloud le level, like masking the whole city. It was, I thought it was really beautiful and kind of, uh,

one of those,

[00:23:47] FREY: And kind of the opposite of the original Star Wars aesthetic were, I mean, I guess it's like what the whole, the prequel cji is about, like visually, but like that's a good example of a, like, this is the opposite of beat up garbage . Like this is,

[00:24:01] RUSS: There, there is a lot of clean lines. I mean, Naboo particularly, like you have kind of old, old world looking, um, planet like buildings very, very, like, very Italian. I think they, they were shooting in Italy for parts of that, um, if I recall. But yeah, very, very clean. Um, very new, very, very like pop art colors at times.

Like I think of like the Naboo Starfighters. Uh, and yeah, I think it's a good contrast. And I remember, you know, watching those George Lucas interviews on the VHS tapes where he is like, you know, I wanted, I wanted a cold white planet. I wanted a, a dense green planet. Like he wanted, he wanted the planets to change, uh, and be very dramatic.

And I feel like maybe it's not as dramatic. All the time, but between, uh, croissant Camino, like we get like different weather systems, different styles, and I feel like they, they try to push it in this film, which I also enjoy.

[00:24:48] JOSH: Yeah, I mean, it's certainly true also, like, those interviews that, uh, you're talking about on the, thet, h x remastered versions of the, the original trilogy on VHS in the nineties, and yeah, like that stuff that George Lucas is talking about, you know, each of the environments in those three movies has like a very, , particular color palette and design sensibility.

And one of the things that he says, I even think he says it in that interview, is that, you know, there are only so many environments that you can find on planet Earth. And now with the advent of c g I, he does things that he, uh, he couldn't have done then. Like he does a water planet. he's got the city planet. I don't know what you would call Osis at the end. It's sort of a

[00:25:29] RUSS: It's like a Monument Valley planet. You know,

[00:25:31] FREY: yeah,

[00:25:32] JOSH: yeah.

[00:25:32] RUSS: it's like the western planet. Dusty, dusty, Rocky, Western

Spaghetti

[00:25:37] FREY: basically it's John Carter of Mars

[00:25:39] RUSS: there, that's actually the best

description. Frey

[00:25:42] JOSH: No, that's actually a good, yeah. Frey

[00:25:44] FREY: something I wanna talk about. I mean, we'll get that later. Like, some of the creature design is actually done by, I think Terrell, Whitlock Wedlock. Like

the, yeah. And she worked on that movie as well, which kind of tracks. Like she like, um, cuz I remember thinking that movie. she created like the Shocks. I think they're called like the, kind of, I, I think of like the tick sheep creatures that like Anakin rides on, like

[00:26:07] JOSH: Yeah. Yes.

[00:26:09] FREY: like, yeah. And she's like very, like, she knows a lot about, animal anatomy, which I think kind of, you can get a sense of that.

Like with some of the Jim's design, all the creatures moving, I think some of them are the, are actually more expressionistic and like, but the like, ones like that are, you can, you can see that there's like a lot of like anatomy going on.

[00:26:26] JOSH: Yeah. She was interviewed, I think in the light and magic documentary, I believe.

[00:26:30] FREY: Oh, was she? I think I, I don't think I saw the last couple episodes of that. I forgot to finish watching them.

[00:26:35] RUSS: So, so something I'm thinking of, cuz we're, we're kind of at the beginning and we, um, uh, I guess not to to re rehash the plot, but, because this, assassination attempt, Jedi Council's contacted and we get, thrust into our plot. Um, Anakin is going to, to be, I guess chaperoning or Bodyguarding, padme.

Uh, and I think what's what's interesting for me is knowing that this is it. This is the film where, he's grown up and he essentially has to, fall in love, vice versa with Padme to make that connection. And so for me, watching the theatrical cut and then watching, the how hell a thousand cut, like drastically different films because that, that, to me, this whole thing hinges on that moment.

Uh, or, or not that moment, but that, that process of, those two reconnecting and then, falling for each other, uh, in like a really deep way that has to carry through to be the driving force behind the akins or, or, or most of Anakin's, turn and, and to kind of highlight, his emotional, flexibility.

and, and the, I just have to say off the bat, like the helmet, a thousand cut, totally nails it, it eclipse and fixes it. Nips and tuxes. You say, uh, all the problems I had, which basically is any of anakin's, uh, emotional outbursts and, and just the fact that, that they, they linger on them. Everyone's watching him, uh, in these, in the very beginning scenes, having outbursts like very childish to the point where, uh, no, no mo no woman's going to, uh, be attracted to that, that, that, like, that petulant type of childish behavior that's highlighted in a theatrical cut.

It's like push is like, that is his character. He is, he is a, like, not even angsty teen, he's just a, he's a, a child. and Helen sca totally tr basically trims it to the point where he actually seems stoic in a lot of scenes. And that to me, uh, is really, it sells me like, all right, he's stoic. He's, he's a little brash, but he's, he's exciting and stoic.

[00:28:28] FREY: Yeah. That's why I don't think like, um, like Aidan, Christian's performance is even bad. Like it got a lot of FLA for a bit like everybody call it like wooden, which I think those were the best parts of like his performance and like cutting out like the part where he's just kind of a whiny creep for like

[00:28:41] JOSH: A whi creep is a no. A winey creep is a good, is a good. Um, you know, one thing that I will say is like, Russ, I, I do echo your, feelings about, how Anakin comes off in this movie and also, how much, how's edits really almost completely fixed that problem uh, one thing that I will say is that, that in the decades since this movie has come out, I think there's like an inadvertent, commentary on kind of, that, uh, whiny entitled, this is a certain kind of an archetype that I.

Recognize now in the real world that I don't know was clear, to me at the time, maybe cuz I, I was whiny and entitled when I was however old I was in 2002. But, um, there's something about the portrayal of the depiction of the character in the theatrical cut that, rings a little uncomfortably true in a way to me now that it did not 20 years ago.

And I don't know if that's, just like my perspective changing as I get older or the omnipresence of like, I mean, if you were to create a villain character that you weren't supposed to, like, now you would create something like the way Anakin Skywalker is depicted in the theatrical cut, whiny and entitled you know, cocky for no reason,

[00:30:01] FREY: yeah, there, but there, I guess there is something he said about like, I mean, he is an a villain at this point, and there was something said about just kind of like throwing, like recognizable, embarrassing behavior on a screen for your protagonist,

[00:30:12] JOSH: no man, I'm with you. No, no, no. I don't think it's effective for what this movie thinks it's doing. Like, I don't think that that's what the movie thinks it's doing. I think that it's, I mean, I'm honestly not quite sure what it thinks it's doing though. Um, though it's like, it is very clear to me that I don't think a lot of thought has been given to the interiority of Padme.

Like, because I don't know how how anyone could look at Ana and Skywalker in this movie and be like, yeah, that's a desirable, uh,

[00:30:47] RUSS: is a specimen.

[00:30:49] JOSH: yeah. Like that is a specimen. Like I just don't, it's almost like nobody thought about what this would seem like through Pad MA's eyes.

[00:30:59] RUSS: That's all that matters. That is the, the, the most important perspective of his character, in my opinion in the film. Um, yeah,

[00:31:06] JOSH: you know, which is interesting because I think there's something to like, you know, um, star Wars has, has always been touted for its, depiction of strong female characters. And while I think that's true in a sense, like yes, but the movie's not really concerned with, like I said, the interiority of these characters just like it.

The movies aren't told. These aren't stories about the women, like the women are just there as like supporting players for the men. So like what they think or how they feel is only important insofar as it affects what the male protagonist feels

[00:31:45] FREY: and that's it. Like I feel like it's interesting that the Hellman Hellman thousands fix for that is to kind of remove, I guess the interiority for, for Anakin. But just kind of like a lot of that attitude in a Hayes perspective. Cuz like, one of my favorite kind of major changes are is the, uh, that kind of romance section where it's, they cut out the fireplace, he cuts out the fireplace scene, and like he, uh, and it's just that kiss that I think he changes it to nighttime and it's just like a 32nd scene of the kiss that like is cut off and it's just like very effective.

Everything is communicated like the kind of the passionate romance between them and like, even the fact that it, the dims the scene kind of like makes their expressions like a little bit more passion filled and it's just kind of like, that's all you need to know. Like, and you don't have I for either of them.

Like you just understand that these are two people that are falling in love and like, and it's just a, and insanely economical like kind of change that, like they cut out, he cuts out like just almost all of that whole section and it's so much better.

[00:32:46] RUSS: I gotta say, if you wanna really like, score some points and really connect with your partner or maybe someone new in your life, you need to getaway to Abu. Like, that is, that is the, the date destination. You got this like island Airbnb going on, they're, they're having picnics. Uh, it's, it's really like, that's it.

They're, they're, they're in this big field. It's, it's like a, like a, like a Monet painting. It's that, that's a romantic destination. Naboo, if I've ever seen one, it's like nothing could be helped. Like, like even, even if he's a Petant child in his behavior, you get out to Naboo and things just change. It all

just falls away.

melts away.

[00:33:27] JOSH: Well, you know, yeah, like what you said, Frey is really true. Well, what, both of you said, like the romance plot is so much more effective, uh, by leaving things unsaid and just like letting it play out with looks and without the dialogue.

[00:33:42] FREY: Yeah. And also the scene with Padme's family was great too, cuz like that I feel like it's almost like cribbing from like a romcom where like, it's just like you're seeing it through a family's eyes and like, so like he, we can tell that he loves you or like he's into you. they're looking at him through the window.

Like it's such like a rom scene. But it works so well because it's just,

[00:33:59] RUSS: It does the

heavy lifting.

[00:34:00] FREY: perspective of like their relationship.

[00:34:02] JOSH: Yeah. Well, it's interesting too because it's also like, you know, you said before that, we sort of lose anakin's interior. But like, I don't think we do. Like, I think what happens is cutting out the dialogue, you put the two of them on an equal playing field. And I think you infer the interiority rather than like, you're hearing one person sort of like vomit out exactly what he's feeling and thinking.

And the other one is like, what are you doing? Stop it. . And, and it's sort of, um, so what you just, brought up though is a really good point because now in the how cut, where he restores these deleted scenes of, them staying with Padme's family on Naboo, you do, for the first time you get the hint that maybe Padme is actually interested in Anakin.

And that's not something that you ever get in the theatrical cut, like the hint that Oh no, it's on her side also. So when, she professes her love for him at the end in the theatrical cut, it's, it's, it's sort of like, whoa. Like where did that come from? Like, I, I thought you were like, very over this dude who's like creeping on you and then all of a sudden you do this like heel turn.

Uh, whereas in the how. You do have a moment where you get a hint that she's attracted to this guy.

[00:35:21] FREY: Yeah. And by the way, I like him at Theatric Cut. The way that that, that they get around that is that they have a scene earlier where she's like, we can't do this. And then like, so then like when she professes her love is love her, love for him, like later, he's like, what? Really? I thought you said that. And it's just kind of like, yeah, that's what we're thinking too.

Like what really

[00:35:41] RUSS: But you said no. Said we wouldn't.

[00:35:45] JOSH: yeah. You know, it's really interesting. I think comparing the how cut to the theatrical cut is actually, , really profound in what it reveals, because like if the only change he made was the cutting out of certain bits of dialogue, how much more effective that makes the scenes that like, the dialogue is supposedly working in service of, you know, it's an interesting thing. Like this isn't a problem that just this movie has, it's like when a writer is writing a movie, they need to express ideas and communicate ideas through the words on the page. Like someone needs to be able to read it and clearly understand what's going on. And like you do that through dialogue and then you shoot it that way.

And then like, usually what happens though is like you realize, oh, okay. Like now that I'm seeing it and I see the expression on the actor's faces and I see the physicality and I see what's going on, like we don't need that line in there. Like, you know, we can cut that line. And I just feel like what happens in this movie is all of those lines are left in. So it's sort of like, you know, and that happens a lot. It's like, you know, you'll have a writer will like write out a whole monologue for a character to say, and then like, you know, you get on set and the actor's like, I mean, I'll say this, but like, I could just convey all of this in like a look and it's like, oh yeah, you can, can't you

I can. So, so, um, you know, one of the, the tricky things about translating a written script to the screen, uh, you know, through performance, through shots, through through editing.

[00:37:15] FREY: that was another hell cut was the, uh, when they're chasing the assassin. And, um, I mean there's also, it cuts out the anakin losing his lightsaber, but like right after that, they also cut their entrance into the club. And like, uh, when Anakin is like, I chance, he's like, I'm trying, like I am trying, you're like a father to me.

But it's just like this very, like, it sounds like it doesn't mean it, and then like, it doesn't, like it just seems, it seems like something he shouldn't be saying there. and that cuts what works better for that for other reasons too, because like, there is like 20 seconds of like the point of view looking around.

That's just kind of like a weird pacing thing that he fixes. But I like that they cut out that line about the father because he says that later on to Padme in a very, like, much more emotional moment where it's

[00:38:00] JOSH: Yeah. Where, where it sounds like, yeah, where it sounds like he means it, it's like he won't say it, he wouldn't say that to Obi-Wan's face. but like, you know, like when he's emotional, like he admits it to her. yeah, it's just really incredible. I think it really speaks to the power of editing and how less is more, when you compare these two versions of the movie. you know, Russ, you said something about how, uh, this sort of like Star Wars noir. and like, it really is like, you know, the extent where like the beginning in the clouds is like a very like, noirish sort of a thing and like, playing with, light and stuff like that and like obscuring things with the fog. Um, there was a vice documentary series that came out last summer about the making of Star Wars. I happen to be Rewa uh, rewatching it recently cuz that's what I do in my free time. I rewatch things about the making of Star Wars that I've seen already and it, um, and you know, one of the interviews, they had in that, was with Jonathan Haes, a writer who, um, who wrote on young Indiana Jones.

And he, um, he's credited it as the co-writer for this movie. And he said that when he met with George Lucas about writing this movie, he said, George had two things. He had the beginning of the movie, which I assume is like the assassination attempt, and he had the end of the movie, which is they get married at the end.

And like he and George Lucas sort of had to hash out like, The story was like everything that, of happened in, in between the very beginning and the very end. Um, and I do think it's interesting that they utilized like a very genre, plot structure to kind of fill in the blanks, right?

It's like, well, let's, you know, make this like a detective noir.

[00:39:48] FREY: Procedural,

[00:39:49] RUSS: I mean, I mean, there's Venetian blinds in, in that in like the night sequence. Like you're, it's, it's like dead on noir. Um, you know, of course with like, you know, killers, slugs, but, it's all there. Like, and it's also dark, it's moody. and then it goes right from a noir to a fifth element meets Blade Runner, uh, air chase, which I think is actually pretty good as one of the action sequences.

Um, I enjoyed it more than pod racing,

[00:40:15] JOSH: Well this is kind of the, the podres equivalent of, this movie. It's

sort of,

[00:40:20] RUSS: Yeah.

[00:40:20] JOSH: I don't have it in front of me, but, but I feel like it probably even happens at the same like, runtime,

[00:40:27] RUSS: Uh, there, it's, it's very

[00:40:29] FREY: is that that early

or This is, this is pretty early in this

[00:40:31] RUSS: Yeah, it's pretty early, but, but it actually goes on for quite a while. What's interesting too, is it's so, like visually, you have these like moments of Blade Runner. There's even almost like, like, uh, uh, you know, fires off in the, in the, the far parts of the city. Uh, it has that kind of future city feel.

And then like, it does have some kind of like fifth element like taxi cab comedy going on in it too. Um, and then also you, you and then also you find out that Jedi are essentially, you know, space, uh, wizard superheroes because they're, yeah, they're, they're slowing themselves down. They're, they're leaping out of things, leaping through transparency deal.

So like, uh, having read a lot of Star Wars novelizations, I wanna say they explained the transparent steel, uh, windows on a spaceship. Um, so essentially Obi-Wan threw himself through like, like the quote strength of like metal. Uh, but anyway, I mean, logic, logic aside, uh, he's the force to push to the molecules away as he jumped through.

Uh, but he, it's cr as a crazy action sequence that I think it's actually I'm very exciting, uh, for the movie. Um, and that's like our first kind of taste of actually, and some lightsabers are, are, you know, uh, ignited. But that's, that's the most interesting of the sequences until we get to, um, I guess the Communo fight.

And then later the, the asteroid, uh, bombing, uh, like remote mind, uh, sequence, which I also think is actually pretty good. ,

[00:41:56] FREY: By the way, I, I like to think this is like some intentional mild hypocrisy on Obi-Wan's part like, uh, or George Lucas has like intended the hypocrisy, but like, I feel like when he is kind of trying to uh, Kind of like Chas a Anakin about like, no, we're, we're gonna stick to the mandate. Um, like investigation.

It's not part of that. Like, we're not gonna, like, we're just protecting, like, we're just protecting. But then like once, like the assassination stamp happens with the slugs, the first thing Obi-Wan does is jump out the window to completely leave the person that he's, that's supposed to be protecting to chase down and find out who this is.

[00:42:28] RUSS: Not, not only that, but it seems like it's happened before. Cause anakin's like, all right, lemme go get a ship to go catch him. Like

it seem, it seems like Obi-Wan, is like, like this is his first move. Like I'm jumping through a window anytime. Like Def in Star Wars is like essential.

[00:42:45] JOSH: Um, no, and it's also interesting too, uh, to go on like the intentional hypocrisy thing because. So Obon, he doesn't skip a beat, he jumps right out that window, , without knowing what's on the other side. , like he just, he just, he, he jumps without looking. And then, minutes later, I mean, Anakin more or less does the same thing when he jumps out of the speeder and the Atkin's.

Like, I hate it when he does that. It's like, you just did the same fucking thing.

[00:43:11] FREY: Yeah. But I

[00:43:11] JOSH: You

[00:43:12] FREY: when I do it. I just hate it when he does it.

[00:43:14] JOSH: Yeah. Right. Well,

[00:43:15] RUSS: Do as I say, not as I do. Yeah.

[00:43:18] JOSH: yeah. Well, um, and you know, there's this interesting, um, observation that, friend of the podcast Chris made on the Phantom Menace episode that, you know, he thinks that like, one of the things about the Obi-Wan Atkin relationship is that it's not really so much father and son, it's, it's, they're more like brothers.

And, and Obi-Wan is more like a child, raising a child,

[00:43:43] FREY: Yeah.

[00:43:45] JOSH: uh, which I think is actually a very, good observation. Uh, because like a part of the thing in the original trilogy is that, , you know, Obi-Wan was like, I thought I could train him, but like he wasn't ready. And I think, going off the Phantom Mena. We get Obi-Wan. he's still an apprentice to Quan and then he jumps right from apprentice to master like he wasn't necessarily ready to be a master. He may have been ready to be a Jedi on his own without a master. but was he ready to train another Jedi?

[00:44:14] FREY: Yeah, no,

I think

that's exactly it and like, I like the, actually, I think the kind of elevator scene at the beginning supports that cuz like when I'm talking about the gundark nest

and like, cause. First of all, I love that. Cause I think that's like one of the scenes where, uh, you McGreer has a fake beard because he was like filming a down, but like, he just like, was like, as I recall, like I wanna say with you, he was like, oh, yes, I does that weird.

Like, it sounds like an adr, like Chuckle, his mouth isn't like, uh, open at all and he just like, he's like

[00:44:45] JOSH: I think he was trying to do an Alec Guinness.

[00:44:47] FREY: that. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. But like, I don't know. It's, it's, yeah, it's like, but it's in that case, like, since it comes off like very condescending and like

[00:44:57] JOSH: No, but you know what's funny though? Oh, you just made me realize like, uh, there's another, scene, there's another exchange between them, you and McGregor also has like the fake facial hair. So it was also obviously in the reshoots. And it's another example where he does like a very. like a very clearly intentional, Alec Guinness impression, when he's, chastising Anakin outside the club about, losing his lightsaber and he is like, this weapon is your life. And, and it's like, so you're making me wonder, like, I wonder for, the pickups if, uh, you and McGregor like, oh shit.

Like I forgot to put some all Guinness in my performance. Like, I'm just,

[00:45:34] FREY: that.

[00:45:35] JOSH: I'm just gonna be all Guinness in all of these, uh, reshoots.

[00:45:38] RUSS: Let me

[00:45:38] FREY: I love the lights. The lights scene is funny because he's like, I forget how the line, the word appliance go, but like he says that and then like, Anakin is like turning around to go in and he like, kind of stops him to like say something else. He's like, wait, I'm gonna done yet. He is like, I think it's cuz he says like, he wanted there too high not to run, but like, it's just like an an essential like kind of like piece of information.

He's just kind of like, no, listen to me. Like you get, we're gonna Sandy already go in and listen to what I say before you go in there.

[00:46:03] JOSH: Yeah. It's, um, what do we think about that, club scene? It's like,

[00:46:07] RUSS: I am literally looking at it right now. , um,

[00:46:10] JOSH: I mean, it's obviously supposed to evoke the, uh, the cantina scene. Like, what with the de arming of the patron

[00:46:17] RUSS: let, let me say this. I, I keep on freeze framing it and I just

[00:46:21] JOSH: I know what you're free framing

[00:46:22] RUSS: no, no. There's actually a character she's wearing Daisy Dukes, like, she's just like the, the, so the production design in this film is like 50 50 sometimes, like, that's actually really good. Star Wars. Sometimes, uh, it's just a coffee kettle in a diner, like on a counter, like, like, or, or regular chairs from like, like a, like a vintage store.

Like it's, it's

[00:46:40] FREY: Yeah, no, there was, I was just literally like an Ikea chair in like, uh, pad MA's apartment.

[00:46:44] RUSS: yeah, it's, it, it's really like, sometimes it's amazing and sometimes, like, we just need a chair here right now that looks futuristic, but in that club, , because it's shot in what I call the prequel style, um, it's these really wide shots where everyone's kind of standing in a green screen space and there's not no density on the top and bottom of the frame.

And a lot of, a lot of shots, you know, they, they try to block it in a way that builds, builds it. But, um, there's no, there's no like fog in there because I don't think the fog would've worked, like a fog machine would've worked well at the camera. And that's part of the issue. Uh, that's my guess. But the outfits in that club are just regular, like jackets with extra pads on them.

Like it's really not as exciting as the cantina. So I would say not great. like overall, uh,

pulls me out.

[00:47:29] JOSH: also, um, you know, I'm of two minds of this, uh, There's a Star Wars YouTuber who complained in the last episode of, and or that like, you could see a wall was made of like bricks and everyone was like, you fucking moron. Like it's a brick.

[00:47:44] RUSS: This guy's got cargo pants. This guy's got cargo pants here.

[00:47:48] JOSH: this guy's got garbage. Uh, but like, he, uh, so, so I hate to give this guy credit, because I don't, like him particularly much. But while I think in that instance he was, he was wrong I think broadly what he was saying was right. Like there's this weird invisible line of, when something feels star wary versus, when it feels, something a little too, a little too earth-like.

And I feel like this movie, out of all of them, has the most examples of falling on the wrong side of that line. And I think it has something to do with, um, all of the domesticity in this, it's like lots of like family homes, lots of like, personal spaces, like in, um, Padme's apartment, uh, uh, the bedroom, like you were talking about it.

The bed looks like a bed you could get in Ikea. And it just like really pulls me out. It's like, oh. It's like they sleep in beds, I guess. And it's like, well, it's like, I mean, yeah, of course they sleep in beds. but like, the line that these movies have to ride is like, you're not ever supposed to be thinking about, the kinds of beds that they're sleeping in,

[00:48:57] FREY: Yeah,

[00:48:58] JOSH: know, like, which I think is the point in like, just like having a more or less regular looking one.

It's not like a crazy space bed, because like that would also pull you out of it. Uh, but there's this thing that the original trilogy does really well where, you know, like the production design, because like there is like a dinner scene and a new hope.

There is a kitchen and a new hope. but for some reason, like none of the stuff like none of their utensils or anything, or their like, mixers or whatever, like really stand out is like either, too spacey or, too real

[00:49:32] FREY: It's more like the people in this universe like don't have the same thought, quite the same like thought patterns of the set. Like we wouldn't think, like, it's just weird that they would think it's just like, what do they have? Like MDF wood? Like what?

[00:49:42] RUSS: This is the diner problem. The diner has bar has diner stools and it looks

like a re, like a, it looks like a retro diner and like it really should look more like a cantina. It should be more utilitarian by far. It has. And even, even the waitress looks like she's a regular American diner waitress. It's like her outfit.

And I just think it really, like, I know that a lot of complaints and I think, uh, Hal cut a lot of the diner down started later when, um, Obi-Wan's already sitting in the booth. Um, it really, yeah, it really does not fit Star Wars. Now the idea of going to a diner is great. Um, I think it's better in the truck stop and space balls.

Um, but, and, and, um, it, it doesn't fit. I will, I will backtrack though. Uh, I did say that the person's wearing cargo pants and I just think it was knee pads that looked like cargo pants. Cuz Boba Fed has car cargo pants. So Star

[00:50:32] FREY: It was very big of you to to correct

[00:50:34] RUSS: Star Star Wars has pants and pockets and pouches and that's just the way it's gotta be.

You got a lot of space stuff to put in your pants.

[00:50:43] FREY: all my space stuff,

[00:50:46] JOSH: , no. Yeah. Like, I'm glad you hit upon the diner thing, I'm with you. Like, I like the idea of him going to a diner. I even like the idea, the larger idea, that Obi-Wan is like friends with this like random short order chef from this, this like cd whatever. It's just like, it's just really in the execution.

And again, like I get that he's clearly going for a, like a very heavy American graffiti mod here. Uh, the same with the speeder, the yellow speeder is like,

[00:51:14] RUSS: Well, Naboo star Fighter like, okay, we

got it. Yeah, we

[00:51:19] JOSH: the connection between the

[00:51:20] RUSS: Almost, almost a little bit overkill. Let's get back to gray. Let's get back to gray please.

[00:51:25] JOSH: yeah, I mean it's this weird thing. It's like, why is one thing Star Wars and another thing sort of feels like not Star Wars and it's tricky. I try not to fault the movie too much for those things because it is a very tricky moving target. It's like sometimes, you know, things are acceptable and, and sometimes they're not and you just can't really explain why.

And if you like had to scrutinize every single thing for that, , you'd probably never make the movie. Um, . But yeah, it's an interesting phenomenon. And again, I think this movie has the most examples of like, you know, you don't want to think about how these people eat. You don't want to think about how they sleep. You don't want to think about how they go to the bathroom.

[00:52:06] FREY: Yeah. Or do you want to think about them buying something from a, or like ordering something from a store, which it looks like they did with the furniture

[00:52:13] JOSH: yeah. It's like so much of the illusion of these movies work because you're not asking the wrong questions, you're not thinking too much about it. You're just going with it. You assume that it works somehow. and that's enough.

[00:52:26] FREY: Yeah. They have a system that's like a little bit different than our, like, I don't know what that is, but like, I don't think it involves them, like ordering things from a website or like a catalog or something.

[00:52:36] JOSH: yeah. Um, so we talked about the love story. We talked about the noir vibe, but, uh, we didn't talk about the titular clones and like the core of this whole mystery is the creation of these clones. Like What do we think about this plot line? I guess overall,

[00:52:52] RUSS: I'll say this, I'll say this, when Yoda says, uh, uh, the clone War has begun, I'm like, uh, It's like saying, saying the movie's title, uh, in the movie, uh, Yoda does it in this one. . You know,

[00:53:05] JOSH: Except it's not even the movie's

[00:53:07] RUSS: it's close enough. It's close enough. It's like, oh yeah, we, we get it. The Cologne wars, like they're happening now.

It's, it's a war

with

[00:53:14] FREY: calling up right now. That's a name. We're sticking to that.

[00:53:17] RUSS: Does that, does that infer that that, uh, that droids are all clones If it's a war between clones, is it, is it some sort of like meta meta narrative on droids as well?

[00:53:28] JOSH: I mean, yeah. I think all droids are like a kind of clone, yeah.

[00:53:33] RUSS: I, I think Camino looks really cool. I will say that. So those creatures, which I also felt were very non Star Wars at first, um, I just think they're different also. They're like outer rim, I think they say. So I kind of accept like, yeah, they're, they're definitely, they're out there.

Um, they kind of remind me of, um, uh, Steven Spielberg's ai. , right on on those aliens. Yeah. A little, little, little bit of that.

[00:53:54] JOSH: I don't think that those are, that those are aliens in ai. I think that they're like robots.

[00:53:59] RUSS: robot aliens but it's, it's a long elongated thing and like, maybe even the speech pattern. I haven't seen AI in forever. Um, but I like how clean it is and, and it kind of, um, the medical sterility of it. Um, and it, you know, it's a post Matrixx world already, so like we've already seen humans grown in vats in like, kind of like robot, like spot like tower type things.

Um, but I thought it, I thought it worked for me, like it was, and, and the fact that OP one's walking in and said, Hey, has no idea what he is, what is going on, he's kind of faking his way through. And I feel like we've all been in the situations we're like, I have no idea what's going on, but I have to pretend that I know what's going on.

And, and watching kind of play in that space is very interesting cuz uh, he also has no idea. So the mystery is shared, uh, with Obi-Wan and we kind of identify with him. I'm like, I'm enjoying watching him. Uh, like, be confused. And I just felt like, yeah, that's, that that works for me to connect with the

[00:54:50] FREY: a good point. I do think, yeah, I think it does a, the ones fit, like best aesthetically with overall of like the prequels and like this movie in particular, like, I think that I feel like Camino is like when that most works, like the way this movie looks overall and uh, Yeah. And I think it does, it does work. They look a little bit different than everybody else because they're, they're isolated. So it makes sense. It would be this race that looks a little bit different than anything else you've ever seen, like in this universe.

[00:55:14] JOSH: So one thing that I think we forget now, uh, but at the time, it was, kind of a cool twist that the clones of the title are actually the good guys, but they're actually the bad guys because they look like stormtroopers. So, you sort of see the seeds of, the future are being plant.

[00:55:36] RUSS: You just reminded me as well, uh, that, uh, the, um, the Ians um, they have these kind of like head fins and you actually see Afin a center fin on the Stormtrooper, uh, helmet. Uh, so, so that they're actually kind of transposing their own aesthetic principles onto this like warrior uh, armor. And I thought that was interesting cause I didn't notice that until this watch.

I'm like, oh, they're, they're kind

of getting their, their style out there like, yeah.

[00:56:02] FREY: don't know if it's, it says it in this movie, but I was like looking at their Wikipedia page at one point and like apparently they reached like maturity by age 11, which is also basically what they imparted on the clones.

So, yeah, it is

[00:56:14] JOSH: really? The Camino wins, they reach maturity by 11. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. like, I mean, it makes sense if you think about it. It's like if you're growing clones, the faster they can be ready, the better. one thing that I think, um, really hit me differently on this view in, 2023 is, um, you know, going back to that scene in the diner, where, Dexter is helping identify the origins of the dart that Obi-Wan has.

And that's what sends him off to No Togo to Camino. And, um, there's a deleted scene where, the reason that Obi-Wan goes, to Dex in the first place is because he went to, the analysis Droids and the Jedi archives and they didn't know what it was. And, you know, there's this whole idea running through this movie and through all the movies actually about, how, like clones are superior to droids cuz they have minds and they can think.

And I think Obi-Wan has a line, he's like, you, if droids could think, none of us would be here, would we? And it's just interesting, with all the discourse going on right now with like, AI and artificial intelligence , I'm not sure that that line really holds up in 2023.

I mean, I hope it does. this whole idea that clones think creatively so they're superior to droids, which like, rely on like centralized, instruction.

[00:57:30] FREY: Data, data

[00:57:32] JOSH: or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Okay. There you go. Centralized dataset. Uh, that sounds, better than what I was gonna say.

Um, I don't know. What do you think about that? Like, this whole idea is like, the reason why we need clones is because they are superior in terms of creative thinking and problem solving than droids and machines. I mean, that's like what a lot of the plot of this movie hinges on.

[00:57:55] RUSS: I think it might be cheaper to grow clones than, um, to harvest, uh, raw material, metals to make, uh, droids possibly. May, it's like, yeah, just growing it and giving it some, like some grue juice and a tube. Like maybe it's, maybe it, it's a, a more cost effective and the idea that the creative element of, um, the brain is just kind of like, eh, sure.

Why not? Uh, it might just be a cost maneuver, I think. I don't know.

[00:58:20] JOSH: No, but that's not what the movie is saying though. Like, the movie is explicitly saying that, like

[00:58:25] RUSS: I know the movie. Say I, I just think that's crazy. Uh, I, I don't know.

[00:58:30] JOSH: no, I mean, I'm asking you about that idea.

[00:58:32] RUSS: I, I, I guess I just dismiss, I dismiss the idea that like, clones are a good idea for like mass warfare. Like I never, I, I just, I see it being problematic, but I guess they, they've changed the brain chemistry, uh, enough where, uh, they're more, they're more, uh, like submissive in certain ways.

Uh, like to be, to act as some sort of like a, like a beta, a beta follower. I don't know. I, and I know there's different, like, leadership levels too. In, in, in the

[00:59:04] FREY: So it's weird they're making them more robot like, or ai like ai, like,

um, but then they're like, they're, but they're saying that the benefit is the, uh, benefit of like creative human mind,

[00:59:15] RUSS: but you have to

[00:59:16] FREY: they're theoretically removing that. Like they're, that's, that's not like a clone. The, in the way they're doing it is not like the best way to go about getting a creative mind,

[00:59:25] JOSH: It's true.

[00:59:26] RUSS: Well, well, I mean, look, I mean, I feel like R two D two had a lot of creative ideas in his, in his, uh, in, on his missions. Like, I don't know, I feel like he was pretty much a free thinking, droid as far as I could tell. So I don't know. I don't

[00:59:38] JOSH: yeah. Well I think those two cases of R two and three PO are like the outlier special cases. I think like the argument would be that so there are a couple things in play here. one reading is that, you know, which I think is support. By the text of the films themselves, is that what everyone says about droids is actually not true.

Like the dirty secret about Droids and Star Wars is that they are sentient and can think, and they're actually like a slave race. And the thing we see again and again is, human, I mean, or I guess like organic life, constantly reiterating over and over about how droids are just machines and they can't think so that they can continue to treat them like shit.

[01:00:18] RUSS: Yeah,

[01:00:18] FREY: Good.

[01:00:19] RUSS: I think that was the, the c plot of Solo.

[01:00:22] JOSH: yeah.

[01:00:22] RUSS: Yeah.

[01:00:23] JOSH: which is, one of my

favorite parts of solo.

[01:00:26] FREY: kinda gets there at one point. Was it the Boba Show? I feel like they kind of get into that.

[01:00:30] RUSS: I, I blacked out most of that show from my memory, so I, I, I couldn't tell you

[01:00:35] JOSH: . Well, no, I mean, I just think it's an interesting thing that's like, you know, you don't really think of Star Wars as you know, talking about the nature life and sentience and the nature of intelligence and all that. But that's really central

[01:00:47] RUSS: it's, it's what it's all about. I mean, the Force, the, the, the binding and uh, and then the joy is also re restraining bolts. They're, they're actually, they have inhibitors put on them, so it's like, why would you need to inhibit them if they are doing what they're supposed to be? You know, it's like, there, there's something else there.

It's, it's really like under the surface, and I, I think that's, yeah, that's some old Star Wars. That's some good stuff right there.

[01:01:09] JOSH: So, well, it's really interesting too because like, so they're making these droids and they're pretending that they are, you know, not as alive as they seem to be. with the clones, they're trying to make them more like robot-like.

[01:01:24] FREY: Right.

[01:01:25] JOSH: I have to imagine that there's something along the lines, like some economic, reason, like you were alluding to Russ, like why creating clones is like more favorable than like, I mean, like you were saying, the, you know, mining the raw materials and creating all the droids, , because like you're really asking for, it's like, think about the discourse, about ai, artificial intelligence, like the nascent version of it, that, we're experiencing right now and all of the moral, questions that arises.

but like when you create a whole, race of, people for the explicit purpose of fighting and dying in war, like that seems like a much thornier moral can of worms that you've opened up for yourself.

[01:02:08] RUSS: that, well, that's, that's Blade Runner, that's the replicas there built for, for o off world mining and for, for battle. It's like, it's like, yeah, th this could get potentially go there. But I was thinking too though, they're feeding all those Boba FETs, you know? and they're all, they're all Camino, they're all eating.

They're in like the cafeteria. That's not cheap. Like, uh, they're probably eating a lot. But, but I was thinking about this, like, if you, if you bro blow a droid's leg off, like it could still crawl around and stuff. I think it's the, like the human like determination, like will to survive that would give you an advantage in the field of war.

, like if you were to shoot at them, it's like, uh, like the teamwork, I think the teamwork aspects more so than with droids. Um, I, I think there's a certain component of, of, of that kind of humanity that would give them an advantage, that would make it worthwhile feeding them all and, and growing them in the first place

[01:02:56] FREY: But how much is that there with their like genetically engineered brains, like,

I guess that's there. Yeah.

[01:03:03] RUSS: Yeah. I, I, I

couldn't tell you

[01:03:05] JOSH: you know what you just made me realize they're probably eating on Camino is fish.

[01:03:09] RUSS: all f it's all fish all time and it's, and it's, it's probably, yeah, it's all sushi and probably some sort of like,

[01:03:15] JOSH: Real good Sushi on Camino. That's another tip that he got from Dexter. Uh, while you're on Camino, you should, You should get some sushi while you're on Camino. It's really fresh.

Um,

[01:03:25] RUSS: It's all. But you know what also bums me out? The fact that we've had Mont Kamari in, in Star Wars, we have all the A bars and we never, like, they didn't wanna do it for Phantom Mees. We never got to really see them. I know people are like, that must be delicious. But, but there's like, you're on Camino and like, what's under there?

There's gotta be wild like creatures under the water too. So, uh, and we never get to, they never explore. The ones they've already established are water-based, , creatures. And it kind of bums me out. but Camino itself is really cool and, and a fight in the rain also. I, I wanna mention, uh, you know, j

[01:03:56] JOSH: Yeah, that's a cool fight sequence. That's a cool fight sequence like that, that actually has a physicality that I think, you know, you don't really get a lot in Star Wars. Like at one point, you know, they go hand to hand and I think that's pretty cool. It's like, it's pretty cool to see like, a Jedi and a Mandalorian, duking it out into the rain.

I think that's, I think that's a pretty successful.

[01:04:16] RUSS: Let me ask you this though. Uh, it's established that Bess car later on in, in current iterations of the Star Wars, can deflect like a lightsaber blade or a blaster. , but I don't think that that concept existed in Attack of the Clones. I don't think he used like his gauntlets or his armor to deflect, um, a lightsaber potentially, or, or, or blasts.

So, uh, cause like Mandalorian would be perfectly equipped to battle a Jedi wearing the most defensive armor to stop any of their attacks. So, but it also shows that opioid one, as powerful as he might be, is not really super power. He's not like, you know, pulling things and throwing them. I feel like Jedi, like are easily beaten in this, in this film, like in, in the in Battle, uh, it just shows that they're kind of, not the most amazing warrior that I would've assumed that they'd be like, unbeatable.

Like you have a, you have a, a, a, a foul length of, uh, of Jedi. Like you can't beat that, and they almost get beat. So I know.

[01:05:10] JOSH: Well, well, I think what happens is like, the thing with the droids, and I mean arguably this happens a couple of times. you know, it's just sheer numbers. It's like, Jedi can be overwhelmed if you just like throw hundreds and hundreds and thousands and thousands of droids at them. I mean, like, you know, which is true.

And arguably, the same thing happens in the next movie.

[01:05:28] FREY: it's base window. What's, um, maybe we're er the line you say like, we're not warriors, we're

[01:05:33] JOSH: yeah, we're, keepers of the peace not

[01:05:35] FREY: Right. Soldiers. Yeah.

[01:05:37] JOSH: yeah, I mean, I don't know, like does this idea come off or is it like more of an intellectual idea? you know, the Jedi can't fight because they're not an army. can't use droids cuz they're susceptible to, so, I mean, in the first movie, so I should give George Lucas credit, the first movie makes the case for why droids are ineffective.

because all you have to do is blow up the control ship and then they all shut off. so I think you know, having successfully demonstrated the weakness, that creates the justification for, for clones. Um, what do we think about?

I'm a little confused about like, so this whole thing is that somebody secretly ordered the clone Army 10 years earlier, which just so happens, to be the amount of time that has passed between Episode One and Episode Two. So are we supposed to infer that? Darius's plan to, I don't really know what his, his plan was actually, but like his plans were foiled or they weren't foiled.

In Episode One, his ultimate long game was to create this war, under false pretenses in order to establish his power. So he, he ordered the clone army secretly.

[01:06:49] RUSS: That was my assumption. He, he ordered, he preemptively ordered the Army to be ready for when he would need, um, a force to go up against the Trade Federation armies, uh, yeah, exactly. To, to allow, um, emergency War powers act, uh, to give him, you know, full, full

control.

[01:07:06] FREY: I think when it says Show Tales of the Jedi. Um, did you watch any of that?

[01:07:11] JOSH: I did not.

[01:07:12] RUSS: Yeah.

[01:07:12] FREY: there is, I haven't seen it either, but there's apparently that specif specifically that are, are answered in the episode of that show. And it's like Koku is the one that orders it obviously through like under, but specifically he's like, technically he's the one that ordered, ordered, uh,

[01:07:28] JOSH: yeah. Well, so I know what really happened. So, they say Jedi Master Sifo Diaz right, is the one who ordered the clone Army. And then they say in the movie, he died, 10 years ago. So, It either wasn't him or it like was him, but he's conveniently dead. So like, who's it really for Originally, the clones were to have been ordered from, side Odis.

Right. Which is clearly Darth Citius. but then they realized that that's maybe too on the nose. but they had to come up with a name that they could ADR to fit in the mouth that was saying CTO Diaz. So they said Sifo Diaz,

[01:08:05] FREY: Wow.

[01:08:07] JOSH: which seems like a, it's like, I don't know, it's like, I would almost rather it happen, uh, cyto Diaz because, well, I'm sure there is an explanation in some of the expanded universe media. It's like, I really feel like it's gotta make sense in the context of the movie itself.

and

that's sort of like,

[01:08:23] FREY: the, this, the thing that was in that episode was gonna be addressed in Revenge originally. And, uh, Lucas decided that, that was extraneous to what was going on and decided to leave that a mystery until this episode came along.

[01:08:35] JOSH: yeah. so it's sort of weird. It's like, the other thing that's a little unclear to me is exactly why the Separatists are a thing. Like why are people leaving? Why are star systems leaving the Republic? Like, what is their whole, like what is this conflict about that city is creating? It's like, I don't really,

[01:08:55] FREY: it's like a weird meta thing going on, right? Because like, it's supposed to be, the reason that they're leaving is because according to Koku isn't like, it's because the dark side is taking over the Senate, but like, he's the one that's like kind of

actually like, uh, embroiled to the dark side, but like he's got

[01:09:11] JOSH: yeah. Well, that's another level of it also. because like at some point, so, so, that scene, , which is a good scene I think, uh, between, Dooku and Obi-Wan, , where he's interrogating him, , Dooku played by, the incredible Christopher Lee who, um, you know, he has this really great scene that I think is supposed to mirror the scene in Empire Strikes Back where, Vader asked Luke, to join him and together they can overthrow the emperor. Duke basically tells Obi-Wan exactly what's going on. He tells him the truth. you know what if I told you the Republic was under the control of a dark Lord of the Sith, his name is Darious and he's controlling everything. He's, he's orchestrating this entire thing. And Obi-Wan's like, no, I don't believe you.

My question is, what is Dooku actually doing there? Like, do you think that's a genuine,

[01:09:57] FREY: Yeah, I feel

[01:09:58] JOSH: a genuine offer he's making him

[01:10:00] FREY: yeah,

[01:10:00] RUSS: I think because we don't know Dooku well enough, uh, it's really, it is hard to say, like when you watch it the first time, like why, why would you just tell him that? But I think,

[01:10:09] FREY: I feel like he's just been duped, like, and he thinks he is like, kind of in some ways, like earnest in like what he is trying to do.

[01:10:16] RUSS: well, I think he believes that he can get on. I think he believes that he might actually go with him for whatever reason. Maybe his own ego, I don't know.

[01:10:23] JOSH: , well I think because, you know, I think you're right. I think he is genuine in that moment, which like makes the later villain a little bit harder to take but yeah, I mean, the reason why I think, we're supposed to kind of be like maybe this Koku guy is. , like maybe there's more to him than meets the eye.

It's like, on the one hand, like we know what he's saying is true, and on the other hand, they do this shortcut of making him quan's former master. So we're like, oh, okay. Like, we liked Quan and this was Quan's teacher. So it's, it's sort of like a shortcut to familiarity. I feel like, you know, if you were a novelist and you were writing this, once you got into Episode Two, you created Count Dooku, you would go back and revise Episode One and have Dooku be on the Jedi Council.

So you would have a connection and understand the significance. Like, the idea that Kaku was once a Jedi and that he left the order is clearly a big deal to the other Jedi in this movie, but not to the audience. So I think by giving him that connection to Kgon, that sort of the like way to kind of, to kind of paper over that.

but I'm not sure that it works. What do you.

[01:11:37] RUSS: No.

[01:11:37] FREY: feel like it. D vaguely. I don't know. I like it in a vague way. And I don't know if it, like, when he kind of doesn't like really hold up the scrutiny maybe, but like, it kind of mirrors away. I think like a lot of like modern politics work where, there's like a lot of pitting against, to create the chaos.

Like, and I think that's kind of what city of his is doing with Dooku. Like, I don't know if he realizes that like he, that he is, like really like super, super on the dark side, , like,

[01:12:03] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:12:03] FREY: and he and you think that that, He's actually trying to combat corruption,

[01:12:07] JOSH: Yeah. Well, so, and again, I haven't read any of the ancillary media, so, so I'm sure that, you know, what we're hitting upon here is probably, if I were to guess where they go with the character is like, he's sort of this like tragic figure who, like, who turns to the dork side? The dork side, who turns to the dark side, but, um, But like, not, not all the way he's like, you know, 75% of the way, , where like the motivation for doing so is, is to actually, you know, join them to fight them or whatever.

[01:12:38] FREY: Yeah.

[01:12:39] JOSH: know, maybe potentially the,

[01:12:40] FREY: In his mind, do you think he calls it the Dooku side?

[01:12:46] JOSH: I, I hope he does. Um, so, but in terms of the separatists themselves, I think their motivation is, well, I think there are several motivations that are, are offered by the movie, one of which is this like vague notion of corruption of the Senate, which, like, I don't quite know what that actually translates to in terms of like what that actually is or what that actually means effectively.

Um, but in that meeting that Dooku has with the leaders of the separatists, they all seem to be like the titans of industry or whatever. which include the newt gun rays from the trade federation from Episode One. So what I actually think it is, I think it's like the private corporations of the galaxy that are sick of having to follow the laws and rules of the republic, the bureaucracy who just basically wanna be free to, make as much money however they want to make it without having to follow quote unquote rules.

[01:13:43] RUSS: Taxes. Taxes.

[01:13:45] FREY: I don't think that's what

Dookus.

[01:13:46] RUSS: it's

the taxes. It's like, we don't wanna pay this.

[01:13:50] FREY: But I think I, doco probably has a different idea in mine, but that's like actually what's happening.

[01:13:54] JOSH: Right.

[01:13:55] FREY: like all the, I think all this chaos is like part of the point. Like all the,

[01:13:58] JOSH: yeah. Right, Right, So, Dooku, so if we buy his motivation as genuine, he's using the separatist leaders like the banking clan guy and the techno union guy. It's like he's using their money and their resources and their droid army, to kind of fight the republic that he knows is under the control of a dark Lord of the sis.

So he's using them, not realizing he himself is being used.

[01:14:25] RUSS: Yeah,

[01:14:25] JOSH: sort of what's going on here? Yeah.

[01:14:27] RUSS: a lot. A big.

[01:14:28] JOSH: So, so clearly that stuff is there cuz we were just able to, to tease that out. but I have to ask, and I kind of said the same thing on the Phantom pod. It's like, is like, is that clear enough or was I just too young to understand that that's what was going on?

I'm not sure it, it like really comes off in the movie, but then once he watch it, it's like, oh, he says, the guy literally says, I'm a banker. And like the other guy, he's like, I'm the factory owner. I mean, basically is what they're saying. So it's like, I don't know how much more

[01:15:00] FREY: It's like a, like a

[01:15:00] JOSH: it.

[01:15:01] FREY: cartoon.

[01:15:02] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:15:03] FREY: I think like it's not clear enough in the sense that like, that's the idea that I vaguely got, but I like was trying to figure it out kinda like we're doing now. And I didn't even really get to like a concrete answer if I'm like, wait, do I, do I have that right?

Like, do I, I just don't understand if I, like, that's kind of the, uh, general idea that I got from it. But like I wasn't clear enough that I was assured that I was right about it . So maybe it isn't clear enough.

[01:15:28] RUSS: You know what I am clear about though, when Dooku hops on that little speeder and it looks ridiculous, flying through the desert air without a, without a a face mask, like all that air rushing it, I, I dunno, he just, he looks so, so static on that thing. I'm like, oh, that

[01:15:42] FREY: Yeah. I like how he just moves across like downward on the screen.

[01:15:45] RUSS: And this like drops. Yeah, it's almost like there, there's no force shortening your perspective.

It's just, but yeah, I think, I, I, I do, to go back, I do agree if, if we knew more about Dooku, if he, I really think he had to be on that council because his turn would actually have weight. And therefore the only thing that's a little strange is asking to join him. It's a little bit strange because you don't know enough about Dooku to know where he actually stands.

You don't know enough of his background. You don't know his, his, his loyalties. And so it really doesn't work. Vader, you know, in Empire you start to, there, there's just some push pulls. Like no, there's good in you that there's, there's a chance that no, he could turn Vader and that together. They, they could take on the emperor that you could believe because there's enough established, but Dooku doesn't work for it.

It's too forced. And I, I didn't care.

[01:16:31] JOSH: Yeah, but I don't think any of that stuff is established though at that point. Like when, when Vader says it, you're like, whoa, like whoa. It's like, why is he saying this? And then the revelation that he's actually Luke's father, it's like, oh, well that makes sense.

[01:16:44] RUSS: but, uh, at, at the time when he says it. Yeah. I, I agree. But I still, there's still more investment in the character for that, for me to even go with it. Yeah. And, and Dooku is still too fresh. Although Christopher Lee does play someone I would listen to, he was like, all right, this, uh, that's threatening. Yeah.

[01:17:01] JOSH: that's another reason why he cast Christopher Lee. I think, you know, you get someone with the gravitas who like, you know, like, replacing Darth Mall, who was, I think, one of the more successful aspects of The Phantom Menace. clearly an iconic design. how do you top Darth Mall?

I think he did something really smart. He, he casts a really good actor who you can't take your eyes off of. Instead, he didn't try to like, make the new Darth Mall. He was like, no, I'm just, I'm just gonna get fucking Dracula to do it.

[01:17:36] RUSS: It's funny too, cause I think, uh, in the Lord of the Rings as, um, as Saruman, uh, he imprisoned, uh, gandolph on the top of the tower much in the same way. Like, I think about, uh, Obi-Wan floating around, like not being able to move. Like he ha like in that wizard battle, he's like suspended. Uh, Gandalf is so, like, so he's done this in two, like a Space Wizard movie and then a Middle Earth Wizard movie.

Like it's, it is like classic, uh, Christopher Lee. He's just like, Hey, we need you to suspend, uh, a hero in with magic

[01:18:05] FREY: we got a suspension for you. He's like, done. I'm.

[01:18:10] RUSS: in a rock tower.

[01:18:12] JOSH: Well, that's actually an interesting point. He plays very similar characters in both these movies. Do you think, I mean I don't know this, but do you think that casting was just coincidental? Or do you think that it had something to do with knowing that he, , had been cast as Saron and Lord of the Rings?

I mean, similar with like the design similarities that you were, pointing out, respite, the Matrix. It's like, it's like, it's sort of inescapable. Like the connections are so strong.

[01:18:38] FREY: Um, I, maybe it just has to do with, Christopher Lee just kind of like what he can pull off,

um, by being like, like by being like, cuz he's not like a big bad in either case, but he's like, just kind of

[01:18:52] JOSH: He's like a compromised man. He's

like a, he's like, he's like

not quite

good enough.

[01:19:00] FREY: probably need a good actor for like

[01:19:03] RUSS: A a very tall, good actor. Yeah.

[01:19:05] FREY: Yeah.

[01:19:06] JOSH: you know, it kind of makes me sad because the scene between you and McGregor and Christopher Lee is like, is like one of the better scenes in the movie. It's two really good actors who were playing a scene together and it's like, you almost wish that there was more

of that

[01:19:19] FREY: I love when he is like, like, well, you know, soon he is like, well it better be sued

[01:19:23] RUSS: Well, Well,

[01:19:24] JOSH: have work to do.

[01:19:25] RUSS: that actually reminds me, I wanna bring up that, um, like, uh, I, I didn't ever say his name right, but Ian Mc. Ian Mc, DeArmond d DeArmond, Ian Mc,

McDermid,

Uh,

[01:19:35] JOSH: I think. Yeah.

[01:19:36] RUSS: he is so captivating to watch, speak, to watch, sit in a room, to talk to a room with people in a green screen. It doesn't matter like he elevates.

every scene he is in, uh, it, he is so good and, and like projects so much in even the, the smallest bits of dialogue. Uh, I'm just like, he's carrying so much of it for me. Um, even McGregor, uh, Ian McNevin, uh, like they're, they're for me, they're doing so much heavy lifting. Christopher Lee in this, um, they're really like, well, in this watch.

I'm like, he's so good. He's excellent. Like, I'm just like, I like more of him. I wanted more scenes with him and Ankin. I wanted to see that relationship. You know, I believe that there's something, there's, there, there were sparks of it. And like, he's like, you know, he's telling him, he is like, you could be the greatest Jedi that ever.

Like, it's just, it's amazing. Like that to me is, is why like those moments are what I, what I love about, uh, this movie now that I guess I didn't appreciate enough at the time.

[01:20:37] JOSH: No, I mean, Ian McDermott is, is definitely, you know, an unsung hero of this whole, of this whole trilogy. Like we overlook it because he is so good and he makes it look so easy. but like he's, he's, he's really. He makes this character work. And you know, it's a tricky character because he's kind of playing two characters and you know, one of them is like a very two-dimensional, you know, what you see is what you get, kind of scenery, chewing, villain, um, who's like, you know, motivation is kind of amorphous beyond like unlimited power.

um, like he really, he sells it. He, he sells every scene he's in. Which, leads me to a question that I just thought of. What, this is something that has crossed my mind before. Um, should Anakin have a British accent? And if he did, would that have sold some of the dialogue more?

[01:21:30] FREY: Yeah, probably would've. Yeah. No, I think I would've, because I think that's like, yeah, because I, that's why I don't think, what, especially once you get rid of like all the whiny stuff like that hitting Kris's performance is that bad. Because I think, cuz that's like, what I feel like that's they're going for is it's just this kind of like stiff upper lip, kind of like stoic, um, somebody who would speak like in a wooden way.

Like that's, even when he's like, like grappling with his emotions,

[01:21:57] JOSH: Yeah, I mean, there's just something really, I think objectively, like, I don't think it's the vantage point of an American who speaks with an American accent, who like inherently, thinks like a British accent is like something serious and exotic. But it's sort of like there is something to the sound of when dialogue is spoken with an accent, with a British accent that sounds more, you know, commanding.

Like you just, I think you would buy the dialogue that doesn't sound natural when it's, said with like an American, like neutral accent or whatever, like a, I mean, or a Canadian accent. In this case, I guess in the case of any Christensen, I think it would work a lot better.

Like even as written, like he could say some of those same lines and I think it would work better.

[01:22:40] FREY: Yeah. And I don't, I just kind of feel, even though he is like not royalty or like a royal character, like, he's like supposed to be almost like the opposite of that. Like, because he is a Jedi, like, and he has like all these scenes with padme, like I just, it to me seems like kind of like a royal love story.

[01:22:56] JOSH: Yeah.

Um, . What do we think of the arena battle, the end, I mean, or like the whole action sequence at the end, like with the arena and all the Jedi, and then like all the clone war stuff when all hell breaks loose.

[01:23:07] RUSS: One of the best lines in the film, uh, Obi-Wan's good job. You know, like, uh, we're here to rescue you. Uh, I thought that was a defining moment of the entire film was like, that is the best delivery, the whole film maybe for like a shortest line. Um, so that I loved,

[01:23:24] JOSH: Yeah, that's a great moment for sure.

[01:23:26] RUSS: um, you know, I think everyone, everyone would probably agree.

Like even seeing it for the first time. I think that's about the only thing maybe I remember about my experience was being excited to see an entire, um, screen of Jedi fighting together at the same time. Cause no one ever seen it. It was the big talked about point. Like no one's ever seen Jedi in their prime fighting together.

And it's like, all right, well this, it's pretty cool, I guess. Yeah, right. , you know, it's, it was, I guess this's as good as we're gonna get. I do love though, um, uh, Samuel Jackson's Mace Wind introduction into that sequence in the, in the HAL 9000 cut in particular. Uh, it's. Very much one of the best like entrances in the, in any of the Star Wars movies and great first characters.

So I just kind of, uh, hello with a lightsaber ignition. So I don't know. That's, um, that was good. Overall, I think the CG works for me in that sequence because of the dust. So I have this thing I call the Jumanji effect. It's not the first time it happened, it happened in, uh, Jurassic Park. Uh, when we get the stampede of dinosaurs, for whatever reason, the CG contrast doesn't match the film contrast, and it's really noticeable in, uh, non, in like human manmade, uh, environment.

So, uh, the monkeys in the house in Jumanji really stand out and the contrast doesn't work or the rhino in the street. Uh, and then, uh, in gen it actually works because there's so much dust and natural light that the low contrast actually is okay for me. And I think the C g I looks the best here than it does in the rest of the film.

And it can, riding that, that weird animal on net nebu that looks look terrible, this, this sequence looks good and dusty and it works for me. So overall, I generally like the look of it and I think the action plays out. All right. The chariot

[01:25:08] FREY: And also I, this is like some of the creature designs I was alluding to before that I like, cuz it's like really like this weird expression that's like, they have these like, these like nightmare creatures with like giant like, uh, like teeth that like this time I'm like, that's pretty insane looking. Like

[01:25:24] RUSS: Especially for

then.

Yeah.

[01:25:26] FREY: like that would be terrifying to be in, in there with these things.

yeah, I like those

[01:25:30] RUSS: it's kinda like a, like a take on, on like, like on the rankor face, but like in like a full body where they can now add more movement. Like they couldn't have done with the rankor. And I thought, I thought, yeah, this is, this is pretty cool. Like they're, you know, they're fighting monsters. They're fighting those, uh, those little, what, what are they like, kinda like wato, like what are, what are those things?

Little bug guys?

[01:25:49] FREY: Oh yeah. They're like, yeah, they're wado. They're like Wado soldiers.

[01:25:55] JOSH: the G oceans? Like the insect

guys?

[01:25:57] RUSS: yeah.

[01:25:58] JOSH: What are those like globular, projectile, sonic blaster things that they shoot them

[01:26:03] RUSS: Just, just give 'em lasers. Just give 'em, everyone, give everyone laser guns. I don't know what we're doing here.

[01:26:09] FREY: we all do lasers here.

[01:26:11] RUSS: This is a laser show. Thank you very much.

[01:26:14] JOSH: Oh. What do you think about? there was a thing in, um, the asteroid chase, uh, with that, like, sonic mind thing. Which I think is a weird idea for space because like, you know, one of the things about space is that there is no sound in space because there's no medium for the sound waves to travel through.

So like a sound-based weapon in space is like the one place where that could never work.

[01:26:35] RUSS: Well, yeah, yeah. Without the

air mo, without the air molecules, all you really have is like, um, radio waves that can be transmitted. That's it.

[01:26:44] JOSH: yeah, I mean there's like no medium, to, conduct the, like, sonic ness of it.

[01:26:49] RUSS: now, now is this also mirroring empire with the, with the asteroid field? Like, are, are we doing this again? Like, like is this another mirroring, uh, situation?

[01:26:59] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, I don't know, like, I don't know how much of the mirroring is intentional. Some of it is certainly, um, um, the extent to which, you know, you have another asteroid field chasing, being chased, by the same ship with a similar character, a similarly dressed character. And, and Obi-Wan does the same maneuver where he loses him, uh, by hiding behind the

[01:27:27] FREY: that I think that wasn't potential because I read somewhere that George Lucas like that provides back that, that explains how Boba knows, uh, to look for that and Empire strikes back cuz he is all that already.

[01:27:39] RUSS: that's, that's, that's, so wild to me. that level. I, all right. , if you say so.

[01:27:51] FREY: I was, uh, reminded when we were talking about the CG creatures before the wado, the scene with Wado. Like I feel like that at least up to that point was like the best performance of a CGI I character because I feel like Wado is so sad in that scene. when he is like recognizes like Yeah, it's just like a saddled man, men

Like it almost brings a tear to my eye.

[01:28:17] JOSH: Um, so yeah, so we didn't talk about that. when Anakin goes back to Tatoo to save his mother and fails, and then slaughters an entire tribe of like cinch people, like what do we think about, what do we think about, um, uh, I mean, there's a lot to tease out there, but, so, um, what do we think about the whole thing about his mother having to save his mother?

and then his reaction to it.

[01:28:38] FREY: I always wondered it would be better if he found her just dead already. Like um, and he didn't even have the, he even have that final moment with her and like maybe that would, he would understand a little bit more like what he is doing and also just kind of understand his overall, like he's just becoming more and more pessimistic in general.

Like cuz that is at least something that he got to see his mother last one last time. I guess he doesn't, chooses not to like, see it that way, but,

[01:29:04] JOSH: I mean, could you do it though, where the mother was already dead? Because then like the, the trip is sort of anti-climactic. It's sort of like, then what happens there? It's

[01:29:13] FREY: Yeah. I mean, it would just be a very, I guess that's not a very Star Wars moment, but it would be a very bleak moment. , like, he would just kind of like, I don't know. Like he would, I don't know, maybe you would see her lifeless body from behind or something, but like,

[01:29:25] JOSH: so you're saying like he

would

still

[01:29:27] FREY: a bo, he sees her

[01:29:28] JOSH: Oh, he sees the body.

Oh, okay. Oh, oh, I see what you're

[01:29:31] RUSS: if there was a charred body though, that would actually fit in line with, you know,

the f Yeah. New Hope 77. So it's like that, that would work. But I guess, I don't know. I, I, I do agree. If, if she, if she had already passed and he found her and was too late, to save her and that's the problem.

But if he's too late entirely, I think that'd be worse. I do agree. I think that would be worse for him not having any sense of closure.

[01:29:53] FREY: like, but after all these years, like he does hear body, but it's dead

[01:29:59] RUSS: Yeah.

[01:29:59] JOSH: well, so here's the interesting thing too. Like, like I feel like, you know, what was stopping him this whole time from going back there sooner? Like, I don't understand. right. So, you know, what's interesting is that he doesn't really blame. The Jedi for that.

[01:30:14] RUSS: It's

a cult

[01:30:15] JOSH: It's like you would No, but like I'm saying, it's like, it's like you would think he would be mad that I think clearly we're supposed to infer that like the Jedi have kept him away from visiting his mother this whole time.

Like, I mean, that's a part of the thing about like, no attachments,

da da da, da da. But like you would think when he was just there, if he had only gotten there sooner, you would think that he would express some, more anger against the Jedi, like explicitly for having prevented him from saving his mother, from

seeing his mother, because then

she wouldn't have been.

[01:30:49] RUSS: better

[01:30:49] FREY: that would be very in keeping. Yeah. I mean, and that would be what he would do. Like that's just what he would be, he should be doing cuz like that's who he is.

[01:30:57] JOSH: Yeah.

And I feel like it's there implicitly. and it like plays into his motivation in the next movie, to, prevent history from repeating itself with Padme. Um, though, I mean, it's interesting, like, is it more, potent this way because in this version, he, he really, he blames himself, he.

Really blame the Jedi at all. He blames himself. It's a failing of his. He should have been stronger. He should have been able to do it. He should have been able to save her. Why couldn't I save her? he doesn't say anything about like, I've been wanting to see my mom for years, and the Jedi have always been like, no, no, no, you can't.

And, you know, fuck them. because if I hadn't done what they said earlier, then you probably wouldn't be dead. So I think that that's interesting that he, he turns it into like self-loathing or self-motivation or whatever. uh, I do find it a little strange that the whole reason why he's in this situation is because of Jedi.

And he, uh, he doesn't, give voice to that frustration, I don't think ever. not even in the next movie.

[01:32:00] FREY: Well, if you're being generous, I think it's kind of interesting that like, because up to that point he is like a petulant child and like that is like that when he decides to take ownership and like maybe he's being too hard on himself, but like he takes owner, like he's just like, this is the first time where he is like, this is my fault for, for anything.

Where

like up to then it would be like, Bobbi Wine sucks, like and then like now he's

[01:32:25] JOSH: Yeah, but that's interesting though. So, but that's interesting though, uh, because like the one time where it's actually deserved. he blames himself when that's actually the juvenile response. It's clearly not his fault. He didn't, he didn't.

[01:32:38] FREY: right.

[01:32:39] JOSH: I mean, I don't know. It's interesting. Um, so what do we think about him murdering all of the, the Tuskens there?

That seems a little, uh, seems like a lot.

[01:32:49] FREY: Yeah.

[01:32:51] JOSH: seems like a, seems pretty, seems pretty evil. don't know.

[01:32:57] RUSS: I, I think he says he does like, like every one of like, I think the fact like that he, he goes and makes sure that everyone is dead like it sounds instead of just like, like a rage. Uh, I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's very, um, strategic sounding.

[01:33:14] JOSH: Well, the weirdest part about it is that right after he goes and tells Padme all about it, including what you just said about how it's like, it's like that's what's weird and what's even weirder. What's even weirder is that like the movie seems to think that that's fine

[01:33:29] FREY: yeah, and that like, also like that should be like a horror moment. Like where it's just like, this guy is, this guy's not, well, because like, like he did, like, he spent so much time doing that and now he is like showing some kind of like, regret over it. But like, I don't know, like, it's just like a weird

[01:33:45] JOSH: and instead

[01:33:46] FREY: like he wants her, it almost like he, he's like, he wants her to like help him feel better about

[01:33:51] RUSS: He's talking to a humanitarian. I mean like, like of all people like, like she's specifically about saving lives.

[01:33:59] JOSH: Well, what this is obviously trying to be, is an homage to The Searchers. I think that's the inspiration for, , how that whole subplot plays out in how it looks. complete with like the, um, you know, how Cle Lars is sort of, maimed from like, from like trying to go out and find her and, and like the search parties and stuff like that.

Um, and I think similar to how the Phantom Menace is like very accidentally racist by paying homage to movies and tropes from a time that like was racist. I think that this movie's really saying that the Tuscan Raiders are subhuman, so it's okay. It's like it's not real murder. It's like, it's not great.

Like, it's not that bad though, because like, they're not, real people. I mean, they're just weird, mindless space people. It's okay.

[01:34:48] FREY: Right. Yeah. , it's, yeah, it's

[01:34:51] JOSH: Which is a little, uncomfortable. and one of the things I appreciated about, the book of BofI, was how it sort of, rehabbed the image of the Tuscan Raiders from, this idea of like quote unquote savages to, they're actually the indigenous people of this planet.

and like all of these, like humans and aliens and everyone here, like they're the colonizers and, and like we're actually on their planet. And so, like, no wonder they're so mad rating things and stuff. It's because we took over their shit. So, they're clearly an analog for, you know, for American indigenous peoples. And it's even, you know, the parallel is, is stronger with, you know, invoking the searchers. And it's just really weird that this movie is racist in the same way that The Searchers is,

uh, which is,

like weird

[01:35:40] FREY: I'm wondering like, like, uh, did Lucas, whoever, like in their mind it's like, well, because we're depicting somebody falling from grace and going to the dark side, like, but then like you were saying, like this, that's just the way the whole thing is depicted. It's just kinda

like, well, well it was, that wasn't, that was unpleasant, but Well,

[01:36:00] JOSH: No, well, it's also weird then, the fact that he says it to Padme, he tells her what she did. Uh, he tells her what he did, and she, she basically says, Hey, we all make mistakes. Don't be too hard on yourself. It's like, it's like, you know, one of the things that Hal did is he just cuts that scene out,

[01:36:17] FREY: yes, and like, cuz we, we saw, I mean, we'd see it, but we saw this, the beginning of it. Like, we don't need her. Like, she doesn't, he doesn't need to tell her.

[01:36:26] JOSH: Yeah. He doesn't need to tell her. so it actually makes it even more effective and horrifying, because that means he knows what he did is bad and that he shouldn't tell Padme. And then we know what this guy is actually capable of. She

[01:36:39] FREY: And, and nobody does really

like, nobody's, nobody's, nobody's, all what he did.

[01:36:45] JOSH: so, you know, once again,

there's a good version of this movie, there, that exists. I think, you know, the, how 9,000 Cut really makes this movie work, you know, in ways that it really could and should have.

[01:37:00] FREY: yes. Yeah.

[01:37:01] JOSH: um, uh, what do we think about,

[01:37:03] FREY: oh, were you gonna say the, we, the, the factor scene? Is that where you.

[01:37:07] JOSH: Yeah. but, what were you gonna say?

[01:37:09] FREY: Just that how the hell cut also just makes that actually like a really good scene. , or just kind of like a good, like solid action scene. Just, just the pacing of it that it just kind of flies through for and it feels a lot more propulsive.

[01:37:24] JOSH: yeah, no, it feels more propulsive and, you know, mainly what he cuts are the comedy moments from, three po.

[01:37:30] FREY: Yeah. By the way, like that I always, that I'm so confused line. It just feels a little bit like, a little like just in a 2002 like sense, like, uh, that way that like me just casually was like just a little bit transphobic, but like , doesn't it?

[01:37:44] JOSH: Oh, really? You think that's what that

[01:37:46] FREY: Yeah, because like, cuz it's so, it doesn't seem, it doesn't make sense for him to be like, it's just like, I'm so confused.

Like, it seems like a reference to people used to just like, say people like call people like sexually confused if they were, um,

[01:38:00] JOSH: that's interesting. I never,

[01:38:01] FREY: But like, it's like, I don't know, it's just like, it doesn't, to me it doesn't, like the joke doesn't like play any other way. Like, it just like, it's just Why is, why'd you saying I'm so confused?

Like, I know that because he has his head on another, but it's just kind of, there could have been a different line there that would've made more sense. That adds a. So I feel like that is kind of

[01:38:16] RUSS: I ain't got nobody like, like there's

all kinds of like,

[01:38:21] JOSH: Well, so you're hitting on something, not, the transphobia, which is a really interesting reading of that, that I don't know that I ever read

[01:38:28] FREY: It's just like one of those kind of like nineties, like early two thousands, like kind of casual jokes like

[01:38:33] JOSH: Well, I mean, that's certainly interesting. The, um, but more broadly, I think one of the things that doesn't really work at all in the theatrical cut is the romance subplot, but the other thing for my money that really doesn't work at all is the humor.

And I think it's, I think it's on display the most, in the droid factory scene and the, uh, the arena scene, , with like, horrible puns that three PO makes about being quite beside himself.

[01:39:03] RUSS: I, I, I found it, I found it intolerable to when I, when I watched it, uh, when I watched Theatric, it was like, this is, oh my God.

[01:39:12] JOSH: yeah. it's like it goes out of its way to be cringingly, unfunny.

[01:39:17] RUSS: he was,

he

was,

[01:39:18] JOSH: rubbing your nose in it.

[01:39:19] FREY: Yeah,

[01:39:21] JOSH: I would say the humor in this movie, works even less than the humor in The Phantom Menace.

[01:39:28] FREY: Yeah. But also I think part it does, because the one thing that I do that I do, like, I still kind of feel this way, but like, I liked Phantom Menace a little bit more when it, when it came out because, just because, like, I knew that was a bad movie, but like, just because there was like a little more, more sense of like, wonder of like, and like adventure, you know, when they were visiting like the gungan, uh, underwater cities, like, seems like that.

And I feel like,

like dumb humor

kind of

Yeah.

Yeah. And like dumb, the dumb humor modes kind of like fit a little easier into that kind of tone.

[01:40:00] RUSS: It really was a, a film for a younger age, I think, uh, especially based on like, you know, um, uh, young Anakin's age. Like it really was for younger kids in

my opinion.

[01:40:13] FREY: Yeah.

It's kind of like the, the early Harry Potter movies, movies versus the later ones, like,

[01:40:16] RUSS: yeah, yeah.

[01:40:17] FREY: when they're, the, the tone likes, ages with them.

[01:40:21] JOSH: Yeah. Well that's interesting. Uh, you know, read that way because like the prequels are then ostensibly for somebody younger than the audience of the original Star Wars, yet at the same time had to be for an audience that was decades older than the audience of the original Star Wars. So, so it's sort of like, I think you might be onto something there where it's, it's simultaneously trying to be for like really young kids and also for like jaded Gen Xers.

Right. And it's and it's kind of like a, it's, it's an impossible needle to thread

[01:40:54] RUSS: Isn't that what Dr. Who is doing all the time

that that's like, like yeah. Dr. Who is like straddling that all the time doing a better job. I'm sure

[01:41:03] JOSH: yeah, I mean that's

actually kind of a good point. Yeah. It's a good straggler. Uh,

[01:41:07] RUSS: it's four kids, but adults are obsessed with it, you know.

[01:41:11] JOSH: yeah, I mean, it's actually an app comparison. Um, I don't know. It's sort of tricky, like the jokes, it's like, whenever there's like a joke in this movie, it like really pulls me out in a weird way. It's almost like they're just like dropped in from the sky and it's like, oh, you were trying to be funny there. I guess I really, I really wish you hadn't tried

Um,

[01:41:36] RUSS: Yeah,

[01:41:36] FREY: they like all have their, their own like kind of shot set up too. Like it's just like that whole thing was set up just to have these jokes.

[01:41:43] RUSS: and it was so easy to cut that way you could cut 'em right out there. Drop right in, take them right back out.

[01:41:49] JOSH: yeah. Well, I mean, like, that's what's, so it's like here, I have to be honest, like when revisiting the theatrical cut of this movie, which I don't do very frequently, because like I said, I usually watch the how 9,000 version. you know, I'm always like, uh, was it really as bad as I remember? And I'm always. Kind of with a movie right up until those, stupid lines in the Droid factory and the arena from three po It's like, oh God. Like that really is beyond the pale. It's like, I can't, it's like, who thought that was good?

[01:42:21] RUSS: You know what it reminds me of when they're in the droid factory, it reminds me of, um, Nick Arcade, where basically you have these, these,

kids, these kids in like a blue screen room and they just like layer on the computer, uh, the, like the video arcade game on top of that. It's like jump, jump, like push touch.

[01:42:36] FREY: Like a's like looking like off screen, like towards the screen, like looking at himself, like trying to move.

[01:42:44] JOSH: I gotta say though, I have complicated feelings about this movie, because as much as things like that I really have kind of a visceral reaction to, and I do not, like, I can't hate how weird and idiosyncratic this movie is, like there's something charming and like in this day and age, like, admirable. about, you know, making a movie that is just like, so I keep, I keep thinking of this line from, uh, from, from Ghostbusters. Like no human being would make movies like this. It's almost like,

it's, it's almost like, uh, you know, in this weird moment that, we're living in of like, franchise media. whether it's like superhero films or the coming, specter of, AI created entertainment or, uh, you know, whatever that's gonna turn into, it's like, it's like no AI would come up with a movie like this.

[01:43:40] FREY: Yes.

[01:43:40] RUSS: it's pure humanity.

[01:43:42] JOSH: it's, it's pure humanity. Like, no, no studio, no movie made, by committee would, be as idiosyncratic as this movie is.

And I can't, a part of me loves this movie for that. It's like, I can't, not.

[01:43:59] RUSS: It's, it's, it's the great work of the maestro George Lucas, you really, can't, I mean, he's conducting a symphony of specialists and, uh, I can say that I enjoy this film now, particularly the how on a thousand Cut and that I watched it and I, I, I relatively enjoyed myself. I, I don't, I don't have the same, I guess it wasn't a hatred, but, but yeah, I had The Phantom Menace hangover and I couldn't watch this with, with like a clear head.

And I think this actually continued my, my, my, not, not even distaste, but I think it my, my, my contempt for the prequels, uh, into, uh, Revenge of the Sith. And, and with some given time, I could look at it and say like, there's good parts of this. And th there is a movie that has resurfaced out of it, uh, through this, this new edit.

And I think it's, I think it's worth, worth the time. I think it's worth the watching

[01:44:53] FREY: Yeah, I totally agree that and what, what Josh said because like, you know, mean like, I just, I can't help but level like a funky mo movie. Like if it's just like, it's, I feel like anything like that is a gift, like, you know, in its own way. Like

[01:45:05] RUSS: It, it's amazing. Yeah.

[01:45:07] FREY: it's, yeah.

[01:45:09] JOSH: I don't really know what else to say about this movie. It's like, it transcends good and bad in a way. It's like, yes to both of those

[01:45:18] RUSS: it's,

it's both at once. It really is.

[01:45:20] FREY: Yeah.

[01:45:22] RUSS: I, yeah. I, I don't even know what to say about it actually. Let me ask you, uh, what scene did you think I was freeze framing in, in the

[01:45:31] JOSH: Oh, I thought there are like some weird like, thong costumes in

[01:45:35] RUSS: Oh, I totally, I totally, uh, freeze frame there.

[01:45:38] JOSH: Yeah,

[01:45:39] RUSS: When, they first walk in whi, which kind of mirrors the Return of the Jedi, uh, Oola, uh, the dancer type of costume. Like there was like a slight bit of, um, sexuality in Star Wars that was always kind of there. That's been kind of, I guess, lost in the, in the prequel films.

That, that there's just none of

[01:45:57] JOSH: yeah, like, I guess like this is the movie that gets closest to, confronting sexuality

with this. Like really, you know, fumbling Virgin teenager who's who like has a crush,

[01:46:10] RUSS: Virgins.

[01:46:10] JOSH: Padme ver gins?

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. ,

[01:46:14] RUSS: I mean, pat May seems to have, have, you know, she, she has some, she has some stories. Anakin went right from being a kid right into the Jedi Council. He's got a lot of pent up, um, curiosity, , I dunno.

[01:46:26] JOSH: yeah. I guess here's a crass question. Do you think they had sex in this movie?

[01:46:31] FREY: Well, I think the ha cut makes it more clear that they did because like when they go right to the kiss and I think they go right up to the, the after that

to

the

morning when,

[01:46:40] RUSS: the next

morning he, he's out, he's

out stretching

[01:46:42] FREY: like, yeah. He's like, yeah,

[01:46:43] RUSS: Oh, that's, yeah.

Postal stretch.

[01:46:46] FREY: Thero cut, like between that is like when he is having a nightmare and like it looks like he's in bed alone.

[01:46:52] JOSH: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, these movies have a weird relationship with and sexuality. It's like, you know, when it's like clearly a big part of the plot, like, depends on sex, like,

[01:47:06] FREY: Yeah,

[01:47:07] RUSS: Making Jedi babies.

[01:47:08] JOSH: Yeah. Making

[01:47:09] FREY: And the way it's implied in the hell cut is like, I think it just is very in keeping with like sex and Star Wars. Like it was just like they kiss and then there's the next morning and like she comes out with their hair down and she like, is like wearing a robe and he is like standing out there like in full stretch mode.

[01:47:27] JOSH: there's something similar in the Empire Strikes Back. Like you have to assume that like Hanan Lea had sex on the Falcon, right?

I mean, all that time in the asteroid field and that

long trip to Bespin

[01:47:40] RUSS: Oh, yeah. And then, and then, and then they're getting sauced at Bespin.

Bestin.

[01:47:43] FREY: I just, I just got a flash of like what their sex would be like. It would be pretty intense.

[01:47:48] JOSH: okay,

[01:47:50] RUSS: Wait, wait, who? Wait. Who's sex? Uh, Han and Lea. Yeah. A lot of lip lighting. Yeah.

[01:47:56] FREY: Yeah.

[01:47:59] JOSH: A lot of pointing, a lot of like hard fingering. Oh God, it's too late. It's late. Um, uh, do we have any, thoughts that, you guys, wanted to say that haven't said? And if so, uh, what are they? And then we'll move on to closing thoughts.

[01:48:19] FREY: , just like I was looking at some of the, I guess, people that were almost cast as Anakin

[01:48:24] JOSH: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[01:48:26] FREY: Hanks was one that was, uh, like, like, and I, I was trying to look it up, like, and I guess there was something to it, because there was like a post from like 2000 on like, I guess he was like reliable word that like, he was like being considered.

And then there was an art or, uh, interview with him from the time where he didn't say that. He was like, he auditioned, but like he was at the Skywalker Ranch and like kind of fits with the time there. And then like The New York Times also reported that it was supposedly true in 2001. So like, at the time I guess there was like, enough that it sounds like there was, that actually didn't happen, but I just, I can't picture Colin Hanks like, as, as Anakin

[01:49:01] RUSS: When was Orange County?

[01:49:03] FREY: that same year. Well, I came out the same year.

[01:49:05] RUSS: Yeah. Cause I, cause I remember him in that and I can't imagine him playing anything serious or

[01:49:11] FREY: Or like, just doing like those like hanks, like freakouts, like, like

[01:49:15] RUSS: it's a family trait.

[01:49:16] FREY: yeah.

[01:49:17] JOSH: uh, Leonardo DiCaprio was also very seriously considered for, uh, for a long time.

[01:49:23] FREY: right.

[01:49:23] JOSH: A long time. The good money was on him.

[01:49:26] RUSS: Interesting.

[01:49:26] FREY: And then another one was James VanDerBeek. But then like I found a thing where he said that he said it's possible that it was like talked about, but he never auditioned or anything.

So.

[01:49:36] JOSH: yeah, I remember those rumors at the time. Like, what was this freak out at the time? Like, was this like a a specific moment in like, nerd culture and like the turf wars of nerd culture. Like I remember as a high schooler, there was this like pervading sense that like a James VanDerBeek if like a James Vander beak or someone who was like, popular with teeny bupp girls was cast as anakin.

Like it was gonna be like a travesty. And I don't, quite know, it's like kind of hard for me now to, to put myself back in that head space. but like, I mean, that was a real thing. Like there was even, I mean, this is true. There was a cameo that, some of the members from, from NSYNC shot where they were Jedi in the arena battle and they cut it out of the movie, , because of, the backlash from the fans when news of that leaked.

And it's kind of like, what is that? It's like, is that like a nerd, kind of like a gatekeeping thing where it's like you can't

[01:50:35] FREY: Yeah. I, I think so. Yeah.

[01:50:37] JOSH: that's so weird. Isn't that weird?

[01:50:39] FREY: Yeah, it is. But I want to see the foot. Did, can you watch that footage? ? Is that somewhere

[01:50:45] JOSH: don't think you can watch that footage. Like you would have to like raid the archives at Skywalker Ranch, I

[01:50:51] FREY: I mean, it would be ridiculous if they like cut to the shot and then, uh, I feel like there's a 40% chance that this is how it, like, would've been like if they cut to them and like, what are their songs? Like it just like, uh, dropped, like, kind of dropped like, uh, for a second, like in their shot they were kinda dancing like,

[01:51:08] RUSS: Cantina band style

version

of their music.

[01:51:10] JOSH: there's a shot in the movie that, I think a lot of people, conflated the, the news of them shooting the cameo and like, projected it on, to the shot in their minds. But the Two Jedi who throw, new Lightsabers, to Anakin and Obi-Wan, um, a lot of people were like, that's the NSYNC cameo

[01:51:30] FREY: Yeah. Oh, I actually rewound that several times cuz I'm like, why does that guy like, it does look like

[01:51:35] JOSH: y yeah, he just has like a weird like goatee facial hair thing and like sideburns and like,

it's

like, it's sort of like a boy band kind of look.

[01:51:45] FREY: it's like a really bad, like I McGreer like stunned double or something. And he is like

throwing it to

[01:51:50] RUSS: Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm looking through it right now.

[01:51:53] JOSH: But yeah, they're very often, uh, they're erroneously reported as, the NSYNC cameo. And it's not actually, it's not actually them. Um, but they're often mistaken for them. Um, Closing thoughts on this movie, guys? I mean, like I said, I think it transcends,

[01:52:08] FREY: Yes.

[01:52:09] JOSH: transcends good and bad

[01:52:10] FREY: Right. And it's both.

[01:52:12] JOSH: It's both, and neither

[01:52:15] RUSS: I think, I think it could be, it could be fun. I recommend everyone watch the hell, HAL 9000 cut and never revisit the theatrical cut unless you wanna compare them. Uh, just to the HAL 9000. I think it's, it makes it work for me. It ma it that, that a relationship between Anakin and, and May works in this, in the film, uh, his performance being trimmed works.

[01:52:38] FREY: It's 25 minutes shorter, by the way. And like that's including like some added in scenes though. It's

like probably solid half an hour remote.

[01:52:44] RUSS: That's a lot of cringe. That was trimmed. Like, it,

[01:52:47] FREY: But then like a lot of that is just like trimming scenes down. Like there's a lot of, like I said before, when they go into the club, like they, they walk in that's like, like 45 seconds where they kind of amble in and like that, but kind of dialogue doesn't make any sense.

And then they're like looking around, it's like point of view and like you can see like the, like whatever, like foot, kind of like Star Wars football game on the screen.

[01:53:08] RUSS: Yeah. The set dressing isn't good enough to, to like linger there. It like, it wasn't exciting. It wasn't like, Hey, look at the weird creatures here. It's like, look at these like two thousands era like human teenagers dressed up with like wild, like frizzy hair. Like it was not good. Um, I definitely recommend, uh, free framing your way through that sequence to investigate if you have the time.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's really a mixed bag. What it, like some production design is amazing. Some is like non Star Wars. It, it's really, it could be a case study in. in figuring out how to make a Star Wars film look like Star Wars. Um, I think it's, I think it's worth revisiting. I think the fact that it's a Star Wars noir is interesting.

Um, I like, I think the Camino stuff is great. Um, if you want to get into some Boba FET backstory that was never needed. Uh, it's all there. It's, it's, um, and, and some of, yeah, some of the, uh, the space, uh, space flight stuff looks good. You got a solar sale. Um, I do have one, one closing thought that sometimes the score preempts itself too much.

So John Williams brings in the, the Imperial March, which I, I always identified as Darth Vader's theme personally. Um, and he brings it in when they're like loading up the ships at the end when they're, when they're looking off the balcony. And I'm like, ah, I felt that it was outta place. I'm like, you're bringing in a theme that's really not ready to come out yet.

Um, and so I thought that was a little bit of a, a push. So I don't know. All, all those things aside, I think, you know, with washing the How cut, uh, it, it's, it's, it's, yeah, you could do it. Get into it. , you know, pops and popcorn

[01:54:45] JOSH: No. Yeah, you can find the HAL 9,000 cut if you go to original trilogy.com. Uh, the forums there, and if you, I mean, or if you Google it, I'm sure, I'm sure you could find the Hal 9,000 cut, I believe. he's retitled Attack of the Clones, The Gathering Storm.

[01:54:59] RUSS: Nice.

[01:55:01] JOSH: I don't know what title I prefer.

I don't love The Gathering Storm, but I also, I also equally don't love Attack of the Clones, and I don't know, I, I don't know why I don't love Attack of the Clones, because if you think about it, it's not that far off from The Empire Strikes Back,

[01:55:14] RUSS: What about The Gathering Clones, like Clone Party, The Gathering Clones.

[01:55:20] FREY: Send in the Clones.

[01:55:21] JOSH: Clone Gathering.

[01:55:26] FREY: The Clone convention.

[01:55:29] JOSH: Yeah. The Clone Convention at the Coruscant Hilton. Well, yeah, I think we've said a lot about this movie.

[01:55:40] RUSS: Probably too much? Probably too much.

[01:55:44] JOSH: Yeah. if you like what you heard, transcripts of this episode and all our other episodes are available at trashcompod.com, and we are trashcompod across all social media, and we will see you on the next one.