MARCIA MARCIA MARCIA: The Legacy of Marcia Lucas (with @TalkingBay94)

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, and if you haven't figured it out by now, we here at Trash Compactor are just as interested, maybe sometimes even more so in the behind the scenes stories of how Star Wars came to be and why it is the way it is as much as the content of the movies themselves. And I'm joined today by a special guest who is also a Star Wars behind the scenes nerd — I hope he'll forgive me for using the term — to discuss one of the most fascinating figures in the making of Star Wars, Marcia Lucas. He hosts my favorite Star Wars podcast, Talking Bay 94, which is devoted to interviews with the cast, crew, and creators from a galaxy far, far away, where he takes a weekly deep dive into some never before heard stories from the set and Skywalker Ranch, from background aliens to some of the biggest stars in the universe. I am so pleased to welcome Brandon Wainerdi to Trash Compactor. Hello, Brandon.

[00:00:54] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Hello. Thank you so much for having me and also those very kind words. Very unnecessary, but thank you.

[00:01:00] JOSH: I mean, I'm not just blowing smoke. Talking Bay 94 is my favorite Star Wars podcast. I think you do a phenomenal job over there. Like some of the conversations that you've had, like I literally – uou know, as I'm sure you can relate, you think you've read all the things and heard all the things, and seen all the interviews and all the making ofs, and then whenever you come across a story or a point of view about the making of these movies that you've never heard before. It's kind of like, whoa. Like where, how did, how did I not know that? And so many times when I'm listening to you interview one of your guests on one of your episodes, I'll get like a nugget, a window and insight that I'd never heard before. So, I quickly became very addicted to Talking Bay 94. And so just so thank you for, the work that you do and all your contributions to Star Wars lore.

[00:01:45] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I appreciate that. Thank you. Uh, thank you for those kind of words. Yeah. It's, um, it's been a, a trip cuz I, I watched and I've always been watching those same documentaries and reading the same books that you were mentioning. And so being able to talk to so many of the people that are referenced in there or that are, you know, major parts of those, of those books is just like, is a real dream come true.

[00:02:07] And so, I always have to pinch myself that then also people listen to my stuff, and I'm able to tell some of their stories that might not have been told before.

[00:02:17] JOSH: No, absolutely. So yeah, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to have you be the one that I have this discussion about Marcia Lucas with. For any listeners who aren't unaware, Marcia Lucas was the wife of George Lucas. She was a film editor in her own writing and she, contributed a lot to the creative decisions behind the scenes. Of the original Star Wars trilogy and also, American Graffiti and, George Lucas's other films. And, since their divorce in 1983, she has, you know, stayed out of the public eye and, for reasons that are probably understandable, has never really, , factored in much in terms of the official making of materials. And, it's not until I think the last few years really where, , you know, a lot of people kind of realize that there's a Marcia Lucas sized hole in , the story of the making of these films. And that combined with her sort of reemergence in the public, she gave her first, I think on camera sit down interview for that Vice documentary series that came out around the same time as Light & Magic, I believe. When did you first become aware of Marcia Lucas and the role that she played in the making of the original trilogy?

[00:03:33] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah, for sure. I think the biggest mention of her in any like catalog of, of Star Wars behind the scenes stories comes from the skywalk biography by Dale Pollock, um, which was written during a time when George and Marcia are still together. So Dave Pollock goes to Skywalker Ranch, hangs out with George Lucas for a very long time, and is also hanging out with Marcia that entire time as well.

[00:03:58] And it's during the fraying of their marriage, which is an interesting perspective during all of these conversations. But she is a major presence in all. The stories and all of the conversation and how that book is put put together. Uh, which makes it an invaluable like bird's eye point of view resource, cause it really is kind of maybe the most unfettered version of it all that we have.

[00:04:22] Of course, once you see that, once I saw that, I kind of then went further in. She's mentioned briefly in Empire of Dreams a little bit. There's always that famous photo of her and George on the editing bay. Um, the Rinzler book does a little bit, um, to talk about her. Um, but since those Rensler books were so closely worked on with Lucas, right, JW Rinzler amazing, incredible, uh, the most important figure and behind the scenes, Star Wars.

[00:04:49] Um, but. Since Lucas was, was so tied to those, there were not a lot of mentions of Marcia. And then it became a little bit of an interesting revisionist history in a good way. Uh, over the past, like you were mentioning about decade or so, uh, that Marcia and her involvement has really come into play. Um, and her slowly coming back into the spotlight after the Disney sale has been very interesting.

[00:05:16] Um, as you mentioned most recently, there was that icons on Earth documentary, which I watched, um, which we can talk about. You can talk about it here. I was not a fan of it. Um, and how it was put

[00:05:30] JOSH: No, I mean, the Vice, series, very much has a specific narrative that it is pushing.

[00:05:36] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yes.

[00:05:37] JOSH: Which is also like, you know, very much like the Vice way. It's like, "here's the real story that they're not telling you."

[00:05:42] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Sure. It, it was, it was, um, what's the word? It was unfortunate for that filmmaker, filmmaker, in quotes, uh, that his, his documentary came out at the same time as Light & Magic, which was potentially one of the greatest behind the scenes. You know, things in a, a long time. Uh, and it, the fact that they were coming out at the same exact time, uh, was an interesting choice.

[00:06:04] Uh, but before that, she had spoken at that academy, , presentation, which I flew. I heard that she was gonna be there. It was right before the pandemic. And so I flew out to la I live in Texas. I flew out to LA for one night. And went to that just to see her talk, which is I, you know, Ben Burtt was there.

[00:06:19] John Knoll was there. John Dykstra was there. It was them inducting the Dykstraflex into the Academy. It was an incredible, incredible night. Incredible night. And so she was there and. She was actually supposed to make a second appearance, um, at usc, uh, that I had tickets for that I was gonna fly back out for again, just to talk to a smaller group, just, uh, a night with Marcia Lucas.

[00:06:38] And that was literally, I think it was, it was later for like April, 2020 and that got canceled and then never, and then never happened, obviously. Um, besides that, she's made a couple small appearances at the. Anniversary celebrations of both Star Wars and Empire, uh, which they have out at, it's called 30 10 Studios, which is where the original ILM was, where the original Kerner Optical, um, studio was.

[00:07:00] And so you'll see some pictures of a lot of the, you know, Phil Tippett and everyone all getting together, um, and having this party that I am very jealous of. Uh, but Marcia will always go, cuz she was, she was there kind of, um, She was like the mother of, ILM the mother of Lucasfilm, right. She was the one that was putting together all the parties, all the Thanksgivings, all that stuff.

[00:07:19] And so she goes to those. George does not go to those, and it's an opportunity for everyone to like see her again, which is very interesting. And so there's a couple videos of her being interviewed at some of those events as well. Um, and then that's pretty much it. She also, the, the, the major one though recently, I don't know if you had a chance to, to read it, is the Howard Kazanjian biography.

[00:07:40] Um, Which is a real, uh, it's JW Rinzler's last book. I think he might have a shining book still to come out. Um, but it's his

[00:07:49] JOSH: yeah, that's right. He passed away last year, I believe.

[00:07:52] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:07:53] JOSH: You, by the way, have a phenomenal interview with him.

[00:07:55] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Thank you. Thank you.

[00:07:57] JOSH: It's so wonderful that, there are conversations with him that exist for posterity, because he died, far too young.

[00:08:04] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah, he is. He is probably, probably my greatest inspiration, but also, like you were saying, just an incredible man and and resource. And I was very lucky to get to talk to him a couple times, but then especially that was very early on in the podcast and really kind of cemented how I interview and how I talk to people.

[00:08:20] But in that book, Howard is the one that was like, If we're doing this story, I would love Marcia to tell some parts of it cuz she was there for so much of it and so she agreed to really come out of retirement and like talk about Star Wars publicly. Um, for the first time since, since Jedi ended. Uh, and so that book came out.

[00:08:40] I got a early copy of it and I read it very quickly and it was, it was wonderful and her parts were very good, especially during the making of everything, cuz it was really a really good perspective of what George was saying, what George was thinking, what she was saying and thinking when these movies were blowing up.

[00:08:57] Uh, and then of course, you know, read it and the YouTube channels and stuff picked up, which she said at the end of the book, Which is all about the sequel and prequel trilogies and how she feels about those, which she is very much entitled to our opinion. We don't have the same opinions about stuff, but it's very interesting her going to see, let's say The Phantom Menace, which is directed by her ex-husband, edited by her friend Ben Burtt.

[00:09:20] Right? And a story that she's very familiar with. Uh, and so she was very negative towards the Pral trilogy, very negative towards the sequel trilogy, um, which is again, very understandable if you're that close to something at its inception. But was an interesting kind of, um, period, uh, to, to, to put on on her statements.

[00:09:40] So again, I'm very glad that her story's been told. I think that's the closest we'll ever get to like an official Marcia Lucas biography. Um, hopefully I'm proven wrong, but that's my, my thought for now. . Um, and it was a very interesting way to get it. So that's kind of the current Marsh Lucas communications history.

[00:09:58] Um, but all of that paints a very vivid picture of someone who's very, very talented and then who was kind of stunned away for, for a while. Um, and now, oh, I'm glad, is being able to tell her story and her perspectives.

[00:10:11] JOSH: Let's talk a little about Marcia Lucas' specific creative contributions to Star Wars. So she was not originally slated to work on Star Wars, beyond, just sort of being the proverbial supportive spouse, despite, being an editor in her own right and having previously helped George Lucas's previous film American Graffiti.

[00:10:28] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah. It was initially, well first it wasn't even gonna be, we know of course of Paul Hirsch and, and Richard Chew, but it was going to be. I think his name was like John, John Jimson, a British just union editor. Like, you know, Right. That was very much just like the, the day in, day out, just, uh, tradesmen. But then that obviously rough cut was terrible. So they brought it to the United States and it was going to be Richard Chew and Paul Hirsch, and then she came in. and helped, especially with that last final act.

[00:11:03] JOSH: So let's get into that because, yeah, like you said, the original editor, the British editor, not only did he sort of have a very classical, straightforward sense of, how to cut a movie, but he also, didn't really get the film and it seemed like he was really playing up the goofiness of it rather than treating it with a finer touch that, that, It's supposed to be dramatic, and he, he just, made some very wrong decisions.

[00:11:28] So, um, to put it lightly, but, um, um, if you could discuss a little bit is, like you said, um, Marcia's, the bulk of her work was, really on the ending of the movie, the end battle over the Death Star, if you could, if you could talk about why that was and what her changes were, her, her innovations that

[00:11:45] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Well, it even goes beyond I, I, I think Death Star is the best way to frame what she was doing. Cuz I mean, obviously before they came back to the United States, she was responsible to story. Very famous now of her, um, convincing George to kill. Ben Kenobi, Right?

[00:12:02] JOSH: Oh, right. Yes. Right.

[00:12:03] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): kind of the, And initially it was, it wasn't even like you should kill Ben Kenobi.

[00:12:08] It was someone needs to die, someone needs to be in peril cuz otherwise they just escape the death star with little, little to no, you know, effort. And so first I think she said shoot three P and he did not like that because he loved the idea of the droids being kind of the bookends of the movie, which makes complete. Um, and so then it was Ben Kenobi and of course talking to Al Guinness about all that, a whole other thing. Uh, so when they came back to the States, then she had a few other things, some humor. I think she's been described as like the heart of Star Wars, right? So any, any time there was a little bit of, of humor or anything, George was always very ready to cut it out and she was always there to say no.

[00:12:51] Like, leave that in. Let's let it breathe, let's let it have, um, some joy. Um, I think the mouse droid is one of her.

[00:12:59] JOSH: yes. , The mouse droid in particular. I know, the running up and Juba's scaring it and it sort of runs away scared. Like, like I remember I've heard that anecdote that, that , she fought to keep that in. hearing you say that is actually really funny.

[00:13:10] because, you know, one of the charges leveled at George Lucas is like quirky sense of humor. that's the quote unquote problem that a lot of fans have, with some of his films. But, what you're saying is that, Marcia in this instance was the one who was like, No, we need the lighter moments and keep those funny moments.

[00:13:30] And George was the one who was actually resisting it. So that's

[00:13:33] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): mean, Yeah. I mean, if you think about one of their biggest points of at least filmmaking contention is THX where it was so. Dark and dry and impersonal, that film and for good reason. I think that's one of the main purposes of that film. But it does not have that much humor or, you know, it's very, very somber and she really did not enjoy that.

[00:13:55] And it obviously that that's a part of Lucas. Um, and then American graffiti obviously balances that very well, almost skews more you would almost classified as a comedy. Um, and so this, I think he was going back towards the TX. But without realizing how much of the, the success of American Graffiti came from, the humor came from the warmth.

[00:14:15] Came from the joy.

[00:14:16] JOSH: Well, so cuz it's also interesting because , Star Wars is like the hybrid of. THX and, and American Graffiti. It's like if you put THX 1138 and American Graffiti in a blender, or if they spawned a child, like it would be Star Wars.

[00:14:29] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Right,

[00:14:30] JOSH: But that is interesting. Like a part of me wonders, you know, if like, he was also resistant because it was such a, I think he was potentially afraid of not being taken seriously,

[00:14:41] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah. It's also just an interesting, like him world building for this movie and he, I mean, even those early drafts of Star Wars, we view them as early drafts, but you, you approach them as something that he wrote maybe. A year or two years before he was filming, right? Like the turnaround time of some of those early drafts to the final product is actually a very short amount of time.

[00:15:02] And some of those early drafts are so more leaning towards the THX 1138 side of things, Right. Are so, um, inaccessible are so, I mean, I, I think they're wonderful, but they're not, they would not have been as as well received by a general audience. And so you get to a point with the filmed Star War. And you have, you have 90% of it, but like he is still working through those thoughts and those drafts.

[00:15:28] And it isn't until you get to Empire into Jedi when you actually have the actors and they feel comfortable in their skin. You have Harrison Ford, you, you have these characters that are not just, you know, sketches and not just drafts, and then he's able to kind of build from. But you also think about the, the prequel trilogy.

[00:15:47] They're goofy. There's goofy elements, but it maybe doesn't necessarily have the same amount of, of character charm. I think there's a lot of charm in the movies, but like,

[00:15:57] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. Sort of that like, Yes, yes.

[00:15:59] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): so anyway, uh, all that to be said, she, she, she helps with that aspect of it. And then the actual editing process as, as you were kind of ending out, like the death star battle itself, that third act, I believe there was only two passe.

[00:16:12] At the Death Star in the initial element, and she adds the third pass and she adds the ticking clock, right? She adds the, um, the Death Star is in range sort of thing, right? Adds that extra element. Um, and adds the third pass. And really, uh, if you watch the movie, she doesn't reuse shots, reuse shots, but they had to like carefully reedit that movie and slot in things that were.

[00:16:40] Ready to go, um, in order for that to really work, which is, which is really masterful

[00:16:46] JOSH: No, totally. Like if you watch that sequence with this knowledge in mind, you realize that it's just, shots of, Leia. Looking worried and 3P0 looking worried and, uh, and Peter Cushing looking vaguely concerned. and the, uh, the voiceover of the countdown and the graphic of the countdown saying they're approaching Gavin and, within range and all that stuff. And they actually reuse the firing sequence from the destruction of Alderaan to totally create this whole sequence that, was not conceived of in the script was not shot that way, was not like, so that is really a creation of Marcia Lucas and it's, it's crazy to, to imagine.

[00:17:28] that sequence without any of that stuff.

[00:17:31] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah, for sure. It, it is again, uh, really showcasing all of her chops, right? She was not able, I mean, what she was able to do with those scraps is really incredible. Right. Um, and that carries through. Uh, the Raiders example is, obviously she's an edit Raiders, but. the final scene or like convincing 'em to add the final scene with Marion cuz otherwise

[00:17:57] Marion would not have had a conclusion.

[00:17:59] JOSH: Right? She, she asked. So what happened to Marion? Right. It's like, and then and then it's sort of like, Yeah. You know, the only woman in the room is like, So what happened to the, So what happened to the woman? Right. . And it's kind of like, oh yeah, I guess we should add a scene. Um, , um, So I just wanna clarify one thing. You said that there were two runs on the trench and she added a third. I thought that there were four. Like, So

[00:18:23] Luke? Yeah, so Luke made one run and was unsuccessful. He used the targeting computer and he missed the shot, and then he took a fourth run where he decided to shut the computer off.

[00:18:35] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): So I kind of like the four, the four rounds almost make more sense, but I just haven't seen that as, as much as I would, I would.

[00:18:43] I don't know if you ever, have you ever read the Secret History of Star Wars? That's like, Yeah, that's, that, that's where I saw the two and I'm, I'm trying to find that right now. Yeah, the two's in there. Um,

[00:18:54] JOSH: So, I believe where I'm getting mine from, I think was from Marcia Lucas' mouth from the Vice

[00:19:02] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): From the vice.

[00:19:04] JOSH: Yeah. So, so that's what she said.

[00:19:08] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): interesting. I like that. Um, I can talk about Return to The Jedi really quickly. There's not like that much

[00:19:14] Because really with, with Jedi and with Marcia, again, it's Dwayne Dunham and Sean Barton Burton, um, are the editors for that. And she comes in to really help with the third act.

[00:19:25] And this is while they're like either about to get divorced or in the middle of kind of like this whole upheaval. And so things are very tense, but she comes in to help, especially with the emotional beats, is what I've always heard. I think Luke has described it as like the.

[00:19:39] JOSH: The crying and dying

[00:19:40] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): The crying and dying scenes.

[00:19:42] Yeah. And so it's all the emotional stuff of that third act, which is a, a big part of it. It's the, um, Luke Invader and finding out that Leia's, his daughter, that whole element I've always associated with Marcia. Um, but again, like it's not necessarily like building it up from scratch. It was more that was such a complicated end, almost even more so than the trench run.

[00:20:03] Right. Cuz you're cutting between.

[00:20:06] JOSH: Three massive

[00:20:07] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): battle on Endor and the Death Star, which is crazy. And so I think she just kind of came in to lend a helping hand through all of that. Um, and then, you know, and then she is no longer a part of it after that.

[00:20:20] JOSH: Um, something else that she, said, that I had never heard. again from the Vice documentary. Obviously there's that very famous disastrous first screening that, they had , for all of their friends. And, Brian DePalma in particular, he kind of tore into George Lucas and like really thought he was about to tank his career and like he was just laying into him.

[00:20:41] Like even when they went out to dinner afterwards, he was just like really laying it on. And one of the things that he said that. Marcia said, he said was, What is with this Force shit. Like, I don't even understand

[00:20:53] what it is. Like you gotta get rid of that. And , Marcia says in the documentary, the next, cut, she saw George had, taken out

[00:21:02] many of the references to the Force, a lot of them may the Force, be with yous and stuff like to downplay that element. And according to her, from what she said, know, within the last year on camera, she told George, No, you have to put that stuff back in there.

[00:21:15] That's what this movie is about you need the Force. Forget what Brian says, like he's, he's wrong on this one. Like, you, you need to, you need to keep that stuff, which I have never heard anywhere.

[00:21:27] But knowing how down Brian DePalma was on the movie. that kind of struck me as having a ring of truth to it.

[00:21:35] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): for sure. And also it falls in line with what Marcia has said about like the May the force be with you being a little bit tied. To her religious beliefs growing up as well is kind of like, it was like that spirituality aspect of it all she felt very comfortable with and I don't think she, like, she didn't claim the phrase, made the force be with you, you know, but like, it kind of went hand in hand with it all.

[00:22:02] So that would make sense. Um, and it would also track with what we've heard about how Brian DePalma felt about,

[00:22:08] JOSH: Yes, totally

[00:22:09] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): yeah.

[00:22:10] JOSH: But, um, I do want to talk about the Vice documentary for a second, because same as you. took issue with the framing and the very clear sort of, narrative agenda that it had in mind.

[00:22:23] It seemed like it, like had a specific perspective that it was trying to sell. But that aside, the on-camera stuff with Marcia Lucas and even some others like, Howard Kazanjian and stuff, like having these people say these very frank things on, video. I thought there was a lot of value in just seeing Marcia say certain things in her own words, like things, frankly, I never we would ever know or, hear her say. and I mean, again, like a lot of the animosity or the opinion she has regarding the prequel trilogy and the sequels is, is totally understandable. but like, hearing her say that after she saw The Phantom Menace she went out and cried in her, in her car, in the parking lot, like. I'm not really crescendoing to a point here. It's just sort of never, I just never, I was really shocked, to hear and see some of those. insights from her that, again, as a figure who has not, been sort of part of the Star Wars story for such a long time to all of a sudden, see these candid moments with her, I thought was really, very emotional.

[00:23:30] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah, it is. I think emotional is a good word, just in general for, for the Marcia appreciation, and I think you were balancing it a little bit with how you were talking. Because I have such deep appreciation for George and such deep respect for everything he, he did, and, and that entire team is, is so vital to the success of each of those movies.

[00:23:54] Each of those movies is, is a miracle movie of those first six Star Wars and various capacities. And I think it's very easy to have a, a non nuanced conversation about Star Wars, I think as, as, as evidenced by um, many YouTube channels and many Twitter accounts. Right? And I think. Coming to Star Wars with an open mind and an open heart and an open realization that it was made by people and it was made by humans, and it was made by people that are flawed and that have opinions, that have, I think, makes it almost a more powerful story and a more powerful piece of filmmaking, a piece of media that we've all latched onto in a variety of ways.

[00:24:32] And I think taking, let's say the original Star Wars, for example, and the idea that you were floating that some people would say like, Oh, like George Lucas isn't. Anything. The only reason that it was successful is because of this person, this person, this person. I would. to an extent. Um, obviously George is a very, an experienced filmmaker during Star Wars.

[00:24:53] He has a ton of ideas that are just like overflowing. Uh, and then he gets to England, he gets to Tunisia and experiences, you know, more stress than he's ever had in his entire life. And he comes back and Ireland has never finished a shot. And you're like, Okay, well what are we doing here? . And I think you look at that original Star Wars and you look at people like Ralph McCoy, like John Williams, like Ben Burt, like Dykstra, like Edlin, like Dennis Muren and like Marcia and all of them with George in this like symphony working together, discordant at times.

[00:25:26] Sure. But in the end, creating a product that has literally stood the test of time, um, goes a lot further than saying, Oh yeah, George Lucas. Would've made a terrible movie without Marciall Lucas. Um, because probably, probably Star Wars would not have had the same impact if we didn't have the second run on the Death Star.

[00:25:46] You know, if we didn't have Kenobi dying, you know, all these things that Marcia impacted, if you took all the impacts you took out of it, um, you're left with probably a very compelling sci-fi movie and probably one that we would still be like, that was a really great movie and I bet we've gotten a couple sequels from it, but maybe it wouldn't have been what we have today.

[00:26:02] Who knows? Who really knows. Um, but Marcia's involvement is so tied in with Star Wars. It's kind of like the heart of Star Wars and something that we love and I don't think is necessarily not present if she doesn't, um, isn't there cuz saying that she's the heart of Star Wars implies that George doesn't necessarily have a heart.

[00:26:22] Right. Uh, but I think, cuz I think George intrinsically is a humanist Right. And is intrinsically like, here's who people are. But maybe he's not the best at expressing that. Right. He, he, he wants everyone to have that same. Um, reaction that he does without necessarily like realizing that other people have different life experiences he does, or, you know, whatever it might be.

[00:26:44] And I think a good example of that is Thx, uh, movie that Marcia did not like a movie that I really like, but it is a very cold movie. It is a very, you know, like compared to a Star Wars, I could see a world worthy original Star Wars. Is a thx with bigger cast and more special effects and a little bit more of a hero's journey.

[00:27:06] Um, but still not the, the heart that we come to for Star Wars. Um, and I think that's kind of the, the key with Marcia and I think, you know, there's a discussion of like, did George lose that when he hit the prequels and he didn't have Marcia and like blah blah. The quote unquote is if people listening can't see me, The people that are like, Oh, Lucas had only yes men around him, and that's why the prequels suck.

[00:27:30] And I'm like, I don't know, like. I think, I think the biggest flaws of Star Wars are present in, in the prequels, and I think the biggest successes are present in the prequels. I think it's all, it's all very, um, uh, relative to how you experience things. Um, I'm sure, I'm sure her presence is very much missed in, in terms of that editing, but I think you have people, again, like, like Ben Burt, literally learning how to edit and becoming the editor of, of attack of the clones, or says as, as they make stuff up and how, how to do digital editing with the edit, Dr.

[00:27:59] Um, so again, it's all very relative and it's not black and white, which is why I think this conversation is so, um, invigorating and so interesting to talk through. Cuz we still don't know everything about, about what happened behind closed doors, but we can at least use it to add to our appreciation of these of these movies.

[00:28:16] JOSH: No, absolutely. And not only that, , like even if , we did know everything, I think it would still be sort of a question like, well, like who's, who's really responsible for what? Because, you know, the filmmaking process is so collaborative and ideas are so, sort of intangible like, like it's an interesting counterfactual.

[00:28:36] Without Marcia Lucas, what would the original Star Wars have been? Like? We don't know what solutions, what other ideas, been arrived at without her presence. So we can't really say exactly what it's like. You can't really separate it. It's like a hard. Sort of a question to even like, what is the value of the question in the first place?

[00:28:55] It's like, will it, it, it like would've been something else and we don't know what it would've been. Right?

[00:29:00] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah. What is the value of that? Who care? Like, I guess, I guess we're getting to a point with Star Wars, you know, we're 45 years on now at this point, right? It's just like we might have run out of things to talk about in a sense, in a, in a, in a layman sense. Cause I think, I think we see this all the time.

[00:29:15] I don't know if, if you ever saw, I'm a Star Wars fan, I always get the same five. Things from people where it's like, oh, like the Darth Jar Jar theory, or like the prequel si you know, like there's, there's like, there are like five things that people say. They're like, Oh, I love Star Wars. Have you seen this? Have you seen this meme?

[00:29:32] Have you heard about, you know, Kathleen Kennedy being fired? Like, it's all these like weird behind the scenes lore aspects that aren't necessarily true or real, but it's like what people gravitate towards. Cuz like we've almost run out of truth. We've like run out of the elements of Star Wars,

[00:29:46] to pour over from a, from a layman's perspective, I think you can really dive in. I think there's still a ton of props. We don't know the lineage of, Right. We don't know how they built X, Y, or Z. Right. Which is so interesting and so crazy.

[00:29:58] Right. Or we don't know, you know, the, the aspects of the original cut or like anything like that. But like we've gotten to a point with Star Wars where it is probably the thing, in movie history that has the most behind the scenes content for it, right? The most behind the scenes books and, and shorts and specials.

[00:30:16] And also what I mean, Lucas, even more so than being an influence filmmaker, really pioneered like the importance of behind the scenes documentaries and books and story board books and, and whatever it was. Cuz he knew how important that was and wanted that carry through. And you see that later on when he just has film crews doing.

[00:30:35] You know, Phan and everything like that. Um, and so we've gotten to a point where we've seen so much, and now every time, like Star wars.com publishes something and I see like a one second clip from behind the scenes, you know, shot in at Elstree and I'm like, Oh, we haven't seen that before. Like, stuff exists that we haven't seen, but like how much will it

[00:30:52] add to the tapestry?

[00:30:53] Yeah.

[00:30:54] JOSH: So wanna qualify what I'm about to say by acknowledging that you and I are speaking about the experience of a woman from the perspective of two cisgendered men.

[00:31:06] Um, or actually, I, apologize. I shouldn't assume that you are

[00:31:10] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): You have assu. You assumed correctly. You assumed correctly.

[00:31:13] JOSH: I just feel like you've shared enough like childhood photos that it was a assumption. Okay. Sorry.

[00:31:18] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah, You assumed correctly.

[00:31:20] JOSH: Um, but so, yeah, so we're, so we're two men and we're talking about the experience of a woman.

[00:31:24] So I just wanna acknowledge that. but how much of this, this erasure, well, I guess erasure at worst and kind of, overlooking at best, how much of Marcia's absence from the story of Star Wars, do you think has to do with sexism with the fact that,

[00:31:43] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah,

[00:31:44] JOSH: uh,

[00:31:44] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I think, I mean, it's interesting to me because even while they were together, Right. It wasn't as if as soon as they got divorced, she was erased from the archives or she was erased from all the speaking. Cuz like I mean, she went to the Academy Award and she's in that one photo and like she goes to award shows with him.

[00:32:06] But really the only. Period time that we see is in that Skywalking Dave Pollup book, right? It's when she's ever really, really mentioned for being this incredible editor and like someone that has worked on some of the best ways of all time before Star Wars and has her own career and is her own person. We don't, at least now looking through all these documents, we don't have that much, um, from that time, which leads me to believe.

[00:32:33] That. Yes. I think a lot of it was George hurting and George wanting to separate himself from it and wanting to begin the story. And we we're talking a little bit about like how he always has mythologized himself, right? But like he wanted, I don't think he wanted like take credit credit, but I think there was an amount of mythologizing happening around the creation of Star Wars from the first movie, right?

[00:32:56] I mean, like you have a making of Star Wars book, you have the art of books, you have. Um, blueprint books. Like he was very on top of creating behind the scenes footage for that movie, which is rare for movies like that at that point in time. And she was not present in a lot of that, right? Like, she was not there.

[00:33:15] Like, we did not have the trench run story in any of those 70 to 80 books, right? Otherwise you would think that that would be in there. You'd think that that'd be a story that's like, Oh, my wife helped me with this movie. Here's what she brought to the table, right? Like, I don't know, it seems like something that.

[00:33:30] Cross my mind if my wife was helping with a movie. Um, and so that's one element of it. And I think the second element of it is someone that is separated and someone that is divorced and getting cheated on. I think then he really reacted incredibly poorly. But also like you understand his mindset where you're just like, I'm just gonna never think about her or talk about her again and, and let her take none of the credit.

[00:33:52] Like it's not her, her.

[00:33:54] JOSH: No. Totally. But, the other thing about, like, when I say her, her erasure, it's beyond just, from her contributions to Star Wars, like she was an accomplished editor in her own right. She edited, a bunch of movies for Martin Scorsese.

[00:34:07] like you mentioned, she was, she was the reason why, Scorsese hired, Paul Hirsch, She edited, New York, New York at Martin Scorsese's request. like, it has to do with the dynamics of the divorce and like, who, gets whose friends

[00:34:22] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Because he got all the friends right. And that really hurt her, that that's been something that she's been very public about, is like they would go to the same stuff they. Hang out with the same people, right? They have the same group of friends, but all the friends, I don't know whether they decided to go with George or it was naturally just like we, we want to hang out with George.

[00:34:40] But like she, she did not have any friends after that.

[00:34:42] JOSH: Well, yeah. Well, so that's sort of what I'm getting at here. Like this idea that, in the 70s and 80s And I mean things have improved but not as much as I think people would like to think, but like Hollywood was a boy's club especially, especially the New Hollywood of the 70s.

[00:34:56] Like, I just think there was no conscious exclusion. But I think it was, it was out of sexism. It's like, well, well, obviously, like we're friends with George and like, I mean, this is our club. It's too bad that we can't see Marcia anymore. Right. It's like, is sort of my sense of it.

[00:35:14] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Right.

[00:35:15] JOSH: Why didn't Marcia Lucas ever cut another movie for Scorsese again? It's hard to untangle. like I know that one of the points of contention between her and George was that she really, it's like, Okay, we've had all this success.

[00:35:27] We have all this money. Now let's have a family and let's have a life and enjoy ourselves a little bit.

[00:35:33] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Right, and he couldn't.

[00:35:35] JOSH: yeah, I mean, that's not really him. And that was, you know, sort of the, flaw in the design of the Death Star that ultimately led to, blowing up.

[00:35:43] I'm, I mangled that analogy, but you get

[00:35:45] what I'm saying. It was, it was the fatal flaw, like it was the small exhaust port right below the main port that, blew up their marriage.

[00:35:51] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): You're right.

[00:35:52] Crazy.

[00:35:54] JOSH: I might have to cut to that. That's

[00:35:55] rather

[00:35:55] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I think that was good. I think it was

[00:35:56] JOSH: Okay. I appreciate that.

[00:35:59] One other thing, that I just feel compelled to mention is that, you mentioned, you know, Marcia cheated on George with the man who she eventually married after she divorced George. She claims emphatically again in the Vice documentary that she never cheated. And, you know, I know that that's, sort of a, he said, she said thing,

[00:36:24] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah.

[00:36:24] JOSH: But up until then, in my mind, the story was always

[00:36:28] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah, that's,

[00:36:29] JOSH: him.

[00:36:29] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Yeah. Very interesting. For

[00:36:31] JOSH: and there was never like any question about that, like, as far as I was concerned. But, she was in tears and she was like, very emphatic that she was never, never unfaithful to George while they were married.

[00:36:42] Um, which I just think is worth,

[00:36:44] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): That is very much worth mentioning for sure.

[00:36:47] JOSH: But anyway, um, why do you think. Marcia Lucas has reemerged now to tell her side of the story to get well, I mean her side of the story, but, but to give, these interviews, do you think it is because of the Disney sale and the fact that George Lucas isn't running everything?

[00:37:07] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I think that's exactly what happened. I mean, if you look at it, right, Disney sell was what, 10 years ago now at this point? Or something like that,

[00:37:12] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. it was 2012. That is crazy.

[00:37:14] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): The first time I saw her pop out in person was then in 25th, whatever. When, when? When was the 40th anniversary of 2017?

[00:37:26] 40th anniversary of, of New Hope when they had the event. And so there was a video of her. There was the, it was like a, a dual interview. You confided on, on the internet still with her and Dwayne Dunham for. Four minutes of just Marcia being like, Hello, I'm Marcia. And then talking about like something and it's on some random Vimeo channel and I was just like, What is going on?

[00:37:46] Um, so you traced that 2017 to now 2022 and you skip the pandemic in there. And so she makes that appearance in 2019 at the academy. Um, and I think it's her just slowly kind of realizing that people are interested in her story. She's also been out of the public eye for such a long time, but I do feel like you get to a point where Star Wars.

[00:38:08] Is not only the biggest thing in the world when you are married to, to someone, but then is the biggest thing in the world with the prequel trilogy when you're separated from it. And then the biggest thing in the world, again with the sequel tris, right? It's had two more, uh, moments of relevancy. And so with this third time, I bet she felt like, Hey, like we're removed from it.

[00:38:27] George Georges removed from it. If someone credible came calling, I will. Say something. Right. And again, the moments that we've had besides the Vice documentary, which I don't know how they swung that I, you know, I'm not gonna make this a ba bash session because again, like we were saying, everything takes hard work to produce, but that one anyway.

[00:38:48] Um, but for something like the Academy, for something like the Howard book, it was very specific. Very intentional things that were asked of her. And I think that's, if we ever do see something like that from her in the future, it will be something of that caliber. Um, and again, I think it's just, you know, time, time doesn't necessarily heal wounds, but it does.

[00:39:13] Help with, with certain aspects of it. And you know, again, I think there have been a lot of people talking to her. I know that like, um, the Hamels are still in touch with her. Like there are some elements that are still in touch about, about certain aspects of everything. And so, um, I think she's being a little more comfortable.

[00:39:33] Um, and we'll see, We'll see if that continues. There was like, there was gonna be an autograph signing with her two years. Um, which got like, she was on board and then got canceled at the last minute. Um, just like interesting things like that. So, um, we'll see if that continues. I almost hope that it doesn't, and maybe, and honestly it might have stopped now just because of, um, the reaction that that Howard book had, um, in a negative way.

[00:40:02] And the people that coordinated that really were, were bummed cuz it, it took away. Howard story, and it became just like a, something for the internet to argue about for a week, which really bummed me out too. I was like, This is, But again, she's entitle to her opinion. I, you know, but it was more just how people responded and respected that it kind of rubbed me and also just the people that were helping coordinate that the wrong way.

[00:40:25] So we'll see if that continues. Um, but yeah, just a fascinating, fascinating time to get all this information. All of a sudden, really the final puzzle piece of, of a lot of.

[00:40:35] JOSH: My issues with the Vice documentary aside. Like there were some things that she said, that I thought were, , were very revealing and very, um, I don't wanna say shocking because that, you know, makes it sound salacious, but it sort of, you know, she very much gave, confirmation that, George was basically so hurt that he just wanted and wants nothing to do with her.

[00:41:01] And I can understand from her perspective you know well, okay, well if that's what he wants, then I will stay away. And I think that selling Lucasfilm to Disney. Kind of creates that room for her to sort of reemerge, because now all of a sudden, George Lucas isn't, he isn't everything Star Wars. He's not in control of, what is seen and like, you know what is said and so I do think that, Has a lot to do with it, that she sees that, it's not exclusively his turf anymore.

[00:41:34] So it's sort of okay to kind of emerge without, risking, upsetting anybody but, something that was really striking to me, seeing the Vice documentary released so close, to Light & Magic you know, to your point earlier, I almost have to wonder whether or not that was intentional counter programming, right?

[00:41:52] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure. They were like, Oh, this documentary's come out, let's also do at the same time. And it was intentional in that sense. I think that they were just misjudging the quality of what they had, uh, compared. They were like, Wait a second. You're telling me Lawrence Kasdan directed something?

[00:42:06] Let's go up against it. You know? It was like real Antz/Bug's Life situation.

[00:42:11] JOSH: Well, so , so out of curiosity, , and again, like this wasn't, the making of Star Wars. Light & Magic was about Industrial Light & Magic, and was about much more than just the making of Star Wars, even though that was sort of the cornerstone of the whole thing. Uh But for example, because it was Lawrence Kaden who, you know, is certainly, friends with George Lucas and is, you know, making a product for

[00:42:36] Disney and Lucasfilm. And for, Kathleen Kennedy, like I very much get the impression that they all still want to respect George's feelings.

[00:42:45] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): For sure.

[00:42:46] JOSH: especially when it comes to things like, re-releasing the original unaltered trilogy, and. how it, depicts Lucas', uh, George Lucas's role, and Marcia, in terms of the official, story about the making of the films.

[00:43:02] Like I get the sense that know, Lawrence Kasdan would not have called up Marcia Lucas and been like, Hey, would you sit down for an interview with me? Just because, that's sort of not what you do when you're making something official about Star Wars.

[00:43:17] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Here's, It's very interesting. Again, like you mentioned, having Lawrence Kasdan as the director of a project, specifically for Disney and for Disney Plus, and working alongside ilm, you do give up a small amount, right? You do give up a tiny amount of. Of, um, what's the word?

[00:43:37] Like you have to assume that Disney definitely made a pass through it and was like, You need to take this out. You need to take this out. That being said, I was very surprised with a lot of the candor that was in that documentary that I was not expecting to see. For instance, the Ditra Lucas beef was in there.

[00:43:53] Almost to, to the fly. I think they, they, they coded it a tiny bit, but overall people were very upfront about it. People were very reflective on it. I think that was very interesting and a very interesting example of something like, you know, the Marcia George. Part of it all, um, of how that could have been approached.

[00:44:12] Uh, that being said, of course, that they not in a million years, would they've ever touched it inside of that documentary specifically. Um, and I don't think they really needed to. Uh, I don't know if that documentary would be better or worse if there was a whole thing about like, you know, Marcia saving it in the edit and then, you know, what happened with Jedi and what happened after it.

[00:44:32] You know, like, does that really impact how the story of Island being formed?

[00:44:38] Is created, right? Like if you, if you view it as that through line of that, that thesis statement, then, I mean, Marcia is obviously a part of it, but she's not like, uh, the main driving force. Um, and then on the pop side you have icons on Earth, which I guess I, I don't know what the thesis of that story is, which I think is the major flaw of it.

[00:44:55] I really don't know what, like he was trying to say beyond like, I loved the first two movies and hated everything else. Here's a bunch of people that worked on them to maybe

[00:45:04] JOSH: Who, who agree with me? Yeah.

[00:45:06] Well, that's sort of what the thesis is, right? Like it's sort of this, this, very, tired narrative about how George Lucas isn't really the genius everyone thinks he is. And I'm, I'm sort of tired of that,

[00:45:17] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I'm so tired of it. I'm so tired. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. You know what I mean? I'm just so tired of it.

[00:45:23] And, um, it all,

[00:45:24] JOSH: it's just an exhausting thing to listen to because it's so much more complicated than that.

[00:45:29] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Great.

[00:45:30] JOSH: Like there's so much, it , it's, it's so much more complicated than that. So I sat down to watch it just out of kind of morbid curiosity because I knew that, the Marcia Lucas footage was in there and I just, you know, wanted to see what she would say.

[00:45:43] And I like, I mean, let me put it this way, like I would never recommend, vice documentary to anyone who, who doesn't already have a, very familiar and intimate knowledge of the making of those movies, because I think it creates, I think it leaves you with, a false impression of, what actually happened. But that said, like, like, I do think there was enormous value for, for just, the Marcia interview alone.

[00:46:05] But um, so I'd like to ask you a terrible question and I apologize in advance.

[00:46:11] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Okay.

[00:46:12] JOSH: so you're about to do the last episode of Talking Bay 94. You have interviewed everyone that has had anything to do with the films in any capacity, at least four times over. And your final episode, you have an opportunity to interview either George Lucas or Marcia Lucas, and you can only choose one because the other will refuse if you interview.

[00:46:34] The other, um, who, who would you choose, for your, final installment?

[00:46:40] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I'm so glad you phrased it

[00:46:41] that way

[00:46:42] JOSH: Why

[00:46:44] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): cuz I am, I am on record. I, I, I'm on record saying that if I ever interview Marcia Lucas, which is, is enormous, That is a, you know, that minuscule, minuscule, minuscule chance that that will be the last episode of Talking Bay 94. Um. Because that's it, George, I would never say no to interviewing George, obviously in, in a hypothetical, but George has been interviewed so many times, right?

[00:47:12] Like, like by interviewing George, you're going up against thousands of interviews, right? Thousands of well documented, well accessible interviews. You're interviewing Marcia, you're going up against five, four interviews, right? Like, that's it. The, the, the potential to actually ask interesting questions, which. Has not been done very much. Right. Again, there the, you know, is, is incredible and, and for an interview and also for a fan of Star Wars Hospital, fan of, of Marcia, it is really would be the ultimate kind of opportunity with George. I've always, people are, Oh, what would you ask George Lucas? I don't, there's really not that much left to ask George.

[00:47:54] I think. Um, Paul Duncan, who wrote the archives books, uh, for tain, did a really incredible job recently, especially in the, the prequel archive, um, of interviewing George in a way that not a lot of people had done before, which was really going towards his inspirations to what he was reading right then to what he was thinking about.

[00:48:14] And that's how we got a lot of this really interesting information about like Milo and what his plans for the sequels were. Right. It was a very free flowing. Interesting thing, rather than being like, All right, tell me about the inspiration for Star Wars. Like, you liked Flash Gordon, Like, what's going on?

[00:48:28] Right? And so he did it in a way that I really related to where he talked about comics and he talked about art and he talked about humans and he talked about philosophy. And that's a very tough interview to prepare for. Uh, but also not necessarily like a good quote unquote Star Wars interview. Um, it.

[00:48:46] Philosophy interview. And I think one day I'd be very interested in tackling that, especially when the museum opens up. I bet you'll get a few more of those kind of pieces. And I would love to, to be a part of that somehow. Um, cuz again, asking George about Star Wars, at this point, I'm, I'm kinda tired of like, I, I really don't almost want to, like, what is he gonna say beyond, like, almost, um, every, every time he's asked about the holiday special or about whatever, it's always kind of a revisionist history and you're like, there's no point in asking.

[00:49:14] You might as well ask him, like,

[00:49:16] So anyway, that's a long answer of saying yes, Marcia. 100%.

[00:49:21] JOSH: Well, no. Well, I mean, I agree with you exactly. like it's also, you know, not only do we know a lot of, or basically as much as we're ever gonna know about things from George's, point of view, it's also, his answers. Through no fault of his own, like this is, it's just what happens when you're talking about the same thing over.

[00:49:40] time, over decades and, and decades. But like, his answers have kind of, calcified a little bit and, you know, uh, you used the phrase, um, revisionist history. I think that, What happens over time when you're trying to reduce what is a complex series of events and thoughts that you are recalling from your own memory, that over time, the more you recount it a certain way, the more you come to really remember a version of things that never actually happened.

[00:50:12] Exactly. That way, like, because it's so, it's, it's so complex and like, you know, when you have to, come up, with an answer to the question, like, you know, when did you get the idea for this? Or what was the inspiration behind this? Like, you end up, um, constructing a narrative that over time, becomes in your mind true.

[00:50:31] Uh, like the idea that, the idea that, um, the much discussed and off debated question about like how much of the overall story of Star Wars. Was planned out from the beginning. And it's like, it's not that Darth Vader was always George Lucas's father per se, but there always was a father figure and there always was like, this, this, this fascination or this interest in themes about fathers and sons and the generations and like, you know, what we get from the past and all that.

[00:51:02] So, so in a sense like, That's always what the story was about. but in another sense, , like I'm a firm believer that when they were making the original Star Wars, that the idea that Darth Vader was actually Anakin Skywalker was not a glimmer in, in anyone's mind.

[00:51:18] It's just very clear, like when you watch that movie, like that's not who that, who that character is.

[00:51:23] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): It also doesn't matter. It also doesn't. Yeah. It's very interesting, like you're saying, him being like, Oh, it was always the plans, what's going on? Like no. Like we know it wasn't and it's fine. You like him. And again, that's why it's been interesting cuz him trying to appear not human almost. Right? Him being like, This is how I've always wanted it.

[00:51:42] Here's what I've always. Demanded. And even things like, for instance, the, the thing I always love, uh, is not only like, okay, release the original cut ball officers, right. Please do. But like, I get it. Um, but if you ever go and look up the storyboards for the Jabba scene, In a new hope that gets inserted and you're like, Oh, like I, it wears, uh, what's his name?

[00:52:09] Declan Mahol. Right. Like, okay, like, I wanna see, you know, it had to have existed, but there's no trace of that. There is just versions of, of Jabba with Salacious Crumb who does not exist until 1983. Right. But of that Jabba in that scene. and then that's inserted into the books as if that was what was going on.

[00:52:28] That was always the plan, and that's what George always wanted, is like, no, like he had a general idea that he wanted something non-human, but then wasn't able to do it. Like, it wasn't like I wanted a slug guy who looked like this. That was never the case. Right.

[00:52:42] JOSH: No, and you can, tell because of the way the scene. staged. Like, we see it on screen in, uh, the special editions. Like there's no way that Harrison Ford walks around the character if he's supposed to be a slug.

[00:52:52] Right. Uh, but anyway, anyway, um, I digressed. so, but yes, like I think that interviewing Marcia, there's the opportunity to hear things and hear a, um, a point of view, learn things that you would never get from interviewing George Lucas. Like if if the goal is to learn more about how these films were made, I think, I think interviewing Marcia is the way to go.

[00:53:18] Do you think it'll ever happen?

[00:53:21] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): I don't know. Uh, I'm not gonna say it's gonna happen. Uh, I will say it's now more possible than ever. Obviously, if she, if she's willing to do it, obviously I'm not gonna like email her this week or whatever it is. I've gotten, close is the wrong word. I've gotten closer than ever before. In terms of finding the correct contact information, it really will have to be something very special and something very important.

[00:53:45] It might not be for talking day, it might be. For something else, but it'd be very cool if that ended up happening, and I hope it does. I'm not holding my breath, but I hope it does. Um, you're catching me on a very optimistic day. I interviewed someone today who I've always wanted to interview and it was not for Talking Bay, and I was like, Okay, we can check that off the list.

[00:54:03] It happened. Uh, so who knows? Um, who knows if Marcia'll ever, uh, come to pass? I hope so.

[00:54:10] JOSH: I hope so too. I would love to hear that interview. Um, Is there anything that, you wish people would, stop saying about, Marcia Lucas or George Lucas or her involvement in, in the movies that people would just like know or stop saying like, You actually don't know what talking about.

[00:54:26] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): if it's wishes, uh, for what people would stop saying, that's a very long list. Uh, and it's everything that we've talked about during this entire interview. Uh, and I think it's more of a general thing, which is just like, just having. Uh, an element of good faith in how you consume media and I think is so important, especially when it comes to something like Star Wars and like obviously you and I have been talking for an hour and have had just a great time just talking about something we love, but are both coming at from the same way, which is these are movies that were made for 10 year old boys in 1977, and.

[00:54:59] Really important parts of our lives that we are very happy exist, but are not perfect, and are not things that can be like, you know, observed religiously. And it's important that we just like take it as a, um, an important thing in our lives that that brings us joy. And as soon as it stops, bring us joy.

[00:55:14] And as soon as we start looking for things to like, make us dislike something or make people the villain in this story that we are creating on our. It's like, what's the point? Go, go read a different book. Go watch a different movie, and, uh, and find something you enjoy. Um, and I hope, I hope Marcia has found things that she's enjoyed beyond film editing and, you know, with, with her family and, and, and with her life.

[00:55:37] And, uh, I'm always grateful for people to that know her name now, uh, maybe not the context that I was expecting people to know her name, but, um, I'm glad that people are starting to, to come, come around to the importance that she has. Um, But again, everything is nuanced and, uh, please, please do more research than than YouTube channels.

[00:55:57] Um, unless Trash Compactor has a YouTube channel, then please just, uh, go to the Trash Compactor YouTube channel.

[00:56:03] JOSH: thank you for the plug.

[00:56:04] Uh,

[00:56:05] uh, we do actually, um, I second everything, you just said. I think, approaching the media you consume in good faith and, uh, not assuming the worst intentions or the worst about, I mean, we want to like things, I want to, like things. I don't want, to

[00:56:20] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): Right,

[00:56:20] JOSH: like things I don't, I'm not like, you know, looking for things to hate on. It's just like, yeah. But that's a topic for a whole other episode. If you like this discussion, , please, please, , listen to, Talking Bay 94, which you can find at TalkingBay94.com.

[00:56:35] Brandon is @TalkingBay94 on Twitter. Are there any other avenues, you'd like to plug? I mean, if you search for Talking Bay 94,

[00:56:42] it comes up.

[00:56:42] It's what comes up.

[00:56:43] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): It'll be there. Uh, if you ever, if you wanna pick up, I get no money from it. Uh, but if you pick up Star Wars Insider, um, for the past few issues, I'm in there interviewing people as well, the official Star Wars magazine. So,

[00:56:55] uh, if you're re if you really, if you really, uh, if you really wanna read more of, of me, that's another way to do so as well.

[00:57:02] So that's it.

[00:57:03] JOSH: Uh, you have a piece on the Special Editions. Is it already out?

[00:57:07] BRANDON (@TalkingBay94): It's already out. I'm very proud of that. Took a lot of effort and work. I think I interviewed 10 people for it as an oral history. Uh, very, very proud. Dennis Muren was one of them. Uh, but also people like Dave Carson and Don Bies and um, Nelson Hall. And really, uh, I'm very, very proud of that. Cause the specialist do mean a lot to me is how I first watch Star Wars.

[00:57:29] Um, and, and so I always, I always have a very special place in my heart for. And I'm very, I'm very grateful that they, uh, allowed me to do it. Cause I feel like some people don't like talking about it. Uh, but yes, that, I forget which issue that's in, but that should be able to pick up just at your local comic book shop or something like that.

[00:57:45] Um, and check it out.

[00:57:46] JOSH: Oh, that's very cool. so yes, Google Talking bay 94. It's what comes up. And if you would like a transcript of this conversation, please visit trashcompod.com, and we are trashcompod across all social media, and we will see you on the next one.