GROWING UP PREQUELS: Becoming a fan in the time of the prequel trilogy

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh. Most of the people we talked to on the podcast, myself included, grew up with the original trilogy as the only Star Wars there was making our experience of the prequel something fundamentally different. I've been interested in talking to fans who got into Star Wars via the prequels, and today I'm presenting a conversation I had with a user I met on the originaltrilogy.com forums named Keith a k a Octorox who first got into Star Wars in the lead up to Revenge of the Sith at the rip old age of 12.

Just a note here. This chat happened last summer, but I wanted to hold it back for our prequel focused season because I think it fits better here alongside the topics of our other recent episodes. I should also note that due to a technical malfunction on my end, my microphone wasn't working during the recording, so my audio isn't the best, but Keith's side is crystal clear and he had some fascinating insights that I didn't dare want to lose.

So without further ado, Here is the conversation I had with Keith from last summer about his experience coming to Star Wars during the time of the prequels.

I'm pleased to be joined by, Keith.

[00:01:06] KEITH: I'm glad to be here.

[00:01:08] JOSH: So Keith, if you don't, mind me saying you, uh, post on the original trilogy, message board, which is a website primarily about fan edits and fan preservation, is that a

[00:01:18] KEITH: correct. And it's a, it's a little ironic. that I grew up with the prequels and I, I post I'm active on original trilogy.com, but it's kind of, uh, I've been with the site for a long time and it's kind of morphed from being a site specifically kind of for fans of the original trilogy to kind of congregate.

I know when, uh, at a way back in the day when like the force do net was like very prepo positive. Like some, some of the like dis more disgruntled parts of the fandom kind of, uh, gathered there, but it's really evolved so many, like fan edit projects have come out of there. So it's really evolved into kind of just like a general community.

For fan edits, preservation of the films, like, and really all kinds of discussion. And I find it's probably one of the more at these days. It's one of the more chill star wars, uh, fan communities out there. So I, uh, I enjoy, yeah.

[00:02:16] JOSH: I would agree with you. You know, in full candor, a lot of Star Wars, online fandom spaces. I find. Difficult, for, for one reason or another. And original trilogy generally, is always a fun, a fun read.

So you said you experienced the films in the episode order. So was your first star wars movie, the Phantom.

[00:02:41] KEITH: Um, yeah, so I actually, I came to it a little late, uh, Star Wars. So I was, uh, born in 91. So I, I, um, Was probably about 12, 12 ish. When I, when I first got into star wars, which I know like compared to some people who were just like, I watched him when I was five or whatever, it's, it's a little late, um, to get into it.

But basically I had a friend, uh, at the time who was really into star wars and the, um, basically the advertising and the hype for the Revenge of the Sith was just, um, starting up. This was like around 2004, I believe. Um, like the, the first trailers were coming out. It was being advertised, um, you know, on, on TV commercials.

And, you know, as a kid, honestly, as a kid, I mostly watched animated stuff more than, um, than even live action. You know, I grew up with Disney, the Disney Renaissance, so like lion king, little mermaid, uh, all those movies I grew up with. Watching Nickelodeon, Nick tunes and cartoon network in like the late nineties, early two thousands.

Um, so, um, and honestly, yeah, so that's kind of how I got introduced to, it was kind of seeing those commercials, hearing my friend talk about it. And he had kind of like the Lego sets. And I think the, the Phantom Menace was when they started doing the Lego sets and, you know, he had all that stuff, so I kind of wanted to get into it.

So I, um, I went to my dad actually, you know, because, um, and I asked my dad like, Hey, I want to get into star wars. Like, will you watch these movies with me? And of course, you know, he, he he's, he's someone who saw all three of the original trilogy in theaters. Um, you know, when they premiered. So, you know, he he's like, sure, like, we'll start, you know, we'll start with those.

And my thought at the time was like, Hey, well, wait a minute. Like these are numbered, you know, one through six. And you know, from what I'm hear, what my friend told me is that these ones, even though they're newer, they come first, you're supposed to watch these, you know, my kind of like 12 year old, uh, you know, I was kind of like buying into to George Lucas's, um, kind of preferred way of, of kind of imagining how a new fan will kind of, uh, or a cha uh, kid will kind of watch through the movies.

So I can't a hundred percent. So we actually did end up watching the prequels first. Um, we rented from blockbuster, the DVDs for Phantom menace and attack of the clones. I, um,

[00:05:29] JOSH: Had your dad seen the prequels before or no. Was

[00:05:32] KEITH: he had, no, he had not, he had, he had not seen the prequels. He had watched the original trilogy. When it came out in theaters and he just hadn't really thought much about star wars since then.

Um,

[00:05:44] JOSH: Like most

[00:05:45] KEITH: you know, yeah.

[00:05:47] JOSH: us.

[00:05:48] KEITH: yeah, neither one of my parents were really like, I, I was definitely introduced to things by my parents sometimes, but neither of them were really people who were like, you know, a lot of times star wars fans. They're like, oh, when I have kid, if I have kids, it's like, I want to introduce my kids to it at the right time.

Or like, you know, I want my kids to kind of watch all the stuff that I did growing up. Neither of my parents were really like that. They didn't really push anything on me. And that's probably why I hadn't seen star wars and I was 12. Um, but, uh, anyway, um, so we rented the, the Phantom menace to start with, uh, the DVD, um, and you know, this was the DVD.

So we had the, uh, puppet Yoda in Phantom Menace and all that stuff. And we, we watched it on, uh, I think we had, we had a pretty nice TV for the time, but it was like a 30 something inch, C R

[00:06:44] JOSH: C R T a.

[00:06:46] KEITH: Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I think, I do think there is something to watching it on a CRT, the, the kind of like the differences in the visual effects and stuff are not as noticeable at a lower resolution, but, um,

anyway. Yeah, so we watched those, I honestly don't remember if it was that I watched one and two, and then I watched Revenge of the Sith and theaters. And then I watched the original trilogy, or if I watched it like 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 3,

[00:07:19] JOSH: Oh, really?

[00:07:20] KEITH: I might have, because I was, I was getting into star wars, um, in the lead up to Aven of the Sy.

the, I know they came out with that original trilogy box set in 2004, the, the 2004 DVD set. And, um,

I, that,

those were the ones I had. Um, and they were the full screen versions, those pan and scan, not the, uh, the wide screen, which was a mistake. But I, I think it was kind of like, I, I, cuz I, I was getting it, like I think we were really getting it for my dad, but it was really for me, you know, cause I wanted to watch them.

So

I would ask

[00:08:02] JOSH: Hey, nothing wrong with nothing wrong with growing up with a pan and scan of the original trilogy. That's

[00:08:07] KEITH: yeah. At,

[00:08:08] JOSH: And at even lower resolution. So,

[00:08:10] KEITH: And I, I think, yeah, I think the

idea was like, yeah, the idea was like, oh, well of course you wanted to fill up the screen. Right. But like you don't think about the fact that you're losing a bunch of picture information on the left and right side. but, um, yeah, so I may have watched those 2004 original trilogy discs before I saw revenge.

The sit in theaters, I'm honestly not sure, but it's that kind of like, I was watching it all at the same time. So it was like all kind of a blur, you know, it, I didn't have kind of the experience of watching the prequels or watching the originals and then sitting with those and then watching the prequels or vice versa, like it was, to me, it was just all one,

you know, I knew that the prequels were newer.

I knew that they, you know, had quote unquote better effects because they were newer and they were made with, with newer technology. You know, I, I understood that, but I didn't really think of it as like two distinct, you know, I thought of it as one story, I

guess, which is kind of like what, what I guess George Lucas was, was going for, you know, so

[00:09:19] JOSH: no, absolutely. That, that was his stated intention. So,

[00:09:22] KEITH: Yeah.

[00:09:24] JOSH: certainly what it was. Um, out of curiosity, do you remember, um, what your feelings or thoughts or reactions were to the Phantom menace and then episode two when you saw them the first time? I mean, clearly you enjoyed them enough to keep on

[00:09:40] KEITH: I did. Yeah. So I, you know, the thing is as a kid, I really like, so I started obviously with, with a lot of animated stuff and then I kind of got into, you know, fantasy and that's kind of how I saw star wars. I wasn't really, I didn't really get into sci-fi until later I was really, you know, I was into Harry Potter.

I was into, I don't know, I, I definitely had read the Hobbit. I don't know if I had watched the Lord of the rings films yet. It was all kind of around the same time, but I feel like I, I didn't see those in theaters, so I might have watched them a little later, but like I was really getting into fantasy. So I, when I watched the star wars prequels, I was kind of looking at it through that lens.

Like these were. These are epic fantasy films that have spaceships and stuff in them.

I wasn't

[00:10:26] JOSH: Well, I mean, they really are. They really are. I mean like, like I think that's actually a really good. You know, uh, transition, uh, like a, it's a really good way to move from like kind of high fantasy to science fiction because star wars is really fantasy with the iconography of science fiction and like my book.

[00:10:48] KEITH: And I feel like the prequels, the prequels have even, I feel like even tilt more towards fantasy and, and perhaps even less of the science fiction than the original. I mean, you could say something like, oh, the LORs, that's a very science fiction concept, but, um, in terms of like the visuals, like, it was very kind of these kind of like, it was much more something like you would think of in like a Lord of the rings.

Like it, it was kind of like courtly drama mixed, you know, Mixed with, um, you know, kind of high fantasy and these like, um, you know, these lush environments of like, um, you know, with Nabu and everything, it was kind of these, yeah. These lush landscapes and, you know, kind of the idyllic green pastures that you might see in like, of load of the rings or something versus kind of the gritty used universe kind of feel of the original trilogy

and like

[00:11:49] JOSH: characters are like Knight with swords. And like, you don't have like a ha and solo sort of like rough and tumble greaser.

[00:11:56] KEITH: And I think that's something that like is a big differentiator between kind of fans who grew up with the prequels and fans who grew up with primarily the original trilogy is honestly Han solo, never interested me that much. I was way more interested in what was going on with Luke than I was with Han solo, because I cared about the Jedi.

And I cared about like the Skywalker saga, you know,

like that's, that's what I, yeah.

That's what I was invested in. Yeah. To me Han was more like, I liked Han like he's a fun character, but it wa to me that wasn't the core story, the core story was Luke and at Anakin and like, um, you know, it's very, I think very much how George Lucas saw it is, you

know, Yeah.

This is a father and son, a kind of intergenerational saga, like an epic, it's almost like an epic poem in six parts or something is like how he was conceiving of it at that point. You know, I don't know when he was conceiving the original trilogy. I know he was thinking of some of those things, you know, he had ideas for the prequels, but it wasn't, you know, there definitely were other elements to it.

It wasn't the same thing. I mean, especially like I'm thinking of something like the flash Gordon inspiration

in the original trilogy. I feel like that's more. In terms of sort of the, the storytelling is very like flash Gordon kind of like, it's an adventure story. Whereas I feel like in the prequels it's a little more literal, like the visuals are flash Gordon inspired.

Like if you look at like the Nabu starships and stuff,

it's like all curves and all kind of

like Chrome, Chrome. Yeah.

Um, so like, I think it's interesting kind of like how his conception of it evolved over time. And I can see how that was frustrating for fans. I mean, for fans of the original trilogy, I think for me, you know, and I we'll, we'll kind of get into how my thoughts on the prequels kind of evolved over time, but, um, you know, I would say the way, you know, to the extent that I do enjoy those movies, I enjoy them in a very different way than I maybe enjoy the original trilogy films or even the sequel films.

To me,

[00:14:18] JOSH: Sorry the way you enjoy. Sorry. The way you enjoy the prequels.

[00:14:21] KEITH: exactly like the way you, you kind of have to, I'll say, as a kid, they totally worked on me. So like the Phantom menace, even as a kid, I think JJA, and some of that stuff, I felt a little like, okay, this is, you know, I, I was 12. So like, I'm like, maybe I'm a little, like a little above this. I feel like , but the, all the, the kind of the stuff with the Jedi and Darth Mo and the kind of like the visuals and the music, like all of that kind of like worked on me.

It kind of like, for me, it was like a very compelling at the time, a very compelling, like introduction to the universe of kind of like, this is a really cool fantasy sci-fi universe that I want to, that, you know, that I got sucked into and it made me want to watch the other movies. Uh,

and then it's

[00:15:12] JOSH: Well, I mean, then, then, then George Lucas was right on the money cuz that's exactly what he was trying to do. He, I believe said he was making movies for 10 year olds, but, but so maybe that's why maybe you were a little over the jar jar stuff, but, but uh, uh, no, I think that was his intention and you are living proof that it, um, that it's succeed.

[00:15:35] KEITH: An attack of the clones. I, I honestly, I think I remember finding a attack of the clones a little more boring actually than the Phantom menace. I think, you know, I probably the romance aspects at the time, like what, you know, 12 year old boy, it wasn't really, you know, maybe I wasn't the most into that, but the other stuff, like the stuff with the clone army and Obi-Wan investigating, and then the big arena fight at the end, like all of that was cool to me as a kid, like it just worked, it, it worked the way, I think for the most part that, that George kind of wanted it to work and.

And we'll get into revenge of the say that was the first star wars film that I saw in its original theatrical release. Um, and that movie, that's a movie that I still have a strong fondness for to this day. I, I think the first two prequels when I watch them, there's certainly a lot that I appreciate about them still, but there's also a lot of things that take me out of it a bit as somebody who's, you know, seen more movies and is, is older and, and kind of, you know, approaches it from the perspective of someone who has kind of learned about filmmaking and, you know yeah.

But Revenge of the Sith, despite its issues still works on me and I, and I watch, you know, and obviously being part of the original trilogy forums, I've been exposed to kind of various fan edits and I've even made my own, but revenge, the Sy is the one pre wool where I could watch the. I can watch the original version, the, and just have a good time with it and the issues with it.

Don't really, um, the, you know, they don't bother me that much and I, I can kind of get into that more, but, um,

[00:17:29] JOSH: Uh, no. Yeah. Um, I think prevention of the Sy is definitely the one, uh, for me, at least where the, the emotions are most visceral. I think it really hits me more on a visceral level, more so than, um, the Phantom minister attack of the clones, because I think, you know, that's really the whole. You know, reason for the

[00:17:59] KEITH: It's, it's the meat, it's the meat of the story, you know, it's kind

of. I've heard it. I've heard. It said like, oh, George Lucas was kind of riffing for two movies. And then he is like, all right, now here's all the stuff that I like knew I actually had to be part of these movies. That's that said, I don't think the other two movies are not important or not essential.

I know like

some people or like, there's that whole idea of the machete cut where it's like, you just cut out the fan of me. You don't

[00:18:27] JOSH: I, I don't, I don't like that because solo full disclosure and I will get into this in much more detail over, uh, you know, many episodes, uh, future episodes to come. But I,

[00:18:41] KEITH: yeah.

[00:18:42] JOSH: I have complicated feelings about each of the prequel films, but, I have a real soft spot for the P it's actually for my money.

One prequel that feels the most like the original trilogy and I think is a theory, but I think it's because it was shot on 35 millimeter film. So, so it, so it it's, it has that kind of warmth and that grain, unless you watch it on, uh, streaming on, uh, uh, Disney plus where it's been, uh, DNR to hell and everyone looks like a wax figure, but, but the, the, um, I'm a big sort of proponent of the idea that the, you know, the, the aesthetic quality of the image like that, that, uh, uh, 10 80 P digital video looks, especially in attack of the clones

[00:19:39] KEITH: Yeah.

[00:19:40] JOSH: creates this like visual separation, uh, between the first four movies.

And. The next two prequels, but that just could be my own personal

[00:19:51] KEITH: I, no, I, think you, I think you're onto something, you know, the thing about me, I think is the aesthetics. There are definitely things, especially with the attack of the clones. There are definitely elements that don't hold up so well, like in terms of the CGI and stuff. But the thing about the aesthetics is I think like, you know, you being someone who grew up, grew up watching the original trilogy first is I.

People are very attached to those aesthetics. It's the kind of, again, like I said, the used universe, but also kind of like the, the 35 millimeter, like optical effects, like everything kind of feels handmade. You got the puppets, all that. And I love, you know, I love that stuff. I think it's really cool what they were able to do.

Um, but I also, you know, I grew up with CGI. Like it was just kind of a thing that was in movies. And, um, so the prequel trilogy to me, it does look dated. Some of it looks dated, it's dated in a different way than the original trilogy is.

And I I think it, it's kind of an aesthetic. It's a different aesthetic.

And I think you either, you know, you know, I, now I know there are people like my age and even younger than me, that they have the same kind of warm, fuzzy nostalgia for early CGI. That people who grew up in the eighties and nineties maybe do for practical effects, like,

[00:21:21] JOSH: which I love by the way. I

[00:21:23] KEITH: yeah. Like you can see the seams of it.

Definitely like, uh, you know, not to get you technical, but things like

[00:21:30] JOSH: No, please

[00:21:32] KEITH: ambient occlusion, like ambient occlusion and stuff. Like, there's been a

lot of advances in, yeah. There's been a

lot of advances in CGI that make it look much more photo realistic now, but there, you know, I think the, I don't necessarily know that I feel that nostalgic for the early CGI, but I definitely like appreciate it as like, wow.

Like, you know, you gotta think about when this movie came out and what they were trying to do. And like obviously their ambition kind of, um, you know, maybe went past like what the technology could really pull off well at the time, but. I don't know, like I was watching it again. I was watching a ton of animated stuff at the time.

So to me, it's like a movie was a movie. It didn't matter if it was animated or live action or CGI or, you know, hand drawn. And like now, as someone who studied film, I have an appreciation for like all those different media and how they differ and, and kind of the aesthetic value in different media. But at the time as a kid, like a movie was a movie.

And so like that aspect of it was not, not something that ever struck me watching it as a kid, I was never like these movies. Why do these movies look so different? I was just kind of like, well, these movies are newer, so they're gonna

look different. But also I thought, Hey, this is, you know, this is the, the, the height of the Republic.

This is the time where things are gonna look pristine and shiny and. It's gonna look, um, you know, grand and it's, it's kind of, you know, and then the, the original trilogy we've kind of got these scrappy rebels and we've got, um, you know, pulling scraps together to try to Mount, uh, you know, fight against the empire.

So like, it makes sense that things look more worn And

used. And so like for, for me that like the aesthetics kind of tracked in that way, when I was a kid. Now, what I think, do I think the prequels probably would've looked better if they shot them all in 35 millimeter and used a better blend of CGI and practical effects?

I, I think so. , but I also kind of really just appreciate them for what they are in terms of, you know, they were pioneering, they changed the way films are made. I mean, you look at some, there are a lot of films shot digitally now that are. almost, you know, indistinguishable from film. Like if you look at a movie like knives out or

[00:24:08] JOSH: Now as that, I was just gonna say, yeah, the,

[00:24:10] KEITH: Yeah,

[00:24:11] JOSH: uh, the DP, I forget his name's on tip of my tongue. I feel terrible.

[00:24:14] KEITH: yeah,

[00:24:15] JOSH: he convinced Ryan Johnson who wanted to shoot it on 35 that he could, he could make it

[00:24:21] KEITH: yeah.

[00:24:22] JOSH: look indistinguishable.

[00:24:23] KEITH: But you don't, you don't get to that without the, the kind of early versions of that. Like the rough, the,

the rough around the edges version of that, you know? And I think, um, the, uh, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of star wars fans of an older generation who are like, okay, but don't do that with star wars.

You know, make some other movie, that's a experiment with digital filmmaking, but, but I kind of, you know, but star wars had a certain aesthetic and you should stick to that. But, but my feeling is, you know, it kind of had to be star wars. It, it had to be. Something big, you know, with the kind of cache of star wars to really grab the attention and kind of, you know, move, move things forward in that way.

Um, so,

[00:25:12] JOSH: I agree with you.

[00:25:13] KEITH: Yeah.

[00:25:14] JOSH: I agree with you a hundred percent. I think you're a hundred percent, right.

[00:25:18] KEITH: Yeah.

[00:25:18] JOSH: uh, my only qual, um, you know, and we've alluded to this already, but the idea that George Lucas really his intention was for these films to be watched in the order. You watched them where you watched the prequels, the newer movies first, and then you go to the original trilogy

[00:25:39] KEITH: Mm-hmm

[00:25:41] JOSH: I just feel like of those aesthetic differences make that transition. Not as smooth as it could be

[00:25:52] KEITH: and I think that was probably his idea behind the special editions was like, all right, let's do some

stuff to

[00:25:59] JOSH: up a little bit.

[00:26:01] KEITH: Yeah.

Do some stuff to the older films to make it kind of track a little better, make it match up with what we're doing with the new movies. And I, I don't think it quite lands, you know, as an adult look watching the films, I don't think it quite works.

I think that a lot of the special edition changes, there are some of them that I like, because, and, and we can get into that too, because my first version of star wars that I saw was the 2004 DVD

[00:26:25] JOSH: right. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

[00:26:27] KEITH: Yeah. so um, so we can get into the, yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

[00:26:32] JOSH: no, no, no, no, no, no. You finish your thought.

[00:26:34] KEITH: Yeah. So I was saying, you know, looking at it.

I can definitely tell that it's a movie from the seventies with nineties, CGI sequences kind of pasted into it, but there are certain changes in the special additions that are almost for me, kind of just preferred. It's almost like that's how I remember it so that I I'm thinking like, you know, I know a lot of, uh, a lot of people who grew up with it have a lot of fondness free U nub at the end of return of the Jedi.

I've always preferred the special edition version because I, you know, it just, it seemed more like, and obviously, maybe this is less important with the sequel trilogy now, but it seemed like, well, this is a grand ending to the

saga, you know, whereas return of the Jedi, it's like, uh, the, the original version.

It's kind of like, even if we're just taking it in the context of the original trilogy, like, it just, it feels like a very small scale. Ending for kind of a big story, like, like it felt a little bit of a mismatch for me. Um, so like there's some changes like that. Things like, um, I like the, the scene they added between bigs and, and Luke in a new hope.

I kind of missed that when I watched the original version. Um, and just to, to clarify, I've watched like almost every version at this point, I've watched fan edits. Like I know, I know you talked to Hal, uh, 9,000, he's done version, and these might actually be, I don't know if they're my preferred versions, but they're one version that I enjoy watching, which is, he's kind of done a, tried to do a best of both worlds approach with taking some of the changes from the special editions and some stuff from the original versions and kind of mashing it together.

And I can, I, I enjoy those versions. I enjoy watching the original versions, what I want to really see the filmmaking craft and. Kind of what they were working with at that time. And I think that's why obviously they should release, they should release the original versions. I mean, I don't think I need to tell you that, but, um, but, um, but I, you know, I, I just, actually, I was just at Tanglewood in, um, Massachusetts up in the Berkshires where, um, they were doing a concert version of the empire strikes back and they were, they were playing the score live, um, with the film and they were using, I think it was, you know, and the, the thing is I'm at the point, I'm enough of a nerd now where I can track instantly, like, which version it is, like just by the color grade

[00:29:10] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:29:11] KEITH: So it's like, they were, they were using the 2011, um, version and I,

[00:29:17] JOSH: Uh, the one with like the, the blue sort of,

[00:29:20] KEITH: Yeah.

Yeah. So, and because it was projected on a big, it was like outdoors and it was projected on a. A big SCR, you know, it wasn't like a, it wasn't like I was watching it in a pristine presentation in a movie theater. So the color grading was less of an issue,

but like, um, and I, I can only assume that Disney just hasn't because I believe they have special versions where the score is not, I mean, I'm not a hundred percent on this, but I believe for those kinds of events, they use a version where the score is removed, um, from the film so that they can play the score live.

And I

[00:29:55] JOSH: Yeah, I think so, because I think that that, that it's probably the music is probably on its own, uh, channel. So you could probably

[00:30:02] KEITH: yeah. And I just assumed Disney, Disney hasn't, um, you know, mastered a new version of that based on the 2019 release, the Disney plus version, I assume they just haven't, uh, gotten around to that yet, but it was the 2011 version and I still enjoyed the heck out of it. I mean, I think empire is probably the least, Hurt

by some of the Yeah.

and there's some changes I can almost split the difference on like, I like that. Ian McDermidd is the emperor,

[00:30:30] JOSH: Well, well, you kind of need that. Uh, because like, if this movie has any hope of, working as the fifth movie,

[00:30:40] KEITH: yeah,

[00:30:40] JOSH: and McDermot in that scene,

[00:30:42] KEITH: yeah. And you need,

[00:30:43] JOSH: other version only works if you've never seen the emperor before, and you're trying to maintain that sort of air of mystery.

But if you're, if you have any hope of that movie, working as, a part of the saga, you need that change.

[00:30:57] KEITH: Yeah. And that's how I feel, you know, and I think some of the special edition stuff like that, like the continuity fixes and stuff, I like, I do feel like the execution could be better in some places, like, for example, the in McDermot emperor, it's very clear that he just, he was on the set of a revenge of the

[00:31:13] JOSH: Of revenge. The death.

[00:31:14] KEITH: pulled it.

They just pulled him aside. Yeah. And same with, you know, Hayden at the end of, so I know this is a really contentious one, but I'll tell you when I was a kid and I watched Return of the Jedi and it was Hayden at the end, I cried.

[00:31:28] JOSH: no, that's again, that's another one of those changes. That's another one of those changes that again. I think if you have any hope of this working in that intended order, that's a needed change. Um, how did you feel? Genetic curiosity? Seeing Sebastian Shaw's face under the mask, because like it seems to me and I was just watching, in the wake of, the obiwan show, I think I saw, kind of like a face replacement of Hayden

[00:31:56] KEITH: Yeah. I, I I've

[00:31:58] JOSH: scene.

It's not great, but

[00:32:00] KEITH: that. Yeah.

[00:32:01] JOSH: yeah, but, but, but the idea though, that not seeing his face under that mask in that moment,

[00:32:09] KEITH: yeah. yeah.

You know, I

I kind of accepted it because the thing is Alec Guinness is also not Ewan McGregor. I

mean, like, so I, I just, I just kind of accepted that.

Okay. This guy plays the old version of Anakin Skywalker, and I

guess what

he really,

[00:32:26] JOSH: the question. So let me

[00:32:27] KEITH: yeah.

[00:32:28] JOSH: Do you accept, do you identify with that man? Do you see that as the same character?

[00:32:37] KEITH: I did when I watched it as a kid, I definitely did.

I think, um, I think, uh, like it wasn't, it was never unclear to me that that was Anakin, you know, and

obviously they did some minor changes. Like they, they took his eyebrows off to

try to make it and change the color of his eyes to kind of make it match Hayden.

So, yeah. I, I didn't have any trouble buying that when I watch it now I'm kind of like, okay, this is what, uh, 25 years after Revenge of the Sith I'm like this guy is very old and Naden was, was

[00:33:10] JOSH: Well, well the same thing with Alec Guness and Ewan

[00:33:13] KEITH: yeah, although,

[00:33:14] JOSH: those twin sons age you twice as fast.

[00:33:17] KEITH: yeah, although someone pointed out to me that, you know, looking at the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, Again, this is actually the correct age.

Like he's, um, he was like in, I believe his late fifties or early sixties when they

[00:33:31] JOSH: Yeah, I think he was like, I think, I think he was like 57. Yeah.

[00:33:34] KEITH: Yeah. And, um, and even McGregor's, you know, you know, in his late forties now, I think, and he

[00:33:41] JOSH: I think he, I think he might be 50.

[00:33:43] KEITH: yeah. And he

was th in his thirties when yeah, he was in his thirties when Revenge of the Sith came round. So like, it, it tracks actually, it's just that Alec Guinness looks like a super old guy, regardless

of like what his actual age was.

[00:33:56] JOSH: well, yeah, well, so back in the day, people used to look older and now it's like with like, you know, skin care and,

[00:34:04] KEITH: I,

[00:34:05] JOSH: Like, like everyone looks like a

[00:34:07] KEITH: that was

funny to me where there were, um, it was, I enjoyed the Obi-Wan Kenobi series a lot, despite

[00:34:14] JOSH: loved it. I thought it was great.

[00:34:15] KEITH: Yeah. I mean, it probably could have been a movie, like, I'll say that, but I, but I think for what we got, I, I really enjoyed it. And,

but one thing that Def definitely stood out to me was Leia making like a bunch of comments about like how Obi-Wan looks like this decrepit old guy.

And I'm like, I'm like, that's Ewan McGregor, like, he looks, he looks stunning. Like,

[00:34:37] JOSH: looks younger. He, he, he looks younger than I do.

[00:34:40] KEITH: yeah. He looks, he looks younger. Yeah. I

mean, yeah.

He looks, he looks wonderful. So I'm like, how dare you lay it? But like, clearly they were trying to kind of harmonize it with, with, uh, his depiction in the original trilogy.

So to kind of just like, oh, he's old. Like, you you'll have to tell me he's older because I don't see it, you know? Um, but, uh, yeah.

[00:35:05] JOSH: Well, so I have a couple of questions for you, uh, based on some, some things you said, um, you said there are some things in the prequels that kind of pull you out when you watch it. Now, uh, I'm curious what a couple of those things might be,

[00:35:22] KEITH: um, one is, I feel like there's, especially in the, I mean, it's in all three, but it's especially hits me in the, in the first two is there's a lot of tonal mismatch in the prequels, um, where I felt like the, the original trilogy has a pretty consistent tone. I mean, obviously Empire is darker than a new hope, but, but it all kind of tracks, whereas the prequels and I, I think this was just kind of George being a little goofy and, and wanting to put homages in to, to things that he liked.

So we have the, the diner and, uh, Attack of the Clones, or we have the two-headed announcer in

Phantom Menace. So like some of those things feel like, okay, that doesn't really feel like, part of the, the star wars world, the world that he's created feels like something from our world that he's kind of plucked and put a direct analog in there.

So I,

[00:36:16] JOSH: that's a good point. Yeah.

[00:36:18] KEITH: yeah. So those kind of take me out a little bit, some of the humor, especially in Phantom menace, like it's not as bad in the other two, but, um, I actually like some of the humor in the prequels, I, I think, um, it depends on the actor. I think Ewan McGregor especially does a good job. He, he give George gives him a lot of cheesy kind of one liners, but he's just, he's so charismatic that I feel like they just kind of land.

I, I just kind of enjoy Obi-Wan's kind of snarkiness. I think. The jar of it all and that stuff, you know, doesn't land as well. For me now, you know, as a kid, I was like, okay, whatever, you know, it's a comic relief character. I don't really love it, but it's like, it doesn't take me out of the movie. Whereas now I'm like, okay, you know, you could have, approach that differently.

And also there's kind of an element of that. A lot of people have rightfully brought up of, and I, again, I think this is George, just kind of referencing the pen homage to the things that he, he liked from older films, but there is kind of like a racial element to some of the characters, the characters and The Phantom Menace that

[00:37:29] JOSH: Yeah. I

[00:37:30] KEITH: uncomfortable. Yeah.

[00:37:32] JOSH: Yeah. Like the Neimoidians kind of feel like they're like, you know, Fu Manchu villains out of like

[00:37:37] KEITH: Yeah. Mm-hmm

[00:37:38] JOSH: stuff like, like, and, um, you know, Watto kind of feels like an uncomfortable, like, you know,

[00:37:44] KEITH: Yeah,

[00:37:45] JOSH: or middle Eastern stereotype, but, my real belief is that these are homages to things that he loves, but, the problem with just straight up, you know, referencing something you love, that was a product of another culture. You're also bringing along with it, all of the, the implicit, you know, cultural attitudes.

So without, Looking at those things with a critical eye, you, you are, you are inadvertently perpetuating those same stereotypes without realizing that that's, what you're doing. So when he says it's not racist, I believe him.

but, when I hear someone, who is a member of one of those groups, see it, and they say it is racist.

They are also correct.

Do you think, do you think that, there's so little Jar Jar in Attack of the Clones, do you think that's a result? The fan reaction to the character from The Phantom Menace? Or do you think that, , you know, George Lucas was like, okay, we did that. And now the story's going somewhere else?

[00:38:39] KEITH: I think it might be a mix of factors. I mean, I I'm, George Lucas is definitely heard the, the fan, you know, you couldn't miss the fan reaction. So I do think maybe there was an element of that. I also think it was just a very different type of story. I mean, the fando menace, um, it's very much about it's, it's a very like Chi you know, the movie kind of has a childlike feel to it cuz it's about a child.

I mean, it's like, um, you know, I actually, you know, a lot of people like to think of some of the decisions that George has made in the prequels. Um, you know, and, and again, to talk a little bit about kind of my evolution in my relationship with the prequels, I, I had a period in, um, I would say about in college, you know, in my, uh, late teens, early twenties, when I, I, you know, I kind of.

Um, swallowed the line that the prequels are, are just garbage. They're just, um, you know, there there's nothing worthwhile. Like I, I think that was around the time where the, the, uh, red letter

[00:39:47] JOSH: Oh plan.

[00:39:48] KEITH: reviews came out and, you know,

I was a, I was an impressionable film student and I I'm like, wow, these critiques are like so smart.

And like, I'm gonna be smart and not like these movies. And so I, I honestly feel bad. I think I was a bit insufferable

with

[00:40:06] JOSH: we all, we, all, we all are at that age. You

[00:40:10] KEITH: yeah.

[00:40:11] JOSH: Uh, the plan, the, the effect of those play videos on the conventional wisdom about the quality of those films, I think cannot be understated because what's so interesting to me is that he does make a lot of valid observations, but, but, the vitriol and the entitlement.

[00:40:32] KEITH: yeah,

[00:40:33] JOSH: Uh, you know, which again, like, like is like he is, he's literally playing a character, so I get that

[00:40:39] KEITH: Yeah. it's played up. yeah.

[00:40:41] JOSH: yeah. So I get that, it's like a part of, the whole stick, but, but it's just so mean spirited

[00:40:48] KEITH: yeah. It's

uncharitable there, there

[00:40:50] JOSH: yes, yes. It's

[00:40:51] KEITH: Yeah. There isn't even really an attempt to kind of interrogate or explore like what George was trying to do with the movies. It's just kind of like, and that that's, that's something I have struggled with with a lot of the prequel criticism is I think it's, you know, there's a lot of problems with those movies and it totally makes sense to point them out.

I think some things, some decisions George made people attribute. To incompetence that were very intentional. And like, so for example, something like making Anke a child in the first movie, that's something that a lot of people are like, why, like there's no reason to do that. Like why would they do that?

Why do I wanna see? And I know there's the famous pat Oswald, um, uh, standup routine. I, I love pat Oswald, but like where he's kind of like, I don't want, why would I wanna see Darth Vader as a baby? Why would I wanna see Bobba fed as a baby? Like, what is, you know, and I, I think what he was trying to do was, and I think it's all said in that poster of that poster of episode one that's, it's, Anakin standing, uh, a kid Anakin on tattooing and you've got the shadow of Darth Vader kind of looming up, um, behind him.

And I think he's trying to show that even like the worst villains, even the scariest villains, like they were just kids too, you know, they were. You know, they were, he was just a kid, you know, and that, it's kind of like trying to add depth or dimensionality in some way is like, yeah, it's like, nobody's born evil.

You know, you, you're a, you

start out and you're a kid like every other kid. And I, I think that's what he was trying to say. And I think even with Bova

fat, he was trying to say something similar of like, you know, he's this grizzled bounty hunter, but he got that way because, you know, he lost his father and he was kind of, you know, raised on the streets kind of thing.

I, I, I, I think he was, you know, he was trying to, you know, give, you know, these, some of these characters that were very cool, but not super dimensional, um, trying to kind of make, give this kind of a sense that, you know, they came, they, they they weren't always that way. They, they started the same way as, as any other kid, you know?

And I, I, I appreciate that message even though, you know, I think it would've worked better. And I don't, I don't want to, you know, make, I don't wanna say anything ill of Jake Lloyd, cuz he was a child and he was doing the best. I'm sure he was doing exactly what George asked him to do, but I, I do think with a better perform, a better, they had a really good child performance there.

I think that totally could have worked like, like I, I think

[00:43:38] JOSH: I agree with you. Uh, there's actually interesting. Um, I think it's a New York times, , video where, , I don't know if you recall. , so on the beginning documentary on the Phantom MENA, , D V D they show the screen tests of the three finalists for Ann and Skywalker, and there was one of them who, , I think they even showed, , like it was between him and Jake Lloyd and they were talking about the pros and cons.

And obviously they went with Jake Lloyd, but this New York times video, , caught up with the other kid, today. , and, you know, it was just a really fascinating, , Like now knowing what the movie was and what Jake Lloyd went through. It was like a really interesting video. Maybe I'll link to it in the show notes,

[00:44:23] KEITH: think, I think George knew to a certain extent that he was, he wanted to play up Anakin as this kind of like UBIC little boy, like he

was, he was supposed to be a little over the top. He's kind of this idealized version of a little kid.

And while I don't think it totally works in the film, like, I don't think it was an accident that that's

[00:44:42] JOSH: It was not an accident. No, it was definitely very intentional. There are, there are two things. I think if you take out of the movie would make it work so, so much better the Yippy and the, um, the lines where it seems like when akin blows up the trade Federation ship at the end are.

Completely accidental. I think you can leave it exactly the same, but have it seem like he knows what he's doing.

[00:45:10] KEITH: And that's why, honestly, so, and, you know, I've alluded to original trilogy.com and, and fan edit it's I think. And you spoke with how previously? I, I think a lot of fan edits have done that and it's Testament that it works. It works well. It works a lot better when, when you make those changes. I, I think, um, you know, I made my own fan edits and that are BA heavily based on, on hows with some other changes from other edits.

And I, you know, I, I'm kind of like growing out of love with my own edits because. As I get older, I kind of like start to appreciate these movies more for what they were. And I,

[00:45:49] JOSH: Mm-hmm

[00:45:50] KEITH: I like, I like that how's edits are more, he's like, he's going in with the scalpel. Like he's

very his, the change.

Yeah.

[00:45:58] JOSH: he leaves more of it sort of

[00:45:59] KEITH: Yeah. The changes that he makes are very, like, they all have a very specific purpose. Um, whereas when I was doing my edits, a lot of times I was like, oh, that dialogue makes me cringe. I'm just gonna, you know, obviously I made sure that, um, you know, that the film works and makes sense, but it, but it does feel a little cut, you know, down to the bone a little bit.

And I think the, the way Hal kind of leaves a little more there is merit to that, in that it feels more like a film, you know, it feels more like a, a

[00:46:30] JOSH: like a George Lucas film, like, you know, like to go back a second to, you were talking about some of the, the tonal weirdness in.

P tremendous, especially, and like some of the humor is a little, like

[00:46:43] KEITH: yeah.

[00:46:44] JOSH: is a little, questionable, but that's, I mean, that's George Lucas.

[00:46:47] KEITH: Yeah.

[00:46:48] JOSH: he has an idiosyncratic

[00:46:50] KEITH: Yeah,

[00:46:50] JOSH: He's a goofy guy.

[00:46:52] KEITH: yeah,

[00:46:53] JOSH: like, I understand why some people cringe at certain moments, but for better or worse, like this is his movie, this is him. You're seeing him on the screen. So, so the reason, like to what you just said, I like how, how leaves in certain lines or certain moments that a lot of other fan editors will cut, uh, because it retains that character that the movie has. And I appreciate that. Like, again, as someone, you know, growing older and I view movies in a different way, and I am more aware of context, a more appreciative actually of seeing things that are unique that I haven't seen anywhere else, or I can't see anywhere else. And I think one of the strengths of star wars, and, and again, sometimes it doesn't work, but, um, one of the things I love about star wars is how it can it's it's so elastic the way that it can, uh, you know, on the one hand it can be hilarious.

It can be goofy, it can be, it can be very emotional and very serious. And it's like a movie it's a movie about the dangers of democracies becoming, ,

fascist empires with fart jokes. Like what is there, what is there to dislike about that?

[00:48:11] KEITH: I, I think, I think Ryan so gotta stand my man, Ryan Johnson. I think he put it really well. And I he's had a tweet. I forget how exactly he phrased it, but he is like

[00:48:22] JOSH: I know the tweet. I was just riffing on it. Yeah.

[00:48:24] KEITH: yeah.

Asked him what he thinks of the star wars peoples. And it's like George made a seven hour, movie about the dangers of, of fascia, of sliding into fascism for children.

And like, I think that's totally true and that, see, that's one thing I really appreciate about the prequel trilogy that I think, especially the force awakens, I feel like they took some of the wrong lessons in my opinion, from the, and I enjoy the forks awakens. I think it's a really good cover band.

Like, like I, I think it's a, it's a really, really well made homage to the original trilogy and the original star wars, um, more specifically, but. I think JJ Abrams was very afraid of touching anything, you know, and obviously you have to think about what the climate around star wars fandom was in 2015 or even 20 14, 20 13 when they were like conceptualizing and producing this, is like, he, he didn't want to touch the TRLs with a 10 foot pole.

I mean, there's like some oblique references to it. Like you have a, a mention of clone armies

and a mention of the SI a mention of the Sy somewhere, but that

that's still, honestly, that that's even more like a lot of that stuff was in early drafts or the novelization of the original trilogy. So like, I don't even really count that as a prequel reference.

Uh, I think, um, he wanted to make, there was a whole generation of fans who were like very jaded, you know, very put off by the prequels and he wanted to make star wars that, you know, would bring those fans back and felt like kind of a warm blanket. So I don't like, I don't, um, Fault him for that. But I do feel like, you know, one thing is like the politics, like to me, star wars has always been political and it's

one of the things.

[00:50:06] JOSH: is inherently

[00:50:07] KEITH: Yeah. It's one of the things. Yeah. If you,

[00:50:11] JOSH: yes,

[00:50:12] KEITH: yeah, if you listen to George, talk about it. It's, you know, I, I don't know if you've heard the interview he did with James Cameron

[00:50:19] JOSH: No, the rebels are the vie, the empires, the United States. Like it's a very, it's a very political story.

[00:50:26] KEITH: Yeah.

And I, I think with, and it's funny, cuz fans are always like, oh, the sequel trilogy, they made it political.

I'm like the force awakens is probably one of the least political star wars

films, in my opinion, because he, he consciously, he wanted to feel like, you know, warm and fuzzy. He, he veered away, you know, you have the Senate getting blown up, but you don't really have any context for it. You don't have any context for.

The universe, the, the state of the galaxy or the kind of like, what is this precise relationship between the resistance and the Republic

[00:50:59] JOSH: what even is the resistance?

[00:51:01] KEITH: yeah, exactly.

[00:51:02] JOSH: what are they resisting

[00:51:03] KEITH: yeah, he

[00:51:04] JOSH: it's like, so you're hitting on something that is, oh, you know, again, I do not fault JJ Abrams at all. Like his job, the job of the force awakens was to, to demonstrate. They could still make star wars movies that felt like the old, the old movies

and to rewind over the, the Goodwill that was sort of,

arguably lost.

But the problem for me with the sequel trilogy that I think I prefer the prequel trilogy in this regard, is that the sequel trilogy, isn't about anything.

[00:51:37] KEITH: here's what I would say to that. I, I think, I think the only film in the sequel trilogy that

[00:51:43] JOSH: the last Jedi.

[00:51:44] KEITH: yeah, that it's in conversation with the story, George Lucas was telling the sixth film story he was telling is the last Jedi, because

I feel like it's the only one that kind of picks up on the themes that the prequels were even putting down.

Because like, one thing that I love about the prequel is that a lot of older fans might have been put off by is that the Jedi are not so great. They're like, you know, they're bureaucrats, they're, you know, he took, obviously the Jedi have always been influenced by real world religion and he kind of took the aspect.

and not, not to call out any specific religion, but like, if you think of something like the Catholic church, like it's very bureaucratic, it's very large, you know, it's a, it's almost like a state in and of itself. and I think what George was trying to say with the Jedi is kind of, they became complacent.

They became, you know, they became part of the problem. And I think, you know, a lot of people had an issue with Yoda's characterization and it's kind of like, well, and I think Dave Fe talk, you know, kind of talks, um, about this too, and like his kind of series with the clone wars and all that kind of goes into this more, but like Yoda was kind of drinking the Kool-Aid and he was kind of caught up in this.

And I think he slowly, You know, when he's that character in empire strikes back that says wars not make one. Great. I think he's speaking from experience. He's not, you know, he's not a static character. He's a character who kind of learns from the experience of the prequel trilogy. And you know, maybe it's not all there in the text.

Maybe it's, it's a little bit subtext. I think George could have maybe been more clear in how he communicated some of these themes, but I don't, I don't, I like that they're there. And I like that Ryan Johnson picked up on that and he was like, well, we're gonna have Luke disillusioned with the Jedi. We're gonna have him, you know, saying the things that, that fans might've been saying about, about the Jedi and the prequel trilogy and, you know, I've always appreciated that,

[00:53:44] JOSH: Me too. That is actually what, what really surprised me. It actually still really surprises me, because, uh, because I read it the same way you did. I saw what, what Luke was saying , in that scene that you're referring to where, he's talking to Ray and he's essentially like, did you know that the Jedi like were X, Y, and Z and blah, blah, blah.

Um, uh, the way that I read that scene was like, Luke was the star wars fans who grew up on the original trilogy then saw the prequels. And so what the Jedi actually were, and he was bummed about it that movie is him and the fans rediscovering that there's, Still good there and to kind of re fall in love with it. I mean, that was my read.

[00:54:28] KEITH: No, I think that's a very good and accurate read. I, I would say though, that I do think, I do think that was, there was some intention out. I think when George did that in the prequels, you know, you might say like, that's an happy accident that Ryan Johnson picked up on and turned it into something.

I, I would push back against that. I would say, I think that intentionality was there in the prequels to show, you know, the Jedi is complicit and show the Jedi is fallible and

bureaucratic.

I, yeah, mm-hmm, I, I think, and maybe it was different than what fans expected, and, and one thing I did want to talk about is kind of watching the films in one through six order versus watching the original trilogy first and kind of how

the story kind of reads differently is I think, I don't necessar. So I will, I will disclose if I were to introduce someone to star wars for the first time, I would have them watch the original trilogy first, even

though that's not the way that, that I grew up with it,

because I think, there are aspects of those films. Well, the main thing is I think a new hope is a better introduction to the star wars universe than The Phantom menace.

I think The Phantom Menace can be an offput movie for a lot of people. And I don't, I kind of, it's kind of like an idea of like put the best foot forward is one of the reasons. And then the other reason is that, you know, I do think to some extent, you know, and I don't think, I think George was trying to kind of have his cake in needed too.

He wanted to have it. So there's additional context to the prequels if you've seen the original trilogy first, but also a kid watching him one through six can watch him in that order and it'll work as well. And I think, it mostly works, but I think there are some things like, for example, just what the Force is like that's explained really succinctly and beautifully in A New Hope and doesn't really get, or like what a Jedi is like, that stuff is not really, you're just kind of thrust into it, which, you know, has kind of, you know, it's pros and cons, but I, I guess it's just, I think A New Hope works better as an introduction to the Star Wars universe.

I almost wish I, I, it's almost my preferred way to show them would be watch the original trilogy first. Then watch the prequels, then watch the original trilogy again. after having watched the prequels and because there are certain aspects of the original trilogy that I actually enjoy more because of having seen the prequels.

I think,

[00:57:02] JOSH: like what, as an example,

[00:57:03] KEITH: Well, I, I think I just connect more to, you know, and, you know, people, you gonna have any things you wanna say about, you know, Hayden Christian center? I, I think he's a great actor. I think he is not, given the best, you know, dialogue or direction to work with. I think George just wasn't really concerned with that.

And I, I,

you know, that's fine. That's what the movie he was making, but if you watch a movie like shattered glass, I

[00:57:28] JOSH: Yeah, no, he's

[00:57:29] KEITH: uh, Hayden Christensen is a good actor. And I think even if you watch the Cano lb one Kenobi.

[00:57:34] JOSH: He's great in Kenobi.

[00:57:35] KEITH: he's great. Yeah. So, but I think even regardless of, of that, or, or I think just having seen the downfall and having seen that character evolve, there was just more weight you know, when, um, obviously it ruins the twist of, of, um, Darth Vader is Luke's father, but it almost turns like kind of the situational irony into dramatic irony.

It's kind of like now,

you know, he's his father, but he doesn't know that.

So you're kind of like, oh, like when is he gonna find out, you know, what, how is he gonna find out so that there is still kind of like a, it does work. It just works differently. Um, it's, you're not, uh, Luke isn't as much an audience surrogate.

You're, you're looking at it from a more omniscent kind of perspective. And, um, I think that wor you know, it worked for me as a kid. I think it works. It just is different. You know, I think also if we're being real, um, if I'm gonna introduce a friend or, or anybody to Star War, They probably know that Darth Vader's Luke's father.

even if they've never seen a star wars movie, I think there's this kind, it's such a pop cultural touchstone. I, I think the, the kind of platonic ideal of they're gonna watch the original movies and they're gonna, they're gonna be surprised by the twist. I just think

it's not something

[00:58:56] JOSH: Yeah. Like that's out the window. Yeah. The other thing too. Uh, the other thing too, is that I do think that that twist is really over signified in terms of like, Like the shocked value of it is, is sort of. Besides the point, like it's not supposed to be like a gotcha, but, but, but because of the, the huge effect it had in popular culture, like it, kind of became that when it's like, you know, really, what it really is is this character learning the worst thing he could possibly learn

[00:59:32] KEITH: Which is why also Rey's parents should have stayed

as

[00:59:36] JOSH: nobody because that's the worst could learn

[00:59:38] KEITH: Yeah. Um,

but,

[00:59:40] JOSH: on the same page when it to the Jedi was trying to.

[00:59:45] KEITH: yeah so I think even if you go, you watch the prequels first and then you watch the original trilogy.

I, I think it still works because the original trilogy they're just really solid movies and because I think a great twist or a great plot point, it works not just because it's a surprise for the audience, but. It resonates with the characters and, and kind

of what they're what they're going through.

So I, and I think that works, you know, the, the, I am your father that works, whether you know it or not, because it's, it's what it means to Luke in that moment, like you were saying.

So, and, um, and there are kind of like dimensions. So specifically I'm thinking of New Hope. When I, when I've watched the prequels first, there are definitely things that read differently than if you watch A New Hope.

And that's your first movie and you don't know anything else about Star Wars. Like, for example, like when Owen says, you know, he's afraid that he has too much of his father in him, like, I'm like, oh, I, you know, that, that kind of reads differently, you know, versus like, when you're first watching the film, when it first came out, you might think, oh, you know, he's just, his father was reckless.

So

[01:00:56] JOSH: Yeah, like he's gonna, like, he's, he's gonna be like a spice runner or something.

[01:01:00] KEITH: Yeah. But now it's like, it's much more. Ominous, you know,

it's kind of like, um, and, uh, I think of OB, you know, and I, I know a lot of people feel like, oh, the Clone Wars, it was best when, , you know, we didn't know anything about them, but I, I like, you know, for me when Obi-Wan is kind of reminiscing about the past, I kind of like having that added, layer of like, as an audience kind of knowing, you know, what happened and kind of, thinking back to the character, played by Ewan McGregor who's.

So, you know, he's great. And he's, um, you know, he, he kind of channels Al Guinness so well, and, and kind of think about his adventures and I'm, I'm a big, so I'll tell you what kind of was my kind of prequel, you know, what the prequels were for the original trilogy fans. Surprisingly, that's what the CGI Clone War series was for me, when it first

came.

When I saw that and I saw, they gave Anakin a Padawan. I was like, what did, like, I'm like this isn't, you know, cuz here's the, the thing, I was a big fan of the GENI Tarkovsky

[01:02:11] JOSH: dude, those, those were great. Those were

[01:02:14] KEITH: Yeah. So that was actually, you know, I actually had watched those before I saw Revenge of the Sith. So to

me, I was a, as much as I enjoyed Revenge of the Sith and it's my favorite prequel.

I was a little let down with General Grievous cuz I'm like, hold on. Like this guy is kind of like he's in the micro series, he's this kind of, um, you know, like Alien meets Predator, he's this kind of like badass Jedi

hunting machine force of nature. Yeah. And in the movie, you know, he's kind of like the, you know, the mustache Toley villain who ties the lady up on the railroad tracks, you

[01:02:50] JOSH: Who has like a hacking cough?

[01:02:52] KEITH: yeah.

Who's like. And I get what George was go. He was George decided to take the character in a different direction. And you know, it's not like it is now with Disney where like everything's so carefully managed so that

everything lines up, George, you know, he had his movies and he would let you know, he, he saw the value in expanding the universe.

Obviously he saw the value in invest fan investment, but for his story that he was telling, he didn't care, you know, he, he

didn't care what any derivative stuff was doing, you know? So he gave them the concept, art of Grievous and was just kind of like go nuts. And then he ended up doing something different with the character.

So, um, but as a kid that kind of bothered me cuz I'm like, this is not the same, you know, I was looking forward to seeing this guy in a movie in live action and it was not what I was expecting, but, uh, anyway, yeah, back to the, the CGI Clone Wars when that first started. Yeah. I was like, this looks really.

Childish. It looks really goofy. Why is, uh, Anakin have a Padawan that. Doesn't make sense. They wouldn't trust him with a Padawan, and I just wrote it off completely. And I never watched it for, for a long time. I'm like this isn't for this clearly isn't for me, I, to me, the Clone Wars micro series is like too, it's too close to my heart.

I can't accept that. This seems to be rec coning that completely. So I just didn't watch it for a long time. And it wasn't until, um, I think when the, the series was all on Netflix, this was before everything moved over to Disney. Plus I, I was hearing a lot of good things about it. This was before season seven came out.

It was when, um,

you know, it had been canceled by

[01:04:37] JOSH: It happened canceled. Yeah.

[01:04:39] KEITH: Yeah.

So I was hearing good things about it and I'm like, all right, maybe I need to give this another chance and like, watch it with fresh eyes and. I really love that series. I, you know, I think it's really like the prequels. It is very rocky.

Sometimes there are certain episodes that are like, what are we even doing? But then there are other episodes that to me, and again, I'm talking as someone too who like animation, like to me a movie's a movie. Right. And it's no less Star Wars because it's animation to me. So I there's some moments in that series that are like up there with any star, like they're, they're some of the highlights of Star Wars for me.

So,

you

[01:05:22] JOSH: I've heard a lot of,

I've heard a lot of people say that and I'm gonna make an embarrassing confession that it will probably turn off a lot of people from ever listening to this podcast. Again, aside from a handful of episodes, I've not seen the cl war series.

[01:05:35] KEITH: That's okay. I mean, it, I

tried to get, I tried to get my friend into it. Um, who's also a, I mean, she's not, you know, she's not maybe as big a Star Wars fan now because The Rise of Skywalker, we had very similar kind of thoughts on The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker was kind of a big turn off for both of us, but it kind of broke her more than me.

And I've tried to get her to watch the Clone Wars' way of like, Hey, maybe this will get you back into Star Wars. This was before Mandalorian and some of the new series coming out. And she just could not get through the first couple seasons. It's rough. It's a, it's rough. The, the Clone War's movie that they, you know, again, you know, crazy George Lucas idea, he just released a couple episodes of a TV series cut

together and put it in Mo put it in a movie theater.

Yeah. It's, it's rough. It, you know, it's worse than any of the prequel films. I mean,

it's,

[01:06:31] JOSH: you suggest. so hypothetically speaking, if I were to try to watch the show, would you suggest that I watch it in order and just, try to

to stick it out for those first, rocky seasons? Or is there like a prefer, uh, because I know that like, the episodes are sort of all over the timeline, right?

It's not

[01:06:49] KEITH: Yeah. So here's my thing. I recommend, I, I believe I just watch it in the air date order, but I would actually recommend the chronological order,

um, which you can find online. And

I think that's because some of it was production stuff was reasons why certain episodes was air were aired later.

So I don't think the, yeah, I'm not sure. I know they did go back to earlier arcs and add more stuff, but I think it was always with the intent. I, I believe I'm not, you know, Dave flog has said clone wars, you can just kind of pick and choose which ones you want to watch. And, and I think that's, you know, and I think that's true to a certain extent, but I do think there is kind of like an evolution to the characters that you miss.

If you don't watch. You know, if you don't watch certain parts, you know, because maybe they're rougher than other parts. I think, um, I recommend the chronological order. I think, you know, it's definitely intent, you know, there's nothing about it. That's not intended. Like it's not like the prequels where you, it's a very different experience.

It's just kind of like, it just, it's just less jarring to watch it in the chronological order, in my opinion. So, now in terms of like a, at abridged viewing guide or, or something like that, I made one a while back, uh, in terms of like what episodes, I think you can safely skip, et cetera. But honestly I would, you know, in the spirit of George Lucas, I would recommend just watching through it, you know, just not liking the stuff you don't like and, uh, liking the stuff you like.

I,

[01:08:19] JOSH: I agree with that. That's my style too. Like if I'm gonna watch a show or a movie series, I just wanna watch it all the way that it came out.

[01:08:25] KEITH: Yeah.

And that, that's why, even though I've made my own fan edits and I really like other fan edits, like hows, when I'm gonna show somebody Star Wars for the first time, I'm, I'm showing them the original version. You know, I'm showing them the films as the filmmaker intended it because I, well, in terms of, as the filmer, at least as the filmmaker intended it at some point, because I don't know if I'm gonna show them the special additions um, but, uh, but I'm, I'm gonna show them, you know, I, I don't want, you know, I feel like even if a fan edit is more effective and if like, hypothetically, if that was the movie released in theaters, maybe we would've all liked it a little more.

I, I think you have to, you know, a film is still, you know, regardless of how commercial is or whatever, it's a piece of art created by a filmmaker and you should kind of, you should view the, the piece of art as they created it first, before you watch. And the fan edits are more like. What I would do on a rewatch or like as a, as an alternative version.

Um, but it's

not,

Yeah.

Plus I think it puts you on the same when it comes to the conversation and the discourse around the movies, it puts you off on the wrong foot because you've watched a different version than like 99% of people have watched. So it, it

kind of, um, so like certain details will be different.

So like, if, if someone's talking about how, Padme, you know, died at the end of revenge of the SI and you're like, wait a minute, I watched the Hal 9,000 version and

she, you know, like, I, I think it's important to have a baseline for what the films were before you, you know, as, as I love fan edits.

And I think it's a really cool community. And I, you know, I am kind of, I don't wanna wanna say necessarily death of the author, but like, you know, I do feel like once a piece of media is put out into the universe, the

audience. Yeah,

the audience can kind of do whatever they want with it. But the thing is the original version still, is still the version.

And that's the version that I would show to somebody if I was showing them the first time. So,

[01:10:28] JOSH: I agree. I, I respect that a lot. I think you're, I think you're right on the

[01:10:31] KEITH: yeah. And that's how I feel about Clone Wars. Um, I mean, so there is, I will say, um, going back to original trilogy.com, there is a fan edit. Someone's doing a really ambitious fan edit series of the entire series, which like, is kind of like blows my mind that somebody would fan at it, you know, six seasons of a television show.

[01:10:54] JOSH: you mean they're making like one long film

[01:10:58] KEITH: no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

They are, they are re conceptual. Some episodes are combined. Others are not like they're re they're reconceptualizing it as. I think a a shorter number of seasons and with like hour long episodes, like they're, recuting it into a, to they're basically they they've been. So, uh, the crater is somebody who goes by the name of Eddie Dean on fan, edit it, or sorry, on original trilogy.com.

And it's called I think clone wars refocused. And basically he's trying to conceptualize it in a style in a, um, kind of a content style, much closer to something like the Mandalorian where like the

episodes are, the episodes are like as long as they need to be.

Um, you know, whereas clone Moores was very much a 30 minute, uh, or 20, 22 minute, whatever, you know, with commercials for cartoon network, he's kind of reconceptualized it as a, as a different kind of thing.

He's changed, like the opening and outro credits still like really just changed the tone and like, he makes lots of cuts. He combines episodes. The idea is really because there's so much fluff and there's so much what, what people call, you know, I'm not the super fan of the term all the time, but like filler there's a lot of filler episodes.

So like,

[01:12:18] JOSH: I'm not a fan of that term.

[01:12:20] KEITH: yeah. But, but, so the idea is really like, if somebody won't sit down with Ewan watch the whole series, you could show them this as kind of like, this is what you need to kind of like, because obviously with the stuff Dave felons doing now with the Mandalorian book of Bobette and now, especially this Asoka series, that's coming out Clone Wars and Rebels are like foundational to some of, you know, like

the whole character of a yeah,

[01:12:49] JOSH: for, sure. That's why I am seriously contemplating trying to find the time in my life to watch those series, because I am interested in, in seeing a

[01:12:58] KEITH: yeah. I would say it's so fun. My, my initial reaction to the cl war series is so funny because like the biggest sticking point for me was Ashoka. And it wasn't from like, you know, I know certain people, you know, obviously there's gross elements of the Star Wars fan fandom who are like, oh, a girl in star wars.

Like, it

was never that it was never that, but it was kind

[01:13:18] JOSH: I know. Yeah. You don't strike me as that kind of guy.

[01:13:20] KEITH: Yeah. Kind of like, uh, yeah, wrapping my head around the idea that Anakin had a Padawan between episodes two and three that we'd never heard about in the movies. Like it was almost like a bridge too far for me at the time. And,

but after I watched the series to me, the character of Ashoka is essential to star wars and essential to, um, the, uh, the, even the, the arc of the prequel trilogy.

Like, even though she's, even though she's not in the films, so much of her relationship with Anakin. Like informs that character in a way that it was almost in a way a little, I don't wanna say, do over, but like a, it adds a lot more shading to the character. Like if something like the relationship with Padme, or even the relationship with Obi-Wan, which mostly works for me, although there are issues with it in the, in the prequel trilogy, Ashoka is kind of like another anchor for that character to kind of, to really land that, that theme of him being, having a hard time letting go of things, you know?

And, and that's like kind of a, a concept with his character in the prequel trilogy is that he has, he gets attached. He gets attached to people

[01:14:33] JOSH: Yeah. That's the reason for his downfall ultimately.

[01:14:36] KEITH: Yeah. I'm not saying that's a good, you know, and I kind of subscribed to the belief with my philosophy of Star Wars. And I think it's the one that, that resonates with me is that attachment, you know, the Jedi were wrong to.

Totally cut off attachments that there has to be a balance. Like I I'm, you know, I'm

a big fan of the idea of balance and that there needs to be balance in anything. And, you know, the spiritual aspects of the Jedi and, and the kind of philosophical aspects have always interested me. And the, the way I kind of see it is again, the may and this may why vibe so much with The Last Jedi is, um, is, you know, that it's about balance and it's about, um, you know, not this kind of rigid dogmatic view, not to use the same words that Altine uses intervention, the sip, but

[01:15:22] JOSH: No, no, but no,

but that's the thing though, but that's the thing that I appreciated about that is that

[01:15:28] KEITH: Cause he's not wrong. Yeah. He's not wrong. Yeah. And you know, the Sith the, where he is wrong is that, you know, the SI are no better, you know, the Sith are worse, but like

the, the Jedi are, you know,

[01:15:41] JOSH: Like, context matters, like intent

[01:15:43] KEITH: yeah,

[01:15:44] JOSH: like, you know, it's interesting what you just said because my, my sort of read of where the Jedi order went wrong and where we find them during the time of the prequel movies is that, uh, you know, uh, they're heavily influenced obviously by, Buddhist philosophy in the real world and all

sorts of,

[01:16:02] KEITH: Mm-hmm

[01:16:02] JOSH: know, so, I feel like the Jedi realized that that attachment and unhealthy attachment is one of the things that will lead one to go to the dark side and as with any large institution, what their solution was.

Okay, well, we'll just make no one allowed to have any attachments and we don't have to worry about that ever happening. Right. But then what they did was they created the sort of emotionally, uh, these ill equipped, kind of inhuman weirdos that when a problem was staring them right in the face, like, uh, one of my favorite scenes in Revenge of the Sith is when Anakin goes to Yoda and he's basically asking for help, he's like help me.

Like I'm having all these like dreams of, and all Yoda can say is you have to train yourself to not be afraid of losing what you love. And that is not helpful. Yoda is not meeting. Anakin where he is. He doesn't have the tools to help Anakin. And it's so interesting because in that scene, that scene is Anakin, he's, he's asking for help.

He's like I have a problem. Help me something bad is happening. I need help. And the Jedi are totally ill-equipped, to do anything about it.

[01:17:18] KEITH: Exactly. And I think to me, and that's a feature, not a bug, you know, it's it's um, yes. Yoda, you might say, why is Yoda so cold? He's such a warm character in the original trilogy. I, I think to me it totally makes sense. It shows the progression of that character and that he kind of lost sight maybe of what, what it was all really about.

And I, I think, um, yeah, and that's why I love The Last Jedi too is cuz it picks up on that theme and it kind of like pauses, you know, maybe there's a third path kind of thing where

[01:17:52] JOSH: it also reiterates that he learned something.

that he was trying to impart,

to Luke and Empire. And then that scene with the two of them in front of the, burning fire is when it really crystallizes, like the journey that Yoda went on.

[01:18:07] KEITH: That scene. Yeah. That scene is one of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars.

And it's be it's because that's what it's all about. Especially watching the Kenobi series recently, too. It's like, you know, Yoda, he, Yoda failed Kenobi failed and then Luke failed, but it's, it's okay. They, you know, they, they pick up the pieces, they, they kind of learn from their mistakes and they impart onto the next generation.

And hopefully they'll be able to pick up the mantle and make things a little better. And that's why to me, if there is a theme, an overarching theme to the sequel trilogy, it's kind of the idea of the cyclical nature of, um, you know, cuz it may be a happy accident, like force awakens, just kind of reestablished, a lot of the same, um, entities that kind of exist.

New versions of the same entities that existed in. Um, the original trilogy, you know, with the first order and the resistance, but, but I think last year I kind of turns that into like, um, you know, it's kind of like, it's, it's commenting on kind of the way things kind of, um, happen in cycles. Luke failed the same way that Yoda and Obi-Wan kind of failed him to a certain extent.

And, um, so, so I, I, to me, that kind of resonates. And to me last, Jedi is kind of about breaking that cycle, you know, and it's kind of about, um, you know, how every generation, you know, is gonna be a little better than the last and, and kind of learn from the mistakes of the last generation. I don't know that that was always really resonant with me and that, that's why to me, the prequels too, are, even if there's a lot about them, that doesn't work, especially, you know, fan of menace and clones they're essential star wars to me, because to me, a lot of those.

They strengthen a lot of those, those themes come from reading it as one big story, you know? Um,

whereas it, Yeah.

And, you know, I think I definitely recommend clone wars because I think in its best moments, it kind of captures a lot of the same themes and it will adds a lot of, you know, it adds a lot of, I don't know if dimensionality is the right word, maybe more like emotionality to Anakin, to just as a character that I just feel for him so much more than when watching the, the saga films where he, you know, he really, I think there it's fair to say that the Anan character didn't quite land, maybe the way Lucas wanted him to, for a lot of people in the prequel trilogy that, that they didn't find him sympathetic or they didn't find him.

Um, you know, Relatable. And, you know, I think he want, Lucas wants you to feel really awful when he turns to the dark side, you know, you want to feel for him. And I think you do to a certain extent, but I think some of the stuff in clones, it doesn't, you know, there's this tendency of in clones, I feel like, and this is why it's one of my lesser star wars films.

Is this idea that he was kind of a bad seed like that. He's

kind of already exhibiting these kind of like, um, this tendon, you know, like to me, the, a big mistake in the prequel Chilli is, is when he confesses, um, slaughtering the Tuscans to padme. And

she just kind of, and

[01:21:37] JOSH: She just kind of shrugs it off. Yeah.

[01:21:39] KEITH: yeah, you could say it's making a commentary about toxic relationship, you know, and that that's the charitable way to read.

It is like how in a toxic relationship, you know, people will accept the abuse of the, of the. Partner because they they're kind of looking at them through rose tinted glasses. That's like one way I could kind of like defend that,

[01:21:59] JOSH: And even then it's kind of like, it's, it's a bit of a stretch, again, I think, Lucas was, referencing something he loved, which is, uh, the searchers. And I think he didn't necessarily view the Tuscans as, fully realized humans, , which I actually thought was, one of my favorite things about

the Bobba series.

I mean, say what you will about that, but the way that they really. developed, the Tuscans and now I actually make a point, never to refer to them as sand people. because I feel like that's sort of like a, I mean, I know that like, you know, we're talking about like a fantasy universe and nothing's really anyway, but like, I feel like it's a bit of a, dismissive racist thing to call them

[01:22:42] KEITH: yeah, yeah. And I think, and in a way it was kind of evolving, you know, if we're looking through the lens of westerns, like it was evolving that depiction from like a fifties or, or something

depiction to like a nine, a nineties dances with

wolves, you know, but I think if there's also another layer on it, because Tamora Morrison is an indigenous

[01:23:03] JOSH: Yes, exactly.

[01:23:05] KEITH: I think it's a little there. It's, it's a little bit of an inversion of dances with, well, because instead of the white man, you know, kind of becoming the best native, it's an indigenous actor playing that character. So it's

[01:23:16] JOSH: Exactly. who's sort of helping his, fellow indigenous, uh,

[01:23:20] KEITH: So I, I give them a lot of credit for that.

My only wish is that instead of. Then wiping out the whole Tuscan camp, just as motivation for him. I wish that they had played into

the, you know

[01:23:33] JOSH: like, especially in the finale.

[01:23:35] KEITH: yeah. When he kind of builds that coalition, he's kind of building his coalition and I really, I wish the Tuscans kind of became a

part of that, you

[01:23:44] JOSH: too, me too. And that's where I thought it was going.

[01:23:46] KEITH: Yeah.

Boo bok is interesting cuz it, I think like the prequels it's, it can be pretty uneven, but I Al you know, I enjoyed it quite a bit and I think, one thing that really stood out to me as a prequel fan that I'm like, oh, that's so George Lucas was the vests, you know what everyone made a HLU about

[01:24:05] JOSH: No. Yeah. The biker gang. Yeah, the Vespa gang. Yeah. That was very Lucas. That was like the diner and Attack of the Clones.

like at the yellow hot rod speeder. Like that's what that, that was

[01:24:15] KEITH: Yeah, cuz Lucas loves, I mean, he made American Graffiti, he

loves classic cars. He loves these like fifties aesthetic, uh, the 1950s kind of kit aesthetic. And I, I thought that, that, yeah,

and there were so many, there were so many fans who were like, you know, and I understand if it, if it kind of, you know, maybe it doesn't fit with the tattooing atmosphere, but there were so many fans that were like, you know, this isn't star wars and I'm like, this is so star

wars. This is George Lucas. Like

[01:24:44] JOSH: This is very star wars.

And the other thing about like, you know, this isn't, uh, TAing, like I think, science fiction and star wars in particular, tends to forget planets are big.

[01:24:55] KEITH: Yeah. Mm-hmm

[01:24:56] JOSH: like, like, every single style of clothing, every single accent that we know has all come from one planet.

So, so, so the idea that, that there's like a, a different flavor or a different side of this planet that we haven't seen, it sort of scans for me,

[01:25:15] KEITH: I was talking about the clone war's micro series before, and I think one of the things that really helped me in terms of the aesthetics of the prequels, not have an issue with it as as other fans maybe do, is that.

to me, the prequels are almost like, it's almost like a different medium. the original trilogy. It's like it's, it's storytelling a different mode. It's it? It's um, and to me, the fact that Star Wars, for me, it's sometimes animated, it's sometimes textual, you know, a book, you know, to be the fact that Star Wars could span so many different mediums, it kind of made it so that it didn't matter that it looked different.

Um, because it, it was just kind of a different, yeah, it was a different medium in a way. It was the digital filmmaking and the CGI. Wasn't naturalistic. It wasn't true to life, but it, it was telling that story. It, that was just a different medium to tell the story. And, um, so that's one thing I wanted to say.

[01:26:19] JOSH: I love that. I agree with you a hundred percent. Like, uh, my only quibble that, I'm not saying that I'm right, but, I love what you just said, but for me, the fact that that was supposed to be, part of one cohesive story. The, the, the separate, like changing mediums,

you know, in quotations, halfway through for me, was a little challenging.

[01:26:43] KEITH: Yeah. And I think it helps that there, it does help that there's a big time gap between the prequels and the, I mean, it's, it's not that big it's 20 years, but, um, which is maybe less than some people thought originally, but, it does help me a little bit, kind of, these are kind of sub-unit the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy are kind of sub-units of this larger story and they have their kind of own aesthetic sensibilities.

[01:27:06] JOSH: uh, did you know that, John Williams actually wanted to record a new main theme for the opening crawl for the

[01:27:13] KEITH: oh, wow. I think I might have heard that. Yeah, that's interesting.

[01:27:17] JOSH: And George Lucas said, no, it's gotta be the same theme, uh, because I wanted to be one thing, but in retrospect, hearing what you just said about like how, you know, like that sort of a sub-unit I actually kind of would've liked that.

Because I think that that would've helped, viewing the films as those sort of subunits, the way that you just described.

[01:27:37] KEITH: And I think that's what kind of, that ended up. He kind of, he maybe learned from his lessons a bit because with the Clone Wars series, I remember one direction from George Lucas was to Kevin Kinner. The composer from that, for that series is I don't want it to sound like John Williams. I want it, I want it to be its own thing.

And I think, I think that was in that case, that was kind of a smart decision. , and I think he does use the Williams themes, like very sparingly in certain moments. Um, much like, you know, the newer shows do like Mandalorian , , and Obi-Wan. And, but, um, you know, the music, there was much less Orca. There was orchestral aspects to it, but it was much more like poppy a little bit.

There was, you know, it wasn't quite the same. It wasn't the John Williams style much of the way that Mandalorian is kind of, you know, influenced by spaghetti westerns and its its

own style of music. Clone Wars has kind of its own style of music. And I think that was smart. I will say I wouldn't trade the scores for the prequel trilogy for anything though.

[01:28:43] JOSH: They're fantastic.

[01:28:44] KEITH: yeah. To me, to me and I, I, um, I used to listen to a podcast, called Star Wars Oxygen,

[01:28:53] JOSH: I was just telling my friend, I was just telling

someone about that

yesterday and I loved, I loved those podcasts.

[01:29:00] KEITH: And that became the soundtrack show when he started his own, , show. It's he, he works at Lucas film. I'm forgetting the name of the,

[01:29:08] JOSH: Yeah. I'm blAnaking on the name. I'll look it up because I just sent someone

[01:29:11] KEITH: Um, so I, I did kind of wanna talk a little bit what re what actually rehabilitated my enjoyment of the prequels, cuz like,

like I, yeah, like I said, I, you know, I went through a phase like where I was like, the prequels were the cool thing to hate or whatever.

And there were a few different things that I think rehabilitated my enjoyment one was, um, funny enough, the prequel memes, , community and subreddit, which I think has turned unfortunately a little bit toxic, like all star wars, fandom things have it's. Now it's kind of like the prequel memes because the prequels are better than the sequels, blah, blah.

You know, everything's a comp everything's a competition. But to me there's a camp, value in the prequels. And I, I don't mean that in like a,

[01:30:00] JOSH: derogatory way.

[01:30:01] KEITH: um, you know, in

like derogatory way. I, I love Revenge of the Sith and even some of the lines that are very corny, you know, I love them like the whole like exchange that like "General Kenobi," like "Hello there," like that.

I love all that stuff because you know, and it has a camp value. It's a bit larger than life. To me. Revenge of the Sith is a very maximalist film. And it's very, you know, it, it's very formalist. It's not concerned with depicting things as opposed to maybe something like Empire Strikes Back, which really is about the characters.

And it's about,

um, kind of NA yeah, naturalistic performances, kind of

real people, the way real people interact with each other. I think that's one thing that's helped me a lot with the prequels is it doesn't have to be the way real people interact because it's a fairytale. It's, it's a, it's a representation.

It's representation. It's representing a, a mode storytelling, much like in a musical. it doesn't matter that the characters break out in song, even though like in real life, people wouldn't do that. I kind of feel like the same way to a certain extent, you know, to a lesser extent about

Revenge of the Sith and the prequels is the performances are larger than life. You know, if you look at the best performance, in my opinion, the best performance in the prequel trilogy is Ian McDermidd. Um,

[01:31:23] JOSH: Yeah, no, because he knows exactly how to play it and he, and he hits it perfectly.

[01:31:28] KEITH: And it's camp, you know, it's camp it's, um, you know, it's not a lot of times it's not subtle, it's not understated, it's overstated.

but that's a valid stylistic way of doing it. And I think, that's really the only way to, to do George Lucas's dialogue sometimes. Um,

and I, I think with the performers that kind of knew that's what it was and they were leaning into it. I think of McDermot I think of Ewan McGregor, um, I think, I think it really works and, and I, um, you know, to me, I, I ki so like to me, so many prequel lines, despite them having, you know, quote unquote bad dialogue, and I wouldn't disagree that the dialogue is not, you know, if not, what you'd wanna, you know, show off in a film class as an example of, of great dialogue, but

the lines, yeah.

The lines are, the lines are, have become iconic. A lot of the prequel lines have become iconic because because of the camp quality, because of how larger than life and specific they are, they're so specific to George's sensibilities. , that, you know, it's kind of endearing to me. And I, I think that that was, that was something that, that helped me warm up to the prequels.

Other aspects were like I said, the Clone Wars series, when I finally. got into that and kind of got past my preconceived notions of that, that kind of really enriched my kind of reading of those, those films and get more invested in the characters.

And the other thing was the fan edit community, you know, um, like watching fan edit, it can trim out the, kind of the sticking points, the kind of, things that you can't get past when you're just trying to absorb the film, you know, there's certain things that take you out of it.

And fan edits for a long time were kind of a way for me to watch the films, and have it be a smooth experience, not have to, you know, just kind of like breeze past those moments and a, in a fan edit, and just focus on the stuff that works.

[01:33:36] JOSH: Yeah, they sort of allow you to see the film that is there,

[01:33:40] KEITH: Yeah. It, yeah, exactly. You're not so hung up on the aspects that don't work because you know, it lets you see the aspects that do work. And um, you know, and again, like, as I've started to appreciate the films, more, my taste in fan edits has even changed where I prefer a little more conservative, you know, a little like has a little more of the flavor of the original thing. but yeah, so the, really those three things, the fan edits, , and to it lesser extent also the, um, for a little while I was never a star. Um, so I grew up with the Knight of the old Republic video game and

and that, that's probably another reason why I was very like a Jedi focused fan and not

a smuggler, you know, and that side of the universe Knights of the old Republic is all about the Old Republic and the Jedi.

Um, so I, that was kind of a big thing for me, but I really got, I was never really into the expanded universe, meaning like the books and stuff. And that was until, I would say around like like basically in the lead up to Force Awakens, I

kind of got back into Star Wars, watching the Clone Wars and kind of, um, cuz I got excited about Star Wars again and I kind of wanted to absorb everything I could and I read, um, a couple expanded universe novels, some which, um, were early Disney cannon others, which, um, were non cannon at that point.

Um, but you know, what, what does that mean anyway? But the Darth Palgueis novel, um,

[01:35:12] JOSH: I've heard good things about that.

[01:35:14] KEITH: yeah, it really like specifically The Phantom menace. I feel like it really, I don't wanna say it rehabilitates that movie, but it. A lot of the things that might have you scratching your head when you watch the movie, it kind of gives justification for, and that's kind of my one criticism of the novel actually as well, is that it feels more like a patch to the movie that it does like a engrossing story in its own.

Right. Um, but there's so much more like, and this is something that the, the Plinkett reviews harped on a lot is kind of the inscrutable politics of The Phantom Menace. And I, I don't, when I watch the film now, I don't think they're inscrutable at all. I think, the message George is sending is perfectly clear.

And I think the, the political scenes are, are integral to the film. I, you know, I, I don't think, you know, when people say like, oh, the problem with the prequels was all, all the politics, it was boring. You know, that's one of my favorite part of the prequels. So I, I'm

not, uh, even something like, for example, you look at how A New Hope and I, I think one, it had to be that way because I think, the original trilogy was very much a traditional, , hero's journey story.

And it was a triumphant story, a triumphant ending. It ended on and up the prequels were always gonna end on a downer and there were always gonna have to be, well, how did we get here? It was kind of a story about what has to happen to our systems as a society, how do we decay to the point where something like this can happen, where like a person can, can do these things and one of the things I love about Revenge of the Sith is that it is kind of looking on that on an interpersonal level between like Anakin and Kenobi and on a societal level and a systems level of kind of, and, you know, that's where I do feel like some of those deleted scenes, um, add a lot to it as well. Specifically I'm thinking of the stuff with Padme and Bail Organa

um,

but, um, you know, it's kind of like the collapse, of society.

And it's kind of like in this fulcrum, this fulcrum point is this one man. And I, I don't know. I just think it's really ambitious and it's really, you know, there's, there's actually an art critic, uh, named, uh, Camille Paglia and she's like a fine art critic She has a book where she wrote a great piece on Revenge of the Sith and why she thinks it's like one of the greatest, like, 21st century works of art or something.

And

[01:37:44] JOSH: I must read this. I've never

[01:37:46] KEITH: Honestly. I haven't read the full book. I have to confess, I just read the section on Star Wars, but it's called, uh, Glittering Images by Camille Paglia. And, um, she writes about Star Wars and then about revenge of the sits specifically and specifically the climax of the movie and kind of the dual, the, the intercut duals into kind of like the ending and the kind of ending montage of like Padme giving birth while contrasted with essentially the death of Anakin and him

kind of

a, a rebirth, yeah.

A rebirth of VA, his rebirth as Vader. It's kind of the death of Padman, the death of Anakin and the birth of Vader and the birth of the twins and this kind of this parallelism. And then kind of, um, she talks about kind of like how. she sees like BA having Bail and Obi-Wan, how they are kind of presented as like nurturing male figure.

In kind of the end where he is handing off the baby, like, you know, it's a little like high minded, but it's, it's really compelling. And, um, I definitely recommend that as a read. And, um, the other thing I was gonna say is with the opening of a lot of people say, why is it so slow?

Why is it so boring? compared to like something like A New Hope where it's a bombastic opening, it's like we're in the middle of a fire fight. And I think the way I see it is what George was trying to say with that is kind of. How the banality of evil and how evil kind of slowly seeps into, you know, it's in these kind of boring trade disputes you know, people get complacent and they don't see the, kind of the, the, again, the Phantom menace, like it couldn't be more on the nose kind of lurking underneath it's.

And I, I feel like it's super, kind of prescient in terms of like the direction our society has gone. I mean, I don't want to get too political on your show, but, uh, you know, it's this kind of like, there's a bunch of people kind of being like, nothing's wrong.

This is, you know, whereas, you know, there's something clearly wrong. Something is clearly a foot, it's this kind of veneer and the, the whole idea with the phantom menace is this kind of veneer of everything being perfect and beautiful

[01:39:54] JOSH: while it's rotting from the inside

[01:39:56] KEITH: it's rotting from the inside out.

And I thought

that was really beautiful and really conceptually interesting. So like, I don't really have that issue of the opening. it's not an accident that the movie starts slow. It's intentionally a contrast to A New Hope. But I think even the, the fact that in A New Hope, it's Leia saying, well, I, you know, I'm a Senator, I'm, you know, I'm a dignitary, you know, and in this situation, it's the villains, it's the Neimoidians being like, well, what we're doing is legal, you know, we're, upstanding.

It's kind of an inversion of that. And I think, uh,

[01:40:31] JOSH: NT gun Ray, Newt Gingrich, and Ronald Reagan is where that name comes from. Not, not they're. These movies are very political. George is saying something very specific and it's not subtle. They, um, the one thing that I will say, , in regards to the politics of it all is I used to think that the prequels depiction of, you know, the fall of the Republic and the rise of the empire and even the fall of Anakin, uh, to a degree were, you know, kind of facile and simplistic.

And I didn't really buy

it,

but as the years have gone on and I have seen what has been happening in the real world.

I think the prequels are more freshen, as you said, and I appreciate them and understand them a lot more than I did when they originally came

[01:41:23] KEITH: Yeah. It reminds me of the, kind of the criticism of like, obviously on a whole different, whole different kind of movie, whole different tier than the prequels, but a movie like Jaws where people would be like, well, why didn't, you know, That's not realistic. They would absolutely close the beach right away.

[01:41:41] JOSH: Like,

[01:41:42] KEITH: know, and like, yeah. Yeah. You look at the world we live in

now. It's like, yeah,

[01:41:48] JOSH: yeah. Yeah, no, I'm with you a hundred percent. Um, I wanna thank you, Keith. I really enjoyed this conversation and I really appreciate you, being game to come on and have this chat.

And I'm gonna watch the Clone Wars, based on what you said. I think you sold me.

[01:42:04] KEITH: Cool. You'll have to let me know how it goes.

[01:42:08] JOSH: I will, I will. Again, I wanna thank Keith for his time and his patience while I sat on this episode for almost a year, but it's finally out there and hitting your ears, so thank you, Keith. If you enjoyed what you heard, please subscribe, like, rate and review the show on your platform of choice. We are trash com pod across all social media, and you can email us at trash com pod gmail.com.

Transcripts of this episode and all our other episodes are available@trashcompod.com. And as always, we will see you on the next one.