PERSONAL HISTORIES: Watching Star Wars with Josh's sister

[00:00:00] JOSH:

Welcome to Trash Compactor, um, Josh, and today we have two very special guests, my sister Allie.

[00:00:08] ALLIE: Hi.

[00:00:09] JOSH: And my brother-in-law, her husband Shawn.

[00:00:13] SHAWN: Hello.

[00:00:14] JOSH: What spurred this episode initially is, I believe you mentioned once upon a time a while back that you two were marathoning all of the Star Wars movies in chronological order ahead of, I think the premiere of one of the shows. Does that sound right?

[00:00:31] SHAWN: I think it was actually after Mandalorian started. And Allie was looking for context.

[00:00:38] ALLIE: Sort of, well, depends on if you count Boba Fett as Mandalorian or not. It was after Boba Fett. You said, Hey, do you wanna watch a Boba Fett with me? And I was like, I don't know. I know some Star Wars and I don't know, maybe.

And then we started watching it, and I think the second episode really grabbed me. And then I was like kind of hooked. And so then of course, you know, partway through the season, there were many episodes that were just about Mando and Grogu, and then I was like, okay, now I wanna go back and watch Mandalorian.

And you were like, well, it might make more sense if we watch the movies. And I had seen all of the movies except for Phantom Menace.

[00:01:26] JOSH: Oh really?

[00:01:27] ALLIE: Yeah. Like, you know, but not, not in a, like I'm really invested in the lower kind of way, just kind of in passing, if that makes

[00:01:35] JOSH: Right.

[00:01:35] ALLIE: Yeah. So I mean, I'd seen, episodes four, five, and six. In high school. And then at some point a few years ago, I think one of my roommates had, two and three and I was like, sure. Oh, no, no, no. I think we saw Rogue One. I went to see Rogue One loved it, and it was like, now I wanna watch four, five, and six again.

And then was like, okay, this is great. And then I was like, I should probably watch two and three cuz my roommate had them. Or I might have, I might have seen, actually no, I think I saw two and three in the theaters, but I didn't really remember them. Like, I didn't really have like a, the context for them so much.

[00:02:11] JOSH: Yeah. Well that's sort of what I was thinking when I was, putting notes together to do this episode. the impetus was this chronological marathon that you told me about, which I guess sounds like you did it around the time I started this podcast actually. Um, but then I started thinking more about, you know, this podcast has also, is also kind of, in spite of itself or not, has also become something of an exploration of , my personal history with Star Wars.

It's sort of a, you know, going through the Star Wars movies and Star Wars things as I encountered them. And that's kind of intertwined with my own personal history with Star Wars. So, got me thinking about your personal history with Star Wars and how it was different from mine. And I'm just wondering, no, I'm just wondering, um,

[00:02:59] ALLIE: a little bit of an understatement. Yes.

[00:03:02] JOSH: Well, no, I'm just wondering, Allie, what your memories of Star Wars are, how you first encountered Star Wars, if you can recall what those encounters were like when you were a kid.

[00:03:14] ALLIE: I don't remember how I first encountered Star Wars because I feel like it was always a given that it was there because you were so into Star Wars and I, I remember really liking, um, space balls and I remember you telling me and being very frustrated that I didn't get the jokes. So you like, you did not understand at all why I liked baseballs and honestly watching it later, like when I think I watched it when I was like 13 and was like, oh, like I didn't know.

You know, you know when those things, when you watch a movie and all the adult humor goes over, you. So like, there's that, but then also, like, I didn't get, I remember you being like, you don't get why Pizza The Hut is funny. And I was like, no. It's like Pizza Hut. And you're like, no, but you don't, you don't get it.

Um, I remember that very specifically and I just,

[00:04:07] JOSH: I don't remember that.

[00:04:08] ALLIE: I did really like Spaceballs. I don't know. Um, but yeah. And then four, five, and six, I don't, I couldn't tell you the first time I saw them. I remember watching them in high school with friends of mine, but it was like, oh, we're gonna go back and rewatch them.

I don't remember the first time I watched them because I just feel like they were always there.

[00:04:34] JOSH: Yeah. Well you definitely had seen them before you were in high school, cuz I remember

[00:04:37] ALLIE: no, I definitely have, I just that I have a distinct memory of watching them in high school. I don't have any distinct memories before that, but I definitely watched 'em.

[00:04:46] JOSH: Yeah, I have this memory, it is a weird, a weirdly specific memory, but there's this one part, and the Empire strikes back toward the end when they're escaping from Cloud City. And three PO had been in pieces on Chewbacca's back and they finally get back to the Falcon and they're, they're escaping. And, um, uh, you know, three PO is laying in pieces on the ground and he sees R two D two for the first time, and R two D two beeps something and three P says, well, of course I've looked, better. And we thought it was so funny and we, we kept rewinding it so we could hear him say that line again and again.

[00:05:26] ALLIE: Wait, we as a new and me.

[00:05:28] JOSH: Yes, we, as in you and me.

[00:05:29] ALLIE: That's adorable. I have no memory of that, but I wish I did. That's so cute.

[00:05:34] SHAWN: It

[00:05:34] JOSH: Well, you were, well, yeah. I mean, you were younger than me, but we thought it was the funniest thing. So, which is something that, uh, you know, which, uh, which is something funny too because, you know, so this season on Trash Compactor, we're covering the prequels and I've been having a lot of conversations with, people our age and a little older about the Star Wars prequels and, you know, a recurring theme.

Something that keeps coming up again and again is problems with the humor seems to be a big stumbling block. And then

[00:06:04] ALLIE: that's a problem that I don't know actually, maybe I shouldn't even, cuz you're not up to the sequels yet. But I feel like in the fandom, that seems to be a thing that people have issues with in the sequel trilogy as well.

[00:06:15] JOSH: well see. I don't have a problem with the humor in the sequels, like nearly as much as

[00:06:20] ALLIE: No, I don't either. I just, that's what it made me think of.

[00:06:24] JOSH: Well the interesting thing though is that, you know, whenever I critique something or I have a criticism of something that's supposed to be humorous in any of the prequel movies, I think about moments like that where I'm like, no, like this is, it's like I feel like I have to check myself.

I'm like, but this is really for you know, 11 year olds, and would they laugh at this? And a, a lot of times, even where the prequels are concerned, my answer is still no. But I have to, like we were talking about, Attack of the Clone specifically, and like, there's this whole, running gag and the end, the end battle about how, three P gets his head on a battle droid. And it's like these like shenanigans where his head, keeps on moving and, and there are these horrible puns, like his head like falls off and he's, being dragged along next to his body and he's like, oh, I'm quite beside myself.

And it's just stuff like that, I'm just like, maybe humor for 11 year olds works the closer you are to that age. And the further the older you get, the more you try to

[00:07:31] ALLIE: I

[00:07:31] JOSH: do what you think and,

[00:07:33] ALLIE: I can't totally relate to you there, just because I love puns,

like I get, I get the, the, the, I get the,

[00:07:41] JOSH: Well, what's tricky in the case of Star Wars is the, the, the, the context and the tone. like, on the one hand it's like this very dramatic, intense kind of a battle sequence. Like I get intellectually you wanna kind of, you know, punctuate it with some moments of levity, but there's some stuff there that's just so, it's not that it's not funny.

It's says it's, it's, it's so not funny in the context.

But Allie, so I'm wondering, do you have any other memories that stand out of Star Wars when you were a kid? I guess I'm specifically curious about when the prequel movies came out, because I was so fanatical about them.

[00:08:18] ALLIE: I really only remember well. So I like now thinking about it, I did see episodes two and three in the theaters episode one. For some reason I never saw in the theater. And like I said, I didn't watch it until like last year ever. Um, I, I do remember how excited you were to see it and that you had gotten, before it came out, you had gotten like four like tickets to see it like four times that weekend.

[00:08:45] JOSH: Yeah. I don't recall specifically. There's this, uh, been a topic of much contention and it's remo, it's, it's making me realize how old I actually am. That, I have like no memory of. These things that at one time I would've been able to recount to you chapter in verses like the, the number of times and the places, and

I'm just like, yeah, I don't know.

That's

[00:09:06] ALLIE: I've always thought it was four times, but it might be one of those things that at some point the n the amount of times changed and I just kept telling myself it was four, but I have a very distinct memory of it being four. But I don't, I, I can admit that that might be wrong. I do remember, and I feel like mom tells the story all the time, that then I also heard on the, on the podcast the other day about you guys, um, like being set up to camp out and you were the only ones there and then they let you in early to see it, which is super cool.

Um, I did after we listened to that episode, I texted Chris and was like, I really think you're wrong about Josh seeing it before that, because mom has, I feel like I've heard that story so many times about, oh my gosh, Josh was camping out with his friends, and they even got to let in to see it early. Like, I none, I don't, I never heard that You saw it before them, and I think that Chris is missing something up.

[00:10:08] JOSH: don't think he is. I think he's right. I think it's a gap in my, yeah, I think it's a gap in my memory. Yeah, because as soon as he said that, I was like, wait, huh?

[00:10:17] ALLIE: And mom's memory.

[00:10:19] JOSH: Yeah. She wouldn't know. She wouldn't know. No, she wouldn't.

[00:10:23] ALLIE: all right. I think she would.

[00:10:27] JOSH: No, she wouldn't know when I saw it the first time.

[00:10:30] ALLIE: Okay.

[00:10:32] JOSH: Um, sorry, mom,

[00:10:33] ALLIE: Well, now I feel, now I feel silly that I, I, I called Chris out and you're like, no, he

[00:10:41] JOSH: no. Yeah, I'm pretty sure he's right. but what still, um, you still have in your, uh, you know, on your side of the ledger is I, I, I still can't remember exactly what the circumstances were.

[00:10:52] ALLIE: early.

[00:10:53] JOSH: I don't remember. That's the whole point

[00:10:57] SHAWN: He's got a feeling that he saw it before then. All right.

[00:11:01] JOSH: when Chris said that and the specific anecdote he recalled that, that, right. That sounds right to me. That stirs something. Anyway,

[00:11:11] ALLIE: I remember asking you how it was, and you seemed disappointed, but I don't think you would say that it was bad. Like, you didn't wanna put it down, but you also were like, I don't know that I needed to see it that many times in a row. Like you were very like, oh my God, I can't believe that.

I like, kind of sat through it that many times.

[00:11:32] JOSH: Well, that certainly sounds true. Yeah. No, no. Cuz I,

[00:11:36] ALLIE: you were definitely disappointed, but you weren't like, oh, it was terrible. I don't know. And I don't know if that was you being like, you know, you, you're still like, I can't put down the great George Lucas. Or if you really were like, you know, it's not a terrible movie. It's just not as great as I was, built it up to be in my head before

[00:11:55] JOSH: yeah. You know, those were interesting times. Um, Shawn, I'm wondering what your memories were of seeing, the prequel specifically, but of Star Wars in general. Um, I'm wondering what your, uh, sort of the arc of your relationship with the Phantom Manness, what that was like?

[00:12:14] SHAWN: Oh, uh, I am very happy to talk about that. Um, I'm a little bit older than you,

[00:12:20] JOSH: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:20] SHAWN: so when Return of the Jedi came out, I was three, which is too young to remember seeing it, but we had it on laser disc. Uh, we had New Hope on laser disc. I actually still have that laser disc. And like halfway through the movie with a lot of laser discs, you had to like, put it back in, take it out, flip

[00:12:44] JOSH: Flip it over.

[00:12:45] SHAWN: and then put it back.

Um, when I was a kid, Empire Strikes Back was my favorite. I don't know exactly why, uh, but I watched that over and over again. I think it was probably Yoda. And then, uh, I mean, I loved returning the Jedi too, but then as, as you know, but maybe a little bit more pronounced for me because I'm older than you are, there was this dearth.

Of Star Wars content where there was nothing, even, even before you got into like the, the good Books, right? There was, there was this gap. So I had like, uh, Saba on my Windows 95 computer and I had at that time, uh, do you remember zip discs?

[00:13:32] JOSH: Of course I do. I I still have some in our, our parents' house in a drawer somewhere. Yeah.

[00:13:37] SHAWN: I had a

[00:13:38] JOSH: had all my, I had all my important backup files on a zip disc.

[00:13:41] SHAWN: You had to a hundred megs. And, uh, I had a zip disc full of what I can only describe as the original Wikipedia before there was a Wikipedia. Yeah. I had like, uh, this is what Kesha is like in the mountain, Kamal, and you know, the, uh, all the ships and everything. And then, um, my dad, uh, was a supervisor at a recycling plant.

And every once in a while, he would bring me back like a jewel that someone had tried to recycle. He'd take it off the line, and it was air to the empire. And that was my introduction really, to the Star Wars novels. And from there I consumed that trilogy, the Jedi Academy trilogy, uh, the Tales from Los Isley, the courtship of Princess Leia, uh, that one that I can't remember, but takes place in like the outer, outer outer rim with the, that might be courtship of Princess Leia.

No, uh, the, the one with the, like the weird aliens that are coming from like the very edge of the

[00:14:46] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. The New Jedi order, uh, series. It was like a whole interconnected thing of like 17 novels. Like that was in the later nineties. I think there was actually perhaps some, some crossover with the, the prequel era.

[00:15:02] SHAWN: Yeah. And, and, and

[00:15:04] JOSH: So one where they,

[00:15:05] SHAWN: go ahead.

[00:15:06] JOSH: there's a one where they killed Chewbacca in the first book.

[00:15:09] SHAWN: Okay. That's where I stopped. Now, I, I actually, I refused to read that.

[00:15:13] JOSH: Oh, you're one of those.

[00:15:14] SHAWN: I, I am Can I, I don't know what your level of like swearing is, is on this, but

[00:15:21] JOSH: it's, anything goes

[00:15:23] SHAWN: I was like, no, goddamn motherfucker is allowed to kill off Chewbacca. Oh my god. In a book.

[00:15:30] JOSH: well, to be fair, to be fair. I think, I think they crushed him with like a whole planet. So, so he went out.

[00:15:39] SHAWN: that was my problem because it, my, my understanding is, um, he needs to get Ja, uh, Jayna and Jace and maybe little Anakin onto a ship, right. But for some reason he can't get on the ship, and then a moon crushes him.

[00:15:55] JOSH: Yes.

[00:15:56] SHAWN: and I feel like if Chewbacca is gonna die, he needs to go down under a pile of bodies.

That I, I feel like that, like a cleon, I feel like that's the

[00:16:08] JOSH: Yeah, I guess, no, that's fair. I guess there's some, yeah, there's some overlap with, uh, the, uh, you know, clinging on and wooki sort of vibes. I think so, yeah. So he would've to go, yeah. Okay. All right.

[00:16:26] SHAWN: not to skip ahead to Force Awakens, but if they had killed Chewbacca on, uh, on the, the planet right after Ahan dies, I would've been okay with that.

[00:16:39] JOSH: Well, yeah, because he, yeah, it's sort of like, you know, he goes down without, without, it's like he goes down with the ship. It's like, you know, if Han's gone well, then. then all bets are off. Then I'm, I'm throwing in the towel.

[00:16:52] SHAWN: Right. There's, there's 58 dead storm troopers and then Chewbacca dies and I'm okay with that. But anyway, sorry. Um, so we, I, I, uh, I consume those vigorously, um, tells the most icely might be, uh, one of my favorite non-air to the empire. Uh, stories. I just love those little, like, insights into the characters of the, of the cantina.

Um,

[00:17:16] JOSH: yeah, I remember those books.

[00:17:18] SHAWN: the, the, I watched the special auditions in theaters when they came out. I was disappointed with the, uh, the addition scenes, um, Guido shooting first,

[00:17:34] JOSH: Well, that's the big one.

[00:17:35] SHAWN: yeah, I mean, that's the, that's the huge one, but I felt like a lot of it didn't really add anything. And then there were like these weird, like technical, uh, errors that they left in, like the, uh, you can see the mats around the tie fighters.

[00:17:48] JOSH: Yeah, which is weird too. Cause that's one of the things that they said that they fixed, yet you could still see them. Uh, there was another thing too that they, uh, that they left in. Like, I, I just discovered this one not that long ago. Like, there's a shot in a new Hope where, um, Luke is in his X-Wing cockpit in the end battle sequence over the Death Star.

And like, um, one of like the tiny windows in the cockpit is still blue screen. Like they just, I guess like nobody noticed it. And I was like, huh. Because what I was like close, examining and zooming in on like, was the, the Disney Plus version. So it was the latest and greatest, like has. Has been reworked a zillion times, and I'm like, oh, that's a legitimate mistake.

That surely somebody who, who's, who's doing any kind of revisions, edits, uh, revamps to this movie would ha have caught, and they just did not fix it.

[00:18:53] SHAWN: so other than the two Ewok movies there was no substantial, like media other than books to consume. And so, and I, I know that like, caravan of Courage wasn't popular and still isn't, but I loved it as a kid.

[00:19:10] JOSH: Really

[00:19:11] SHAWN: Yeah.

[00:19:12] JOSH: well. Then once again, I think for the intended audience, I don't think some of these things that we think of as like mistakes or misfires are actually hitting right on target. I think

[00:19:23] SHAWN: is, is it that one or the other one where the family dies at the beginning.

[00:19:26] JOSH: that the other one, uh, a battle for Endor

[00:19:31] SHAWN: Yeah. Battle for Indoor. That one I liked

[00:19:33] JOSH: in a very, in a ver Oh, so you like the one where the family does at the beginning.

[00:19:37] SHAWN: Yes. Uh, with the exception of that part, uh, be because they do that, they, they have those like, um, LifeScan sensors for each family member on their wrist. And then as each one dies, the main character watches their family Members's, life scanned, signatures bleep out and it's, it's a very kind of morbid Thing for, for Star Wars.

[00:19:59] JOSH: No, it's very dramatic. It's a very cool concept. It's just like, this is a movie for like six year olds, bro. Like, what are you doing?

[00:20:07] SHAWN: Right. I dunno. There was something about it that, that I liked.

[00:20:12] JOSH: well, there's something that I have come to believe I should give credit to, um, to the originator. her name is Elizabeth Sandifer. She's a, a comics writer and a critic. She's primarily known for her work , on Dr. Who, but she also has written some Star Wars, criticisms. And she, she always says that the best children's media fucks you up just the right amount for life, right?

[00:20:38] SHAWN: like Atreyu on the swamp.

[00:20:39] JOSH: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. so, and I kind of agree with that because it's sort of like children's media is basically teaching kids how to live in the world. Like what, what real life is like, what the real world is like. And I think that, you know, it's a safe way to kind of help them make sense of the inexplicable, the, the unfair, the horrific.

And I think, you know, the best, most effective children's media is the kind of stuff that like really gets to you, but not so much that you'll never watch it again. And I also think that the best children's media kind of goes over your head a little bit, but not so much that you're not connecting with it.

[00:21:24] SHAWN: So you have something to reach for.

[00:21:26] JOSH: yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, like for example, the politics in the Phantom Menace, I think goes over a lot of kids' heads, but you have a sense that there's something going on and it's important. You don't know exactly what it means or the details of it, but you have a sense that there's something there.

Or like in my case, like the stuff with Yoda and the Empire Strikes Back, I didn't necessarily know exactly what he was talking about when he was, dispensing all of this, sort of Eastern philosophy and, and Buddhist wisdom, but you know, now as an adult I'm like, oh, I see what, I see, what lessons they're trying to impart in children.

I see what he's talking about. when I was a kid, it was probably more like, I don't really know what that means, but it sounds real important, so, so I'll just kind of go with it.

[00:22:14] SHAWN: so to circle back to your original question, uh, Phantom, when, when that trailer hit, It set my life on fire. That trailer was astounding. You know, you see the, with the double lightsaber and you have this obviously some kind of Sith Lord. And, uh, my friends and I were super geeky, excited about it. When did that come out?

Uh, 99.

[00:22:44] JOSH: Yeah, the trailer came out. I think it may have come out in 98 and around November 98, but I'm not, a hundred percent. I know. Uh, there was a second trailer that came out in like March, April 99. Uh, trailer B

[00:22:57] SHAWN: Oh,

[00:22:57] JOSH: it's known as it's known in the, uh, in the biz,

[00:23:00] SHAWN: In the big,

[00:23:00] JOSH: uh, um,

[00:23:01] SHAWN: yeah, in, in November 98, I was 18 years old and I was still 100% all the way psyched for it. I f I feel like we had never seen a trailer like that for any other movie. I think definitely not for any kind of franchise movie or anything that you looked forward to. And then finally to have Star Wars back again on the big screen, it, it was, it was mind blowing.

And growing up, I had heard, like in interviews or whatever, people who talked about seeing New Hope for the first time in theaters and describing it as magic, like the whole experience was magical. And I was like, ah, yes. Finally I get to supp at that table. But then, um, it didn't, uh, satiate necessarily that hunger all the way for that magic.

[00:23:52] JOSH: So let me ask you then, Shawn. Was that something that you were, you knew by your first viewing that, that these weren't the droids you were looking for? Or was it sort of, did it take. A little longer for it to sink in cuz it's an interesting phenomenon. I've noticed with a lot of Star Wars fans, like, we're so invested with the movie being good, the idea that it could, be anything less than the most amazing thing we'd ever seen was, hard to get to

[00:24:21] SHAWN: I think it took a little while. Cause I think that initial, like riding the rollercoaster of, it's finally here. It's been, uh, what, 20, 23 years or what, however long it is. I'm not good at math and my memory's terrible.

[00:24:36] JOSH: 16 years since return to The Jedi.

[00:24:38] SHAWN: Okay. 16 years since returning to the jeti. I think it just, I think just being there and it was so overwhelming and the action sequences were, were fantastic.

I think the CGI probably would still, for the most part hold up pretty well, with, you know, some notable exceptions but on rewatch, I feel like the pacing on, uh, the more political things are really lags. And now I have trouble staying awake during some of those parts, but, and I'm

[00:25:08] JOSH: that.

could just also, I mean, that could just also be a little bit of age. I mean, let's be honest, like I can't, I have trouble, uh, staying awake during things sometimes as well.

[00:25:19] SHAWN: That's it. It could be.

[00:25:21] ALLIE: Josh. Um, so I know that you and Shawn like know each other, but you've never met in person and like, I don't know if you realized how big of a Star Wars fan he is. So I just wanted to share. You did tell me, I believe while we, when we were doing our, our watch through that, um, you grew your hair out. Oh, and I wanted, I wanted that to be shared.

That's how big of a Star Wars fan Shawn has been his whole life.

[00:25:49] SHAWN: I attempted a Padawan braid

after episode one. Yes, I had, I had traditionally, uh, shaved my head very short, like a buzz cut. And then after, , episode one, I had attempted to grow out just that hair so that it could be braided.

[00:26:08] JOSH: So you couldn't have hated it that much.

[00:26:10] SHAWN: No, I didn't hate it.

No, I definitely didn't hate it. I definitely didn't hate it. It was super exciting in theaters and, no, but, you know, given time, I, I've come to different conclusions.

[00:26:21] JOSH: I thought you were gonna say you wanted to like, to like be a wookie or something, but, uh, that makes much more, that makes much more sense,

[00:26:30] ALLIE: It's more attainable. I probably would've explained it better if I could remember the word pawan, but I was like, you can grow his hair, Shawn. You can take it now that, yeah.

You know what I'm talking about.

[00:26:39] SHAWN: So when I, when I would buzz my hair, I would skip that bit right there by the ear.

[00:26:45] JOSH: right?

[00:26:46] SHAWN: And I never really got it long enough, thankfully.

Probably.

[00:26:51] JOSH: Uh, does it ever kind of twig you out? Like, every once in a while in, in pop culture, like I'll hear, like a. Star Wars prequel reference, and it always blows my mind that, that the prequels have also entered, pop culture to some degree. Like the word I hear quite often, well, not quite often, but, but the word I've heard more than once in like random, pop culture is padawan.

Like, oh, my young Padawan.

[00:27:15] SHAWN: Hmm. Yeah, no,

it

does.

[00:27:18] JOSH: yeah, I'm always like really weird,

[00:27:20] SHAWN: yeah, it doesn't feel like that was 24 years ago.

but it was, no, it feels more like maybe six. But my ability to track time is severely lacking, so no, it, it does surprise me. Yeah.

[00:27:34] ALLIE: I do have one more memory of Josh with Star Wars. You got, I don't, you'll probably remember which version of Windows this was, but you had a computer where you installed something on, Windows.

So when you booted your computer up, it said, patience Young Jedi. Oh. Windows 98 is loading. It was Windows 98 patients, young Jedi. Windows 98 is loading.

[00:27:57] JOSH: I have no memory of that, but that sounds Correct.

[00:28:02] ALLIE: Yep. So could I just say though, that you had asked us to do this podcast with you and it had been like close to, if not already a year since we'd done the rewatch. Well, rewatch of most of them for me, except rewatch, plus Phantom Menace for me. and Shawn was like, okay, we should probably rewatch them again, because I don't remember like exactly, you know, when we, when I watched them with you, like what your reactions were and what my, you know, so we were gonna rewatch them and we started with The Phantom Menace and partway through, I was like, I don't, I don't think I can do this again.

Like, And we, and then we got busy and didn't watch the rest of them, but like Phantom Menace, I was like, I don't wanna watch this one again. Like, I was like, there's a reason why that was the only one I'd never seen. And I was like, yeah, I'm kind of fine with seeing it. The one time I do, I mean, I like Qui-Gon a lot.

There's things that are, that are nice about it, but as a whole it's like, it's kind, it's not great to sit through. Unfortunately,

[00:28:59] SHAWN: I am a person that's into like political intrigue and like, you can definitely keep me interested in like trade disputes and stuff like that, but I feel like there's just something missing.

Yeah. From all of that. A lot of Star Trek is kind of like that, you know, it's, it's that drier more political stuff. And I, I'll drink from that cup all day long, but I, I don't know if it's the dialogue or the pacing or, the direction.

[00:29:31] JOSH: Yeah. it's kind of hard to put my finger on as well. you know, something we were talking about in our Phantom Menace pod is the way that the movie has all these threads, but they never really seem cohesive. It's like, it's like you seem it, it kind of feels like you're in like three or four different movies.

And I think, you know, just for me, the stakes of the political stuff aren't clear

[00:29:55] SHAWN: Yeah.

[00:29:56] JOSH: and it's only, you know, like we, uh, they call it refrigerator logic. It's, it's, it's stuff that you don't really think about until, you know, you wake up in the middle of the night to get a glass of water understanding by the fridge and you're like, oh, that's what that meant.

but usually those things aren't supposed to be like, central plot points of the movie that you're watching. It seems like the, the intent of the, the political. Subplot should have been clearer in order to make the states clearer beyond some like vague, like, oh, the, the government is bad and it's not, it's not helping us, so we have to fix it ourselves.

And it's not really clear exactly why are going on the way that they're going on when I think it's a pretty, actually it's a pretty compelling thesis. Like as a mission statement for Star Wars, it's basically saying, you know, corporate greed is the root of all evil is basically what it's saying.

And it's saying, you know, government has to, has to stand as, uh, a bulwark to greed. And when it doesn't, then you get fascism. I mean, I'm on board with that, but like that is just, it's very unclear that that's what the movie is trying to say.

[00:31:13] SHAWN: Yeah. I feel like to flash forward to much more recently, I feel like, Andor handles it really well. There's a lot of political intrigue in there. There's a lot of political discussion. There's a lot of, fascist ideologies that are being displayed. And, and they do it so well, so we know that it works.

[00:31:33] ALLIE: Yeah. Andor was wonderful. I like, I kind of am still in shock at how, amazing it was. And it makes you like really think about the consequences of being a rebel. And like, and all of that really works for me because I'm, you know, I'm in a lot of leftist circles and you, we kind of like think about that kind of stuff.

You know, like, okay, if you're gonna be non-violent, you know, there's consequences to that. And then if you're gonna be violent, there's consequences to that. Like the extremes of different ways of like trying to overthrow fascism.

[00:32:05] JOSH: Yeah. Well, to be fair, yeah, like, like I agree with you. I think that Andor is fantastic and amazing and the, the thing that I kind of struggle with my one, criticism, which isn't even a criticism, is like, is it too good to be Star Wars? And I don't mean that in a facile way. Like what I'm saying is like, star Wars was never a site for that kind of like really authentic rendering of like real, revolution or like social change.

It, um,

[00:32:39] ALLIE: makes sense that it, that it can be though

[00:32:41] JOSH: it makes sense that it can be, it makes sense that it can be,

[00:32:44] ALLIE: when you look at the real world allegories from, , you know, the original trilogy. Like they didn't go into it that hard, you know, like emotionally and like, I don't know grittiness wise, but like, but really like, it, it totally makes sense that

[00:33:00] JOSH: right. No, but

[00:33:02] ALLIE: like they, you know, this was like children's cartoon that all of a sudden like people are dying in and it's gory.

Like, it, it makes sense. I do see what you're saying and that's kind actually what I was thinking when you said something. I think one of the books Shawn had mentioned, you're like, this is, you know, this is a, a, a children's movie guy. And I was thinking, well, yeah, you could have that same criticism though about, Andor which I guess is now you're saying you kind of do

[00:33:25] JOSH: Well, no, but I mean, I don't think that, Andor is a children's show.

[00:33:28] ALLIE: No, it's totally not.

[00:33:30] JOSH: right? So I mean, that's my point. Like, like, and I think, you know, when we live in a media kind of ecosystem where, you know, the strategy is, divide the audience into segments and give each one exactly their version of Star Wars.

And that's like how you get the, like, platter of Star Wars. Like what, what it, what it kind of does is, um, you know, Andor can coexist with all these other flavors of Star Wars, but I don't think it can stand as like the quintessential Star Wars, uh, because it's not, because it's not for kids. It's not like, I think, you know, star Wars is kind of simplistic, and again, I don't mean that in a demeaning way.

I mean it, you know, in a way that hints at these larger things in a way that, may go over kids' heads, but isn't too much for them to grapple with. Like if you set a kid, if you set a nine year old in front, of, Andor if you showed a nine year old season, one of, of, Andor like, I don't think they would even be able to sift through it.

[00:34:30] ALLIE: Yeah. Like I'm, I'm glad that Brolin actually isn't interested in that

[00:34:34] JOSH: Um, though that said, like, I. You know, I don't think like, like just as a, a piece of drama, like just as a TV series, like, Andor may be as good as Star Wars has ever been on that front. Like when you're judging it, solely, you know, in those terms. But I think as Star Wars, I don't think I could bring myself to say it's the best Star Wars there is.

Does that make sense?

[00:35:01] ALLIE: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's interesting because I've been having a lot of thoughts about, actually, not about Star Wars, but about, um, the Marvel Cinematic universe. We saw Guardians of the Galaxy Three, which I know you're not into Marvel, so I don't know, like, but I, but I mean, you're, I'm sure you're friends with a lot of people who are into Marvel. Guardians of the Galaxy Three,

that is the most, I've cried at a movie ever. If we weren't in the theater, I would've been balling like wailing. I never wanna sit through that movie again. I'm really glad I saw it because I care about these characters. But I'm really sensitive to animal stuff. And I did hear, I did see in interviews, you know, it was like hinted at like that it would be tough, but they're the marketing for it though.

Like they're, this should not, like, kids should not see this movie. It was like hard. It's, I'm weeks later, I'm still like grappling with this, this movie, it was like traumatic to sit through and I've seen a lot of other people say the same thing and put like trigger warnings. You know, there's like articles about how it should come with a trigger warning and none of that is in the marketing.

And then, you know, McDonald's has like Happy meal toys. Which like makes sense sort of for the first two movies, it does

[00:36:25] JOSH: that's interesting.

[00:36:26] ALLIE: movie. So it's, it's just, it just gets real dark and, uh, yeah, so I don't, but like, and, but, Andor I don't, isn't like marketed to kids. I think Star Wars is more like they market it.

There's so many different pieces now that they market it to who they like. There, there's like a, a cartoon on Disney Plus, God, I don't remember what it's called, but it's like shorts,

[00:36:50] SHAWN: young Wings.

[00:36:51] ALLIE: Is it Young Wings? Is that, it's young ones. It's

[00:36:54] JOSH: No there.

[00:36:55] ALLIE: Preschoolers. And you know, that's not marketed to adults.

They're not like, oh, you have to watch this or else, you're gonna like miss out on Canon, or, you know,

[00:37:04] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:37:05] ALLIE: whereas I feel with role, they, they need, might need to figure out how to kind of be a little more, I don't know, market. I don't know. I just, that's, it's an interesting thing to bring it up about Star Wars, but I think Star Wars does it better.

[00:37:19] JOSH: No, no, I hear what you're saying. And I think, um, you know, I can't really speak to the Marvel stuff because I'm not, I'm not a fan of that stuff and I haven't really seen the vast majority of it, but I do get the sense that, uh, there's kind of a marvel like strategy with Star Wars in terms of creating like different sort of segments of the audience.

Like, you know, there's like Wanda Vision and like Loki and stuff like that where you don't necessarily have to watch the films that they put out.

to kind of enjoy those on its own terms. Um, at least, so I'm told, I don't really know, but it is interesting, like, do you think that Guardians of the Galaxy Three was out of step with the first two movies?

Uh, because like there's a world where, and arguably we live in that world, but, um, you know, episode three, Revenge of the Sith kind of goes to a very dark place that I don't know if episodes one and two would've prepared you for you know, the full grizzly horror of, of what happens to Anakin Skywalker but on that note, and again, I appreciate that you did this rewatch a year ago already, but, I think that's sort of fine, because I'm kind of more interested in the overall impressions. , and I guess my main question is watching. So you watched, , You watched episodes one through nine, so the Phantom Menace to The Rise of Skywalker, is that right?

[00:38:42] ALLIE: Yes, and Solo

[00:38:45] JOSH: and

Rogue One.

[00:38:46] SHAWN: one.

[00:38:48] JOSH: Um, so does the story hang together? Does it work as one long story? Episode one to nine, I guess is my overall question when you watch it that way.

[00:39:04] SHAWN: I would say for the most part, yes.

[00:39:08] ALLIE: Yeah, I think it does. I mean, it's, it's clear that like this wasn't planned from the beginning, but it, I think it, I think it works.

[00:39:19] SHAWN: Yeah. I mean, there's, there's some inconsistencies. Inconsistencies there, right. But, and, and some choices that I would've preferred not been made.

But for the most part, I think if you look at it as a single piece, it probably works okay.

[00:39:36] JOSH: Well, , to get more specific, , does the Anakin downfall redemption thing play when you watch them one through six? Like, because my question has always is always been like, it seems to me that this whole idea of Anakin falling from grace and then living a life as a villain and then his ultimate redemption by his son at the end of Return of the Jedi, to me is kind of like more of intellectual idea that like has all of like the kind of components in the right places, but like, I don't know if it's really yet emotional journey that you feel like you're going on with the movies themselves.

[00:40:17] SHAWN: Uh, I feel like his redemption arc is almost more like an in world redemption arc.

[00:40:25] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:40:25] SHAWN: Like perhaps a piece of propaganda, the rebellion would, would spread than necessarily what we witnessed.

I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense,

[00:40:36] JOSH: No, I get what you're saying. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like, you know, the rebellion could be like, you know, and Darth Vader recanted at the very end, like in his dying breath, you know, whatever. Um, but yeah, I mean, like it's really interesting, like the way that this character arc was arrived at was kind of completely backwards.

Like, it just sort of, you know, Darth Vader was not Anakin Skywalker when he made Star Wars.

So then, you know, by that point in the saga, if you're watching three and then four, you're watching with the knowledge that he was once a good guy. And there's kind of like very little, it seems to me, to really grab onto in Star Wars A New Hope that this is the same character who's struggling with any of the stuff that you'd seen in the previous three movies.

Seems

[00:41:26] SHAWN: Uh, I, I think I agree with that pretty much in his totality. I think what I would've l preferred was no little Anakin. Phantom Menace picks us up on a young Anakin, like, uh, maybe late teens, early twenties. We get two movies of Anakin and then the third prequel, uh, he has his fall at the end of the second one, and he is Darth Vader mm-hmm.

For the entirety of the third movie. And he gets a ton of screen time

[00:41:59] JOSH: that's

interesting.

[00:42:01] SHAWN: and we, see why he's feared and, but we also get to see that struggle while he's newly Vader. And then I think that would've given us the context for Return of the Jedi. Okay. What's his to, what's his total screen time and A New Hope and Empire?

Right. It's,

[00:42:19] JOSH: well, that's interesting. Do you think you would've wanted to see him in the suit for the third movie?

[00:42:25] SHAWN: yeah. I, I think so. I think if you're gonna go back and you're gonna do the prequels, then you have to, it works in A New Hope and Empire because he's mysterious. He's this, uh, kind of looming figure that's, uh, in the background that you don't, you don't need it because he's, he's a villain.

And then the what happens in return on the Jedi is kind of enough. But if you're gonna add three movies, a backstory, you kind of need more backstory for Anakin and for him to be conflicted. And so I would say, yeah, at, at the end, you end, the second prequel movie on Mustafar with the dual with Obi-Wan, and you pick it up with him newly in the suit.

And, uh, both the physical and emotional and mental struggles that he goes through. And then why, why he is this villain that is feared.

[00:43:20] JOSH: Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, what do you think about that, Allie, about that idea?

[00:43:24] ALLIE: Yeah, I, I think that would have worked a lot better. The turn was my favorite of the prequels, , is episode three, but that's almost like more frustrating because I feel like parts of it work and then all of a sudden it, I'm like, wait, what? How did he just turn so fast? Like, I get what you're saying when you're like, you know, all the parts are there, but does it work?

Like the execution of it just doesn't work really at all. And so when you're watching it, it's also hard to like divorce yourself from the knowledge that four, five, and six were written and released and everything before. One, two and three. And so, you know, like, okay, this isn't, this story wasn't written like this.

So yeah, I don't, that part doesn't really work. Anakin's turn into Vader. Um, and that's part of why I like all the supplemental stuff. Like I know that a lot of people didn't like the Obi-Wan series, but

[00:44:26] JOSH: Who didn't like the Obi-Wan Series I I love the

[00:44:28] ALLIE: I mean we did. Yeah. We loved it. We did, but

[00:44:32] SHAWN: she's in the dark corners of the internet.

[00:44:34] ALLIE: Yeah, that's, that's the problem.

I start, when I start, when I start like getting into a fandom. It started with Marvel stuff and now I'm in this in Star Wars too, which is, star Wars is a lot more

[00:44:44] JOSH: Never read the comments. Never read the

[00:44:46] ALLIE: Yeah. Well I do, so a lot of people didn't like, um, the Obi-Wan series, but I loved a lot of it. Most of it.

And. Yeah, Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor back, like their scenes were .

Great.

I mean, Mo you know, Ewan McGregor was in a lot of it, but like, like Vader's scenes with him, they just worked so well. And like, I love all that, you know, filling in these gaps. Like, I, and I also think that's a, that's a really unique thing to Star Wars that I really like, you know, like Clone wars filled in some gaps.

And I feel like because that was so successful, like now, you know, Mandalorian's starting to fill in some gaps between six and seven and, they're like going in these interesting directions to be like, well, this didn't really work, but how can we make it work with all these other pieces, which I is in some ways you're like, oh my God, there's more, like, in order, in order for this to work, I have to go back and watch this and this.

But it like, I don't know, it's like exciting to me because. For some reason, even someone who like didn't love Star Wars as a kid, I mean, I've always had like a fondness for it through, probably through you, but like, you like want it to work, you know, the parts that are good are really good. And so the parts that are not as good are frustrating.

So like

[00:46:06] SHAWN: that's a really great way to put that, I think.

[00:46:08] ALLIE: it's funny, so like watching. One, two, and three especially. I'm like, parts of the, I get, I see what he was trying to do. It doesn't, execution wise, doesn't really work. And then I listened to your, your pod with, um, with Hal and was like, oh, okay.

And I, I haven't been able to download those yet. Like, I, if they were like, more easily available

[00:46:31] JOSH: Oh, you're talking about the Hal 9,000 fan edits.

[00:46:33] ALLIE: Yeah. Like, I really wanna watch, because the whole time we're watching them, I'm like, there's a better movie in here somewhere. And I'm sure that,

[00:46:40] JOSH: well, let's talk after the recording and maybe, , they might find their way into your hands.

[00:46:44] ALLIE: You know, I, and I, I love that people kind of do fill in the gaps or re-edit stuff.

Because you just want things to work better than they do.

[00:46:55] JOSH: Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. Um, I think that, you know, I was saying this on the Obi-Wan pod, but we did, I think that series, you know, really offers a compelling alternate universe where, like that story, the emotional core of that show is really like a way that episode four of the saga could have played out with the prequel movies that, we had.

You know, like it kind of works as is where you get this huge shift from episode three to four where it's like, oh, it's about his son now it's not about him. Like, that story's over and now we're seeing things from a completely different point of view. But I feel like it's a very logical, it's like, it's like as a viewer, , you want to see stuff like when Obi-Wan finds out that Anakin is alive and is Vader, like, you wanna see them confront each other in a real way, um, not in the way that they do in Star Wars a New Hope when theoretically that's them seeing each other again. But in reality, that's not what the, the, the dynamics of that scene, that lightsaber dual that they have in Star Wars, It's like that is not the follow up to what we see in episode three. It's just not,

that sort of emotional payoff is like what you would want to see in the next movie.

[00:48:15] ALLIE: Yeah, it's sort of like the Obi-Wan series is closer to the episode three that Shawn would've wanted.

[00:48:21] JOSH: Kind of.

[00:48:22] ALLIE: Yeah. You know, and that's what's nice about all of these like supplemental pieces that are kind of coming in at all different points in the. Sky, well, so far the Skywalker saga, but I know there's, you know, other things possibly in the works about being in Star Wars and not, you know, being in this time period or in this, um, really revolving around this like, main story.

but like they are filling in the gaps and making it like more interesting and dynamic and you sort of get it more, a little bit.

[00:48:51] JOSH: Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of of two minds about it because obviously like if it's good, it's good, and if it's like Star Wars, then it's, it's Star Wars. But I'm like, I kind of almost wish that like, I don't know if Star Wars really exists beyond this moment in like the historical timeline of Star Wars. Like, I think like there's something really fundamental about the specific conflict and the personalities involved that I don't think Star Wars outside of the quote unquote Galactic Civil War and like the, the generational conflict, it's like, I just think that's something so central to what Star Wars is that like, you know, one of the announced films sounds kind of interesting.

The, the Dawn of the Jedi movie, that's about like the beginning of the Jedi, like thousands and thousands of years in the past. Like, that sounds cool. but like, is it really Star Wars or is it just like something that's in Star Wars clothing that they will call Star Wars that I will see because it is Star Wars.

Right. Does that make any sense? Am I articulating myself properly?

[00:49:55] SHAWN: I think so. I think, I think what you're saying is the, the Empire and the conflict that revolves around the Empire is pretty essential. To, to the star, to, for it to be Star Wars in a way that we recognize.

[00:50:12] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. That's more or less what I'm saying. Yeah. And I don't think you can really escape, like, like even the prequels for my money only really work as a prelude to that story, not a story in and of themselves.

[00:50:26] SHAWN: Oh,

[00:50:27] JOSH: you know, maybe there was a version of those stories that could have worked on their own.

but I find it personally very baffling, apparently. You know, George Lucas believes he said numerous times that the intended order to watch them as episodes one through six. And I'm just like, that's not the most effective way to watch the story you told. It's, it's, it's just not,

[00:50:53] ALLIE: because you're not, like, it doesn't grab you in one through three enough to continue. Is what you're saying?

[00:51:00] JOSH: potentially, but I just think, you know, the original trilogy is a better introduction to the world. I think that the, you know, like you were saying, Allie, the, the downfall of Anakin. Doesn't really, well, I guess it's impossible to know how it, how it plays without knowing what happens later. I mean, you would have to, it's like, you know, with my daughter, I will maybe do an experiment even though she already knows so much of like So you sent her, were you the one who sent her the um, the Star Wars five minute stories?

[00:51:32] ALLIE: No, I don't. I sent her the

Search Your Feelings book

[00:51:36] JOSH: Yeah. Well, she loves all of them. The point is,

[00:51:39] ALLIE: another one. I don't know. I don't think it was

that one though.

[00:51:41] JOSH: she said to me the other day, she's like, I like Star Wars daddy. And I was like, oh wow. Okay. Well, uh, like she's, she's recognizing things like, cuz like she has like four or five, star Wars. No, she has six, kids. star Wars, things now, and they retell, like little segments of the movies, in like a children's story book format, right? And like, she remembers the different, tellings from different things. Like, so like she, she remembers, there was a thing that was talking about the forest moon of Endor.

And she was like, the Ewoks lived there. And I'm like, I'm like,

[00:52:18] ALLIE: Oh my God,

that's so

[00:52:20] JOSH: So, so, I think that, this hypothetical experiment that like one day she's gonna watch Star Wars and not know what happens later is just already out the window.

Because I just think through osmosis, like sh she's going to piece it all together. And there's this phenomenon. I was talking to another friend of mine who has little cousins who are like really into Star Wars and like she was trying to connect with them. yes, Caroline, I'm talking about you if you're listening.

Um, and she was like, yeah, like my favorite Star Wars is return to the Jedi. Like, what do you think of that? And the kids are like, what is that? Right? So, so it's like, you know, like you can, you can be a Star Wars fan as a kid and not even have seen the movies.

[00:53:01] ALLIE: That's exciting for them. Like they're so into something and then, you know, their cousin is like, oh, there's, there's all these movies, and then they get to watch it for the same time already being super invested in the world. That's awesome.

[00:53:14] JOSH: No, it's true. It's very true. And I think, you know, something I say a lot is that George Lucas says that he very intentionally sat down to create like a new mythology for children. And I think in that sense, he's succeeded wildly, I think beyond even his own expectations and what that actually means.

It's like, you know, Star Wars isn't just a series of very popular movies. it's even beyond something that, you know, the lexicon is kind of entered pop culture and. it like really is like these ideas, these symbols, these, um, it's like a place that exists where, um, it exists independent of itself.

It exists independent of specific movies or specific, entries in the cannon. It's just a thing. It's this omnipresent, always there thing that is alive and vital and that, that is as much a creation of, I don't wanna call them fans because it makes it sound transactional, but like at this point, it's a creation of like the public imagination as much as it is whatever, officially licensed property, They release on Disney Plus or in movie theaters?

[00:54:27] ALLIE: Yeah,

[00:54:28] JOSH: Seems to me.

[00:54:28] ALLIE: no, that to that totally makes sense. So I don't know if when we did the rewatch, I was going based off of like, my impression of Star Wars was like, from growing up with you. Or you know, I did see the movies, but not, you know, I wasn't like really super paying attention and like remembering everything when I, you know, watched one here and then another there.

Or if it was just, yeah, like the society, like media, like knowing things just from it being around and a part of our culture now.

[00:55:01] JOSH: Yeah. Well, for example, like, like everyone knows that Darth Vader's Luke Skywalker's father, uh, I mean, even if you've never seen Star Wars, like, you know, that.

[00:55:09] ALLIE: Yeah.

[00:55:10] JOSH: And like, what's really interesting is that twist, quote unquote , has taken on this life in, you know, cultural memory as like, one of the greatest cinematic twists of all time.

Yet the movies are fighting against the idea that it's a twist. like if you're watching them one through six or one through nine, whatever, they're not treating it as a twist.

[00:55:34] ALLIE: Right.

[00:55:35] JOSH: And I think it's a tricky thing when you're doing a prequel, especially to something that like is so firmly embedded in popular culture as Star Wars is because like on the one hand, you want to do your own thing and. Not, be beholden to what people think Star Wars is. But on the other hand, it's like the gravity of it is so strong you can't escape it. So like, I don't know that the twist of Darth Vader being Luke's father is something worth preserving, , like in the context of the movies, because it's already sort of, blown up as it were, uh, because of just like existing in the world. It's just like, up there with like, you know, rose butt or something. And, I think the movie. I guess I'm talking myself into circles here. because like, I don't like that the prequels kind of destroy the narrative logic of the umpire strikes. back because Uh, the prequels do two things that make the empire strikes back less effective.

The introduction of Yoda in the Empire strikes back. You don't know that this is Yoda. I mean, even if you suspect, Like, that whole game he's playing, where he's like some, know, silly little frog that, that is not

[00:56:56] SHAWN: a, he's a space hobo.

[00:56:59] JOSH: right. Exactly. He's a space hobo.

Uh, like that, reveal. Doesn't really work. And also the, uh, obviously the reveal that, Vader has been Anakin Skywalker this whole time doesn't really work. and it's sort of like, it, it makes the audience ask questions for longer than I think they're meant to. Like, why is Yoda acting like this?

How long is he gonna be acting like this?

[00:57:23] ALLIE: Mm. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

[00:57:25] JOSH: or like, what is he doing? It's like, why is he being so silly? Like there is maybe a reading where it's like, oh my God. Like, has, how long has Yoda been all alone on this planet? Like, has he really lost his mind?

Um,

[00:57:36] ALLIE: feel like that's a little bit how like I, I mean I know who, I knew who Yoda was going into like the rewatch and everything, but I did a little bit like, holy crap, like the difference between Yoda in the prequels and Yoda and the original trilogy is Tri in the original trilogy is Stark. I think I commented that I, I'm pretty sure I said something about that like that, and then I was like, you know, I like Yoda better in the, the original trilogy.

And then I think you talked me into like, okay, but when he was younger

[00:58:06] SHAWN: he had a little bit more vigor 18 years ago. He

[00:58:09] ALLIE: Yeah. And I was like, all right, no, that tracks it does track. I like, I love Yoda in, in Empire and I just, I wish there was more of that in the prequels, but I understand like, it, it's in a much different stage in his life and in, you know, different context of like the world he lives in has, has completely changed.

Or the, the universe he lives in has completely

[00:58:33] SHAWN: yeah, we don't know the psych dial, the psychedelic properties or those frogs he's been eating.

[00:58:37] JOSH: that's true. that's true. We don't know what was in that, that stew he was making for Luke, like, Um,

[00:58:47] SHAWN: I love that scene in Empire when I was a kid, by the way, when we first meet Yoda and then Yoda's hitting

[00:58:53] JOSH: yeah, he's hitting R two with the stick. Yeah.

[00:58:57] SHAWN: Mine, or I help you not.

[00:58:58] ALLIE: Actually, um, earlier you mentioned remembering us rewatching a scene with Threepio over and over. I remember from high school, when my friends and I rewatched Empire, um, there's a scene where he is, teaching Luke, where Yoda's teaching Luke and he's saying, concentrate, and then he like, falls.

Ah. And we thought, yeah. And in high school we thought that was hilarious. Which like, now I'm like, really? Like, I feel like when I was maybe a little younger than that, that would've, that should have hit that hard. But like we rewatched that like four or five times.

[00:59:37] JOSH: I mean, you never know how these things are gonna hit.

[00:59:40] ALLIE: yeah, but, but your story reminded me of that. And I'll, I'll just never forget that. I don't know why. It was just, it was good.

[00:59:47] SHAWN: I think that's a testament to the puppeteers and to Oh, yeah. Um, Frank Oz. Frank

Oz. Yeah.

[00:59:52] JOSH: Yeah. you know, uh, to your earlier point, Shawn, I think I'm agnostic on whether or not, Anakin should have been Vader in episode three. Like the formalist in me likes, the sort of, mirroring structure of like basically the idea is that, Luke and Anakin are supposed to be paralleling each other, and it's just that they make different choices at, different junctures.

So, so, so, uh, so part of me really likes that I would hate, to lose that, but I do see what you're saying. uh, but also in service of that too, that's yet another reason why I do think that, that, um, Anakin should have not been nine years old in Episode One. He should have been a little older, uh, closer in age to Luke in Star Wars, A New Hope, not only in service of that structure, but also because, you know, I said earlier that I find the arc of Anakin slash Vader to be kind of an intellectual idea. It's like, it's like, you know, more of an intellectual exercise and less of like a. A journey that I'm, I'm on along with this character.

Um, I don't really connect with it emotionally. And part of the reason is it's this character played by so many different performers, so many different actors, and you don't even have the same face to kind of empathize with for that long. Like the young Anakin is played by, two actors who are just not the same person.

And I think, you know, Hayden Christensen as the face of Anakin Skywalker, who's ostensibly the main character of these movies, you only see his face in two movies out of six.

[01:01:31] SHAWN: Mm-hmm. Right.

[01:01:32] JOSH: so you're losing. One third of his, potential screen time, by depicting him as a child with a younger actor. I feel like that, that really makes the story like more of an intellectual exercise and like less of a like, here's a character you're really supposed to empathize with.

[01:01:51] SHAWN: Yeah, I think, I think when you take that third away with the, with the younger Anakin, the youngest Anakin, I think you're taking away like a third of his humanity,

[01:02:03] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:02:03] SHAWN: Cause he didn't have, he didn't have a face, he doesn't have eyes, for three movies except for that little bit there at the end of Return of the Jedi spoilers, you know, he doesn't have a human face.

And then he has Hayden Christians in's face for two movies. But then there's that whole, that, you're right, there's that whole movie where there's a face that you can't really relate to, and he's kind of a little bit of annoying and you don't really see a connection between that youngest Anakin and that, young adult Anakin.

There's, you don't, there, you don't see how this kid could go to this young adult. There's not really a bridge there. That makes sense.

[01:02:41] ALLIE: I found it really jarring.

[01:02:42] SHAWN: It, is

[01:02:43] ALLIE: Yeah. But also I found it really jarring because, I don't know if this was just like the culture or because, you know, obviously I'd seen two and three.

I know that Anakin and Padme get together, and so then watching one, I'm like, what, in the wor what the

fuck? That's so jar.

[01:03:03] JOSH: that makes that very uncomfortable viewing.

[01:03:06] ALLIE: it's not, they have any like, weird chemistry in the first one or anything that makes it like, oh, was she, you know, was she planning this all along? But it's still like the knowledge of it. You're like, I don't wanna, that I, I, that made me super uncomfortable because I was just like, he's a literal child in this movie and she's not, I mean, you know, she's.

She's young, but she's not a child.

[01:03:29] JOSH: She's supposed to be 14. She's supposed to be 14 in that, in that movie. Not that that really makes it any better, but, um, no, I mean that's true as well. And that's why, you know, the love story in the second one has so much heavy lifting to do because there was, there could not have been any, chemistry, in the first movie,

[01:03:48] ALLIE: Right.

[01:03:48] JOSH: one of the characters was his literal child.

[01:03:50] ALLIE: Right. Why did he make, I just, why did he make that choice?

That just seems very odd to me.

Like you could have made them a similar age and if they were both kids and like kind of, you know, like, oh, you know, and then as I grew up, like fell in, like that would make sense.

[01:04:05] JOSH: yeah, I mean, it would work. It would work. I mean, if you're gonna make Anakin a child, then make Padme at least played by a different, a different actor so that

[01:04:17] ALLIE: that was also jarring. Like you're like, she looks not that much older,

[01:04:21] JOSH: Yeah, she looks exactly the

[01:04:22] ALLIE: Anakin is literally a different actor and he's, you know, he's aged way faster or, you know, like

[01:04:31] SHAWN: The padme that we've seen in episode one is the same Padme that we get in episode two.

Right. The Anakin we get in episode one is not the Anakin we get and, and there's no connection there. Right.

[01:04:41] JOSH: No, no connection there whatsoever. Which is weird too, because the, the idea, at least on paper, is that Padme's supposed to be 14 in episode one and 24 in episode two

[01:04:51] ALLIE: that, doesn't.

[01:04:53] JOSH: and that just doesn't come across at all. She. I mean, like you said, she seems like she's exactly the same character from

[01:05:00] ALLIE: Yeah, because I think when we watched it, I was like, really? Like, wa this is like disturbing knowing that they get together and, and you were like, yeah, but she's supposed, she's like only supposed to be a teenager here. Like, you weren't like, oh no, this is great, but Right. You know, I, and like that doesn't read at all

[01:05:15] JOSH: Well, so, so this is

the thing,

[01:05:17] ALLIE: to be so much younger in

the in episode one.

[01:05:20] JOSH: the reason that George Lucas made him a child in episode one, he says is because he knew that a big reason for his fall was the attachment that he had to his mother. And when he loses his mother, he's, he's unable to let go of that attachment. And he thought that that would make more sense if he was taken away from his mother as a child versus as somebody slightly older.

I don't necessarily agree that that's true.

[01:05:49] ALLIE: But you could have done that a different way. You could have had like a, like, oh, that's the very beginning of the movie. And then, you know, you know, and then you

know, after, but still like the beginning ish to towards middle. Then you have like an older Anakin, like I just, yeah, focusing so much on this child for the whole movie, and then having this jump where it's just a, where like some.

You know, like Padme is the same essentially, but for Anakin, he's totally different. You know, he's grown up so much.

[01:06:19] SHAWN: I think a, some skilled flashbacks would've, yeah, would've done service enough to that. And having a younger actor in a flashback just makes sense.

[01:06:28] JOSH: we haven't really done flashbacks in Star Wars. It wasn't really in the vocabulary until, I guess, arguably The Last Jedi but, that's sort of later on. and even then, I think the flashbacks in Last Jedi are actually in keeping with the DNA of Star Wars because it's like, it's like kind of a Rashomon thing, uh, which is Akira Kurosawa, which is in the DNA of Star Wars.

Uh, that's a whole separate, a whole separate, uh,

[01:06:52] SHAWN: this. Okay.

[01:06:53] ALLIE: Thank you.

Yeah. You were saying a lot of words that I was like, I, I'm sure these

[01:06:57] SHAWN: are things that some of them were Japanese.

[01:07:00] JOSH: Sorry.

[01:07:00] SHAWN: that's

[01:07:01] ALLIE: fine. Shawn generally gets your references, so

[01:07:04] JOSH: I guess, I guess in the interest of starting to wrap up here, I'm wondering, watching the movies in that chronological marathon you had, , did your impressions of anything change or were you surprised by anything on this viewing?

[01:07:20] SHAWN: I think for me it just kind of solidified the, the problems that I perceive to be in, in one through three, so so seven to nine, I think for the most part, fall. Pretty much in line. I do have some issues, but we don't have time for those. But I for it, it, that feels more organic to me than the prequels do. And prob probably part of that is that it's easier to make sequels than it is to make prequels.

So, but the, I think the, like the scripting, the dialogue, I think the directing there, there's some really great actors in there and I feel like those are probably some of the worst performances that those actors give in their careers. that, and I, you know, that's an opinion, but we know that Natalie Portman is an incredible actress and even at that time, movies that she did around that she really turns in a performance and.

You know, uh, I, I think a little bit of like Mark Hamill, if you watch some of his old interviews, he talks about the dialogue and like some the things that he still remembers that kind of torture him a little bit. And I feel like we see that in episodes, uh, one through three. I w I found myself wanting episode three to go harder and darker

[01:08:38] JOSH: Interesting.

[01:08:38] SHAWN: than it did.

[01:08:40] JOSH: That was pretty dark. I mean, he kills kids.

[01:08:42] SHAWN: He kills kids. It's,

yes,

[01:08:45] JOSH: off

[01:08:45] SHAWN: it's lar it's largely off screen and it's implied and I think I'm okay with that, but I feel like even the reaction to that needs to be a little bit more like Visceral

[01:08:55] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah, yeah

[01:08:56] SHAWN: o Obi Wan's. I mean, it's kind of like a famous meme line now, when he is talking about the security footage and stuff, There's not enough there.

And I know the Jedi County is supposed to be removed and not emotional, but if anything's gonna make you emotional, it has to be your apprentice killing 30 kids on camera.

[01:09:15] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:09:16] SHAWN: You know what I mean? And Padme's reaction to that news needs to be more because she shouldn't have any kind of like training or like emotional barrier to that.

And I, I don't know, I think I think three needed to go at least a little bit darker and all of the political stuff needed to be like, punched up in a way that made people like want to watch it and make more sense.

[01:09:43] ALLIE: Yeah. I just, I just wish it. It was more cohesive.

Yeah, I definitely wish the political stuff made more sense, because the trade stuff could be super interesting if it was done well. Um, also, Anakin kills, I mean, I underst sort of understand the thing about his mother passing away, but then he, he kills innocent people and they're in episode two and I feel like no one, they're like, oh, that's not great, but they're not human, so, eh, and you're like, eh.

And that hit really hard after, um, I, we had watched Book of Boba Fett,

right? And like I said, episode I think two where

[01:10:21] JOSH: Yeah. The second episode.

[01:10:23] ALLIE: where they give. I'm really sorry that I'm blanking on their species name and I don't want to call them the Tusken Raiders. The Tusken Raiders. Yeah. I didn't want to, I mean, I can say it, but you know, I don't wanna refer to them as the Sand People.

[01:10:35] JOSH: Cuz it just seems like a, it just seems like a racial

slur. Yeah,

[01:10:40] ALLIE: Yeah. And so like that kinda stuff is, actually, is interesting, but also like upsetting, you know, watching, watching it now like , Episode two, he kills the Tusken Raiders and like even, you know, then you go back and watch the original trilogy and Luke is talking about the Sand People and you're just like, these fucking white people.

I don't know, I just.

[01:10:59] JOSH: Yeah, no, I mean, it's weird, like, um, and we talk about this on, um, our Episode Two pod and our Episode Three pod, so I won't rehash it in too much detail. But yeah, there's some, some unexamined, I think, racism , that is imported in service of paying homage to things that George Lucas was a fan of.

, that I think especially after that specific episode that you're referring to that does a lot to flush out the, the Tuskens and, make you see them more as, as people, um, is certainly much more problematic in light of that.

[01:11:34] ALLIE: There's also like, I feel like, Chewy in, um, And the original trilogy doesn't get his due. First of all, he doesn't get a medal. That's not okay.

[01:11:42] JOSH: Well that's one of the things that Rise of Skywalker we're all thankful that Rise of Skywalker swooped in at the very end to write that wrong.

[01:11:49] ALLIE: Um, and then, and Leia, Leia like talks down to him in a way that seems like, feels very racist also. I don't remember what she says,

[01:11:59] JOSH: somebody get this big walking carpet outta my way.

[01:12:01] ALLIE: Yes.

And you're just like, you're like, okay, in this universe, like aliens are kind of like different races. Like you don't, you know, and that just feels super shitty.

[01:12:13] SHAWN: I'd rather kiss a Wookiee. That's what, that's the one I was thinking. That

can

be arranged. Yeah.

[01:12:17] JOSH: yeah

[01:12:17] ALLIE: that's, that's the one I was thinking of. I'd rather kiss a Wookiee.

[01:12:20] JOSH: Oh yeah.

Well,

[01:12:21] ALLIE: Just like, come on Leia.

[01:12:25] JOSH: well, yeah. I mean, I think that's, I think that's interesting. I think it speaks to the levels of, you know, implicit sort of casual racism that was just, you know, cost of doing business in a way that is, uh, less, you know, I feel very similar about Star Trek. Whenever, Dr. McCoy makes fun of Spock's ears or his green blood or something, I'm like, you're being really racist.

You good old southern boy. You like, that's, it's, it's very, very uncomfortable and it's also uncomfortable how everyone just kind of laughs it off.

[01:12:55] SHAWN: First interracial kiss on American television, but you green blooded, mastered.

[01:13:02] JOSH: Yeah.

[01:13:02] ALLIE: there's, you know, sometimes it's done to like sort of point something out and I don't ever feel like in Star Wars it's done to be like, oh, isn't this horrible? I do. In episode two when he kills the Tusken Raiders.

I do think that's a little bit like, oh, here's a glimpse of, he has some darkness to him,

[01:13:20] JOSH: yes.

[01:13:21] ALLIE: but I don't think it's like, oh, he committed a hate crime. Like, I don't think that it went there,

[01:13:28] JOSH: No, no, no. It certainly didn't go there because he confesses his, his crime to padme who basically says, eh, we all make mistakes.

It's like, it's like, you know, the movie itself isn't

[01:13:40] ALLIE: Like if the mo, if the movie or series or whatever is like, is say, condemning it,

[01:13:46] JOSH: right,

[01:13:47] ALLIE: that's one thing, you know. But if

it's, if it's just uh, you know, this is fine. It's just how it is. Like that's, that's not great.

[01:13:55] JOSH: Oh. Which I will point out something that Hal 9000 fan edit of episode two does. That's really, a very elegant solution is he still has Anakin kill the Tuskens, but he cuts out the scene where he tells Padme about it. So then it just, becomes this thing that the audience now knows he's capable of, but nobody else knows.

And Padme

certainly doesn't know

[01:14:20] ALLIE: that, that works a lot better. That's, oh, that's awesome. Yeah.

[01:14:24] JOSH: Yeah. Um, so just to wrap up, so Shawn, so it sounds like for you it just kind of reaffirmed the, the issues that you had originally. and Ali, uh, it seems like in a lot of ways, like this was the first time you were really watching them,

you know, with, you know, with a critical eye.

[01:14:41] ALLIE: It, yeah. Definitely.

[01:14:42] JOSH: Shawn, that, Actually leads me to believe, I know we're going over time here, but, um, that leads me to wonder, like, why didn't you, what, what was your thinking behind the chronological showing of the movies? Like, you could have left out the prequels, you could have shown the originals first. You could have like done the machete order or something. , which I've always been very curious about how that would play.

[01:15:05] SHAWN: Um, I, well, I didn't, I didn't really know about the, the machete or I think I've heard it referred as the butcher order. I didn't really know about that. And then when I learned about it, my understanding was the main purpose of that was to, uh, preserve the twists in Empire Strikes back.

[01:15:23] JOSH: Well, I think it does a little more than that. I think it, I think it makes it more about Luke. Like Luke is still the main character. Right. Like, because then it does two things. So, so basically for anyone who doesn't, who isn't familiar with the machete order, like the machete order is you basically exclude Phantom Menace.

So you can watch it if you want, but you watch Star Wars, which is episode four, follow it up with the Empire Strikes Back episode five. once you learn that Darth Vader is actually Anakin Skywalker, you go back, you watch episode two, Attack of the Clones next, and then episode three, Revenge of the Sith, and then you watch Return to The Jedi.

So so what, what happens at the end there too is it does something really interesting where you just saw how Anakin chose, how he, how he becomes Vader and you find out about the twins and then you see the resolution and. The next movie. So you see the confrontation between the father and the son.

There's a lot of mirroring in episode three. In episode six, like the whole, Dulan, the Throne Room is very similar. Uh, you know, in episode three where he kills, uh, count Duku in front of, Palpetine, which is ostensibly what Palpetine is trying to get Luke to do in Return of the Jedi.

He's, he's trying to get him to kill Vader and take his place. yes, it preserves the twists, but it's also, it kind of does something interesting at the end where it like actually kind of heightens the stakes of Return to the Jedi by more closely linking it to Revenge of the Sith.

[01:16:55] SHAWN: Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah, it, I don't know, it might have just been like laziness. It, it seemed chronological order seems like the order that to watch it in, and I think with Allie really loving Rogue One.

[01:17:11] ALLIE: Yeah. Rogue One's my favorite.

[01:17:13] JOSH: yeah. Okay. Rug one is up there. It's is quite

[01:17:17] SHAWN: Shawn, love it. I, yeah. That, that's a, that's a discussion for maybe another podcast, but I don't dislike it. I just, I I have some complaints.

[01:17:27] JOSH: well, I would love to hear those complaints on the Rogue Wine episode that we will inevitably do.

[01:17:32] SHAWN: Yeah. By Shawn.

[01:17:34] JOSH: any, closing thoughts?

Shawn, uh, just cause I'm dying of curiosity. do you happen to recall where the flip over was in the laser disks of A New Hope and the empire strikes back?

Like what scene? Because I bet you remember exactly where it was.

[01:17:52] SHAWN: you know, I have been really racking my brain for like the last week trying to remember where it is, and I haven't wanted to look it up and I haven't, my memory's super terrible for some reason right now on the spot, when you ask me, I think it's in the trash compactor,

[01:18:10] JOSH: Hmm.

[01:18:11] SHAWN: but I'm not, I'm not 100% sure, like, I think it might be right when they come out of the trash compactor,

[01:18:19] JOSH: Mm.

[01:18:20] SHAWN: but I don't know if that makes sense, like movie length wise.

[01:18:24] JOSH: No, well, well, because it doesn't have to be exactly halfway, it just has to be at a natural place where it, like, it like wouldn't feel like you're stopping in the middle of something.

So that actually seems like a natural place for it.

[01:18:35] SHAWN: that's, I feel like I'm probably wrong, but gut instinct when they come out of the trash compactor,

[01:18:42] JOSH: Okay. Well, um, I'm gonna go look it up and I'll include that in the show notes. well, on that note, thanks so much for, uh, for having this conversation with me guys. It was a fun one. I didn't know exactly where it would go, but I think, I think we said a lot of interesting stuff. So thank you for,

[01:18:56] SHAWN: Thank you for having us.

[01:18:57] JOSH: And if you liked what you heard, please visit trash pod.com where you can find transcripts of this episode and all of our other episodes.

If you have any thoughts, comments, or critiques, well you can keep the critiques yourself. Uh, but if you have any thoughts or comments, please send us an email@trashpodgmail.com. We are trash Pod across all social media, and we will see you on the next one.