FEAR OF LOSS: A Discussion of REVENGE OF THE SITH

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, and today we are joined by Bracey

[00:00:07] BRACEY: Hey.

[00:00:09] JOSH: and Jonny,

[00:00:10] JONNY: Hello.

[00:00:11] JOSH: and concluding our coverage of the prequel trilogy world, the the prequel films. Um, today we're gonna be talking about Star Wars, Episode Three, Revenge of the Sith from 2005, the final film directed by George Lucas, the final Star Wars film directed by George Lucas.

Um, and I am titling this episode, Fear of Loss because dear listeners, we actually recorded this episode with, uh, these two guests, uh, Bracey and Jon, about revenge of Seth. And, um, because of a technical issue , we lost that recording. , every creator's worst nightmare, the, file was lost.

So we are going to be trying to rekindle our discussion that we already had. Hopefully we'll be able to cover some of the same ground and maybe touch on some new interesting insights that we hadn't had previously. , so when did we all see Star Wars episode three. The first time Jonny.

[00:01:06] JONNY: Uh, you and I saw it at the Babylon movie theater, uh, the night before it was released to the public because I used to work there. And generally speaking, whenever they have a big movie they're gonna put out, uh, they allow the staff to watch it the night before. And we invited all of our friends and we showed up and it was a big. Debaucherous, uh, affair, which was a lot of fun. and it was also the, uh, the first Star Wars movie that you and I watched together in the theater. And I, I said this last recording and I said it again, but, um, right before the movie started, you leaned over to me and you said, Jonny, we didn't start this journey together, but I'm glad we're finishing it together, cuz at the time we thought this was gonna be the last Star Wars movie ever.

And, uh, it was a good night.

[00:01:48] JOSH: It was fun. Bracey, you weren't there?

[00:01:50] BRACEY: I don't remember. I honestly, I don't, I don't remember where I was when I watched it. uh, yeah,

[00:01:57] JOSH: Do you recall the first time you saw this?

[00:02:00] BRACEY: think I went to that one. I think when I went with my, brother, I picked him up af like out after school and like we went to go see it. I was like super psyched about it.

[00:02:10] JOSH: Yeah, by the way, like, I mean, this is weird. So we're coming up on 20 years since this movie came out. Uh, longer ago. Certainly longer between, Return of the Jedi and Episode One since, since this movie came out. which is crazy to think about. It's also, it's, it's wild. Like, some of these memories are fading.

It's making me realize just how much time has passed,

[00:02:31] JONNY: Like the idea that we can't even remember if Bracey was there or not. It's like,

[00:02:36] JOSH: is wild.

[00:02:37] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:02:38] JOSH: and it's just also, I think, speaks to. you know, these prequels are, firmly in history. Like they are, a part of the history of Star Wars, not like, you know, the new movies or like the next movies to come. Like, these are historical documents and our memories of experiencing them are, are fading with age.

Um,

[00:03:01] BRACEY: But I, I mean, but it's relevant. It's like really, really relevant. It's not even just that like they're part of the history of Star Wars, like on Fortnite. Which heavily plays on the, may, May the Fourth be With You. Every year, at least for the last two years, they really like used that as an opportunity for people to jump in as Star Wars characters and like really celebrate Star Wars and like win Star Wars swag.

And this year the two main things that they put in their marketplace is Anakin and Padme.

and they're selling those things and like, it's like kind of like better realized versions of them and it like, looks really, really cool. It's like really it's, it's like, it's a really celebrated part equally cuz they did the same thing with like Luke and Leia and they did the like, They have, uh uh, uh, they're celebrating Star Wars as pop culture right now for all the kids and adults that play that game.

Like that's like top of mind and has been for like the last week, which is kind of really cool.

[00:04:02] JONNY: Yeah, it's cool to see that. Um, star Wars itself as a world, as sort of like a timeless thing. And we all knew that with, Growing up in the original trilogy. And it's cool to see that now that we're at the same distance from the prequels that we were from the original trilogy, that the prequels are holding up with that too.

And I wouldn't be surprised, if maybe like 20 years from now people will have the same sort of excitement over Kylo Ren and, you know, Ray and stuff like that. Like, I just feel like, because the nature of Star Wars, it's like they're not walking around wearing, um, JCO jeans or anything like that. It's like, it's like, it's like they're just, they're, it's Star Wars, so it will always be, it would always be timeless just because of the nature of it being so alien to what we live in.

[00:04:47] JOSH: Certainly what you said, Jon. I think that, you know, the generation who grew up with these films as their films as kids are now have come of age and have, you know, very fond memories of their childhood, of these films, the Obi-Wan Kenobi show last year, I think, brought a lot of those prequel, specifically episode three characters, and continued that thread of the story that I think is front and center in this movie.

Um, and gave them sort of a, you know, 2020s treatment. and I think that made a lot of people take another look at Revenge of the si or reconsider, of the sy. It's also interesting too, because. I'm wondering how you guys, feel about it, but I get the impression from kids, but also, people of our generation and even older that like Revenge of the Sith kind of had a reputation as like the, the one of the prequels that was the best,

[00:05:46] JONNY: Mm-hmm. You wanna get a more opinion of what we think about

[00:05:49] BRACEY: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that's, I, I, I think I agree with it. That.

[00:05:52] JONNY: I, I think, I think it's an accurate statement. I think if I, if someone were to say to me, uh, which one of the prequels is the best prequel? Uh, for a time I would've said revenge of the si. Um, now I don't know cause I just watched Phantom Menace recently and, um, I might choose Phantom Menace, but like, but, uh, because there's something about Phantom Menace that still has a bit of a film quality to it, it's a little bit more tangible.

But that being said, easily down the line, if you ask any regular person, including myself for many years, and maybe even right now, who knows, I might say that Revenge of the Sith might be the, uh, the best prequel just because of, uh, the content itself.

[00:06:33] JOSH: Yeah, I mean, I was gonna ask like, why do you think that is? I think, is it, I mean, is it obvious?

[00:06:37] JONNY: I think it's entirely because of the content. I think, as George Lucas has said in the past, I think, didn't he say something like over 60% of his ideas for the prequels he put into episode three? So like, I feel like episode three is like when the shit hits the fan and things go down, and all the things that we were curious about as kids basically happens in episode three.

So it's like episode three is like when everything happens. So I think because of that, it's the one that everyone's the most interested in seeing, if that makes any sense.

[00:07:11] BRACEY: It's, as you were talking, I was just thinking about like, why did I not like episode three? When it initially came out and I realized like my perspective of it was that I wanted like, to some extent an explosion, like in a way that I didn't get to see it, but like, When I watched it most recently for this podcast, I realized that like, oh, I got to see the explosion.

But it didn't happen for kids. It happened for like, people who are paying attention to this like, structural problem that is going, it's like the structural problem that's going off in real time, in a way that like, I appreciate now because I see the way that our world is constructed. And I'm like, oh, he's really communicating something that's like an, like a systematic problem of the way these cultures are working.

And it's beyond just good and bad. And I was looking for like bad guy, good guy explosion and like, it just, it, it, it wasn't that. Um, which I, I thought was, yeah, I, I think it's a really interesting film. I think the, the first ones e episode one still has like the most captivating ending for me. Like. I don't think the movie overall worked, but like that ending was like, it's one of those things that for me it was so epic that it's like I kind just because it exists in that movie, I'm kind of willing to just like, let the others go because nothing else in the other movies feel as epic as that the the do of the fates.

Um, so

[00:08:45] JONNY: Yeah. Yeah. I've often said this for years, that they kind of blew their load with dual def fates. I mean, like, it's just like Hands down the, the best dual of the prequels and even the, the music that was made for it, the dual of the faith song that was put to it, it was like, oh, this should have been used for the last fight in the last movie.

Like, and then, so like, you can tell with the, with the last fight in the last movie, they're like, what if we just make another sort of choir like song and what if we made this, what if we made the fight like four hours long? And then it's just like, yeah, but it is just, it's not do all the faiths. Like, it's just like, um, it, it, it's interesting, uh, when Dave Phony talked about do all the faiths in that one Mandalorian behind the scenes scene, when he talk about how's the fight over a and soul between the Jedi and the si, it really does make that, like, in hindsight, do all the fates is probably the most important fight of the entire trilogy.

More important than nobody won an Anakin. Because with Obi-Wan and Anakin, it's already a done deal. He can't say Ankin, it's just like he's just trying to stop him from killing them. But like with Dual the Faiths, it's like that kind of decides everything. So it's kind of, I'm realizing it now, but that was probably the most important part of all three movies, was that one Fight

[00:10:08] JOSH: well, what's also really interesting too, and we touched on this in the Phantom Menace pod we did, is that, you know, one of the, um, the often lab criticisms that the Phantom Menace is that there's no main character when in reality the main character is very clearly Qui-Gon.

[00:10:23] JONNY: Qu Gunk. I've always thought I was qu gin.

[00:10:27] JOSH: Well, so, so cuz I think, people watching it had trouble, seeing beyond the original trilogy who we knew. It's like, what

[00:10:36] JONNY: So the Obi-Wan and

[00:10:37] JOSH: Like what do you mean it's not Atan? Yeah, yeah. so if you accept that Qui-Gon is really the main character of that movie, it becomes an even more, kind of shocking and, perverse twist when, he dies and, and loses.

And then it's sort of like that's the catalyst for the rest of this saga. Like the fact that,

[00:10:58] JONNY: uh, if, if no one, if there was a person out there who knew nothing about Star Wars, knew nothing about the spoilers that had been established for decades, if they saw a Phanta Menace Cold, they might think that Quai ga gin was basically like a Ned Stark. You know,

[00:11:15] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:11:15] JONNY: he's a man guy. He's probably gonna be in all the Star Wars movies, and then boom, he's not, sort of thing, which is interesting, like, I think George Lucas had that in his mind when he made it, but, Given the fact that it's a prequel, it's impossible to do unless you like show it to someone who has never seen anything Star Wars or even heard of Star Wars.

You know, it's kind of hard to keep that surprise.

[00:11:37] BRACEY: been handled a little different. Like we could have done things earlier on to endear you to the character. I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say that. Nevermind. I don't wanna say that. Uh, because like you could always be like, oh, they could have done it better. It's not like

accepting it for what it, for what it was like.

Yeah.

I, I definitely agree with you.

[00:11:57] JONNY: bring Tobe to episode three. That's, that's my main conceit about a lot of these things is, um, I don't mind the idea. I just think that maybe they could have done it in a bunch of different ways.

[00:12:08] JOSH: mean, first of all, Braley, I appreciate what you're saying. Like, you know, I have a tricky relationship with the phrase, like, like, it should have been like this, or it should have been like that. because it's like, you know, I mean, it should be however the guy making the movie wants it to be.

So it's kind of like,

[00:12:26] BRACEY: Yeah.

[00:12:27] JOSH: but that said, you know, I think one of the, trickier aspects of these movies, all three of these movies, but I think it really, comes to the fore in this one, is the fact that they are serving as, not just prequels, but also sequels. So you do have the knowledge of what quote comes later.

, and for me, like there's always kind of a question mark in my mind about the best order to watch these movies in. And I know George Lucas has said many times, unequivocally, he thinks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 is how you should watch them. and I think he was trying to really thread that needle of, you know, making a.

satisfying viewing experience on First Watch Cold, and also for someone who had seen the original films. But what ends up happening, for me at least, like it does like some weird things that show up in this movie. Like the ending of this movie, of episode three, the way that it seems to go out of its way to literally set up the original Star Wars.

It's like we see everyone ending up where they know, where we know they're going to end up. Like we see, we literally see Obi-Wan handing Luke, to. Baru and we literally see, you know, um, Vader looking like Doth Vader. We literally see the white corridors of the Tant V four and all of that stuff.

And it's just like, you know, we, we literally see the Death Star under construction and it's like, you know, like these are just things that if it wasn't a prequel, I don't know, like, there's a version of this movie. I think there's a very strong argument, to be made that, a lot of the complaints leveled at the prequels in terms of will it ruins surprises in the original trilogy, or it like, kind of usurps some of the, narrative choices of the original trilogy.

Like a lot of those things happen in this movie, like, the idea, you know, for example, I can't help but feel like if these movies were made in story, in story order. So in other words, of episode three, was the third Star Wars film made instead of the sixth. I don't know that you would see Vader in the suit at the end.

So when Vader

[00:14:48] JONNY: money on it that you wouldn't.

[00:14:50] JOSH: Yeah. So when, so when you see Vader showing up in the next movie, it's like, who's this guy? then like you're with. Luke in Star Wars, like, you think your father is dead. We know that Obi-Wan is like kindly, telling Luke a white lie about how he died.

And when we realize in Empire like, oh no, Vader is actually Anakin, like, it would've, like you can have your cake and eat it. And I think you know, there was this, this impulse to tie everything up in like a nice tidy bow at the end of this movie. Uh, when I just feel like if you really wanted, uh, people to sit and watch one through six in that order, um, there are like things you would do. Or that could be done differently, that would preserve some of the narrative effectiveness of the original trilogy, if that makes any sense.

[00:15:54] BRACEY: I, I would, all I'm gonna say is after, after this rewatch, I like how I read it. Initially, I was right there with you. I was right there with you. But this, time through, I think all that stuff coming together, uh, the way that, uh, he's, what he's trying to do with actually showing him in the suit, , unfortunately for the people who don't care for that.

Like no scene, like him yelling like that is basically the payoff for the highlight. Of his, his, his best moment in that movie. Like they went out of the way to really just kind of push in on him when he was like, this is the happiest moment of my life. And it was, it was that moment where he was about to, uh, he was with, uh, padme and, uh, she had just told him that they have a child on the way.

And underscoring that information was, uh, the fact that he can't have the, his, his wife, His wife out in public, like the people, the person he cares the most about. And now he just learned the best news. And it's actually, first I thought he had some bad acting, but that scene in particular, I was like, actually, he's really wrestling with this in this moment.

You can see him dip into this, and if you believe what he says, like, this is the happiest moment of my life, uh, uh, the fall, uh, the fall doesn't really mean anything as much. Like he couldn't that moment of like pure anguish and like that, that that whole suit is the container of the worst, of the worst.

Like everything, all his mistakes, all the worst things, all the things that people, he, he hates about being betrayed, like all that stuff, it resulted in that and also him missing. So I just like feel like that scene for what George was trying to say with this movie, I think he was less interested in how it paid off the other, uh, like how, how you would go into the other one as much, as much as he was really like interested in putting the punctuation on that character's journey.

And the point of this was his, his hard fall.

[00:18:23] JONNY: I totally see that,

[00:18:24] JOSH: Yeah, I can't really, I can't really argue with that logic.

[00:18:28] JONNY: no, I, I, I think that's, I think that's exactly what he was going for. I, my, my only thing about that is, um, that's also talking about what was given to us. So like, I understand. Why that scene is supposed to resonate exactly the way you beautifully explained it. But I would also say that like they could have gotten the same effect by not having that scene and having a different scene entirely.

you know what I'm trying to say? Like, it's one of those scenes where it's like, and I like ad na, I always say this intention versus execution. And like maybe that could have been done more in his, uh, human form where he actually thinks he did kill Padma and he has a, a freak out over killing her. And that could also spur the fight between him and Obi-Wan.

But instead he's just like, chokes her out now I'm gonna fight you Obi-Wan. He doesn't even think about possibly killing her, whereas like that could have been the moment, like, why didn't they do it then? You know, that's just like one of the million different things where I feel like they could have gotten the same sort of, uh, climax in a different sort of fashion, which is my question. That I wanna talk about, because I think this is something that kind of, um, intrigues me and perplexes me about the prequels specifically. Episode three is what are your opinions about the things that George Lucas focuses on and compared to what he glosses over? Like, what do you think? for instance, uh, everyone was like, I wonder how all the Jedi are gonna go out.

Like, how, how do they come to their downfall? And it's just like, George is like, uh, they, they give an order and they all die anyway and he just moves on. And it's like, well, isn't that kind of important? And then it's like, it seems like he concentrated more on like politics and this and that.

So I just wanna get your general opinion on these things.

[00:20:15] BRACEY: so I, I, I, I got two responses for that. I think if you're standing from the perspective of where George is coming from, I, uh, watching this, and I feel like dumb for not connecting this before, but I feel like Star Wars is really like where his imagination went when watching buck Rogers.

Like, or, or like, some kind of like classic sci-fi is Buck Rodgers, the, the classic sci-fi

[00:20:42] JONNY: Yeah.

[00:20:43] JOSH: I think Flash Gordon, I think

[00:20:44] BRACEY: go. Flash Gordon uh, uh,

[00:20:46] JONNY: they're both

[00:20:46] BRACEY: that kind of, uh, uh, how he, how, how he was imagining a, a future or a distant world from watching what he grew up around, like Flash Gordon. So, he's coming to it with a, a style that is kind of even to some extent, Influencing what we see as an original style, but he's probably pulling from things that really inspired him at a time and an age in a way that you told a story.

And so, like, I feel like, , uh, when I look at it through the lens of what I, what, how Star Wars shaped me, I'm like, that doesn't work. But when I start to realize that he didn't like Star Wars the way that he wa it wasn't what he wanted it to be, and feel like once I start to realize that like, well, he's getting closer to what he wanted to feel like, and this is just like, If I went back to the, the fifties when he grew up and I saw this, I would not be thinking about or caring about any of the things that I think about and care about.

I would be like, this is an awesome sci-fi epic. Um, and, and I wouldn't, and I wouldn't think twice. So, oh, that's just the one thing I'm like, uh, uh, where he is coming from, from, uh, from that side. But it sound like you were, you were gonna respond or looked like you were gonna respond. Jonny,

[00:22:07] JONNY: Yeah, that's, I mean, like, I, I feel like. He was always inspired by the Flash Gordon thing, but with the original trilogy, I think he also went very much into like David Lean and, and Akira Cara. and I feel like with the prequel trilogy, he leaned harder into the Buck Rogers Flash Gordon thing.

Um, which kind of comes across. Now the, the, the, the interesting thing is, is that like the thing that took the world by storm, the phenomenon was a thing that he didn't like. And then it's kinda like a weird analogy, but it's kind of like how, uh, Nirvana thought that nevermind sounded too polished.

And so In Utero was kind of like made in response to like going back to their original core intent, which is be like a garage sort of punk band. And I feel like this kind of is a little bit of that where it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, people love the original trilogy, but like, this is what I really wanted to do.

And then, so I can't fault him for doing anything that he wants to do, you know? But I, at the same time, I can look at it as a film and be like, well, here's how I defer in my opinion as to what he could have done. But like, I, I really, I, I give him kudos to, to being like the unfiltered George Lucas. Like e e episode three is like unfiltered George Lucas, I feel.

[00:23:25] BRACEY: Well, and, and, and I feel like that kind of brings me to the second point where it's like, His perspective, from his perspective. Uh, uh, what if it wasn't that he just didn't like, it's not that he, didn't like Star Wars, it's that maybe his vision of it was, well, Star Wars is just like this place.

Tattooing is just one small place compared to what this, this world is this, this, this universe that I've created is, and people dug too much into the themes that made it, that one thing and applied it to like larger Star Wars when for him it was this other place and this was the, this was the story into that.

But, more so just that, like what if. This is like, he intended it the way that it is. Like what if it's actually landing the way he intended it? And it's just like he was leaning into that before and after. Like he really was leaning into the, the, like this, the world literally worked differently before the fall, before the Empire.

Like the world was a completely drastically different place. The world, the universe was our galaxy was. And I feel like from that perspective, he's much more interested in the politics that don't even exist anymore in, in the original trilogy. Like the politics of the air, because that's the stuff that crumbled.

And like that's the, the where the, the meat of where

the epic fall was.

[00:24:56] JONNY: I think that's exactly what happened. I think that's exactly what he was going for with the new trilogy. And, um, I think he was trying to change all the aspects of it. Even like when he made Episode One and we were like, everything looks so gilded and so, , clean and shiny. And he's like, he did that on purpose, you know, to show how everything was different, the height.

Of say the Roman Empire, you know? So, um, but I guess yet again where, where I nitpick is just like, that's all fine and dandy, but to make a compelling story, uh, and to execute it well, that's a whole other thing, you know? Cuz even if you have the characters and the wrappings and the focus of the plot, you still have to sell it, you know?

And I think for a number of people, and this is something that I've noticed, uh, and feel free to pop in whenever you want Josh, but this is something I noticed with people that grew up with the prequels where they were kids and they were their movies. I find that those fans are very much all content oriented.

Like all they talk about is content and lore, and they don't talk about filmmaking and cinema. And so I feel like it's weird that when the, when the original trilogy came out, people were like, these are amazing movies. And then by the time the prequels came out, it has already become of religion.

So when people talk about the prequels and why they're better or why they're whatever, they usually say it in regards to the scripted story that was given to them. And not because of like many other things that just that go the art form of it, you know.

[00:26:32] JOSH: Yeah. Well, I mean that's certainly, that's a very interesting observation. Um, I would say, a couple things. I do know, um, there are some fans, some of whom I've spoken to, on this podcast about who grew up with the original, sorry, who grew up with the prequels and then say like, as they got older, they began to appreciate certain aspects of the original films and, you know, came to see or even regard them as superior movies.

[00:27:03] JONNY: I think Jon Boyega was one of those people too, cuz he said that the prequels were his movies and he thought that the original movies sucked because they had terrible special effects. And then when he got older he was like, oh wait, these movies like fucking rule, you know? But he just disregarded them because they were old.

[00:27:19] JOSH: Well, the so, so I mean, yeah, I mean, I think that there's a, that there's an element of that in play and, uh, the other thing. the place where I think, I like to think this, this podcast comfortably rests, is, I think Star Wars does one of, two things to people. I think you see Star Wars. You love Star Wars.

You either, become a Star Wars fan, or you become a film fan, right? And I some people go super deep into the Star Wars of it all. It's Star Wars, Ubers, it's like, it's, it's about Star Wars. For Star Wars sake, or Star Wars is your first step into a larger world, as it were. And you, you want to know how Star Wars came to be.

You want to know what makes it work, why it works, how it does. And I think that you know what you're talking about. I mean, there are, I'm sure kids who grew up with the prequels, who, for whom? Star Wars, the prequels were there. Star Wars. but I don't know that we necessarily, the ones who became film fans, I don't know if they're necessarily as visible as the ones who we see in like the Star Wars fandom.

[00:28:28] JONNY: Well, I think the reason might be is because when the original trilogy came out, there was nothing else that was like it. And then when the prequels came out, there was a lot that was a, like, it, that was like, you know, VFX c granted George Lucas was pushing the CGI back then to its brink, but like,

[00:28:45] JOSH: No, I mean, like you had like the

[00:28:46] JONNY: it was like a different

[00:28:47] JOSH: for example.

[00:28:48] JONNY: Yeah, yeah. Like Lord of the Rings came out and, um, the standards have shifted by the time it ca I mean even like, even like Independence Day, which is basically like Star Wars in 1995, you know, that's, it's, it Star Wars, the prequels were special because of the lore. It wasn't necessarily and like the CG special effects for the film nerds, but I think for a lot of the kids it was just because of the lore, not because, um, because of, what they hadn't seen before, if that makes any sense to them it

was like, A whole world of things to invest in, but

[00:29:22] JOSH: Yeah. I think that, is true to a degree. I also think, you know, when Star Wars, first came out, the original trilogy, like there wasn't that much deep lore to get into. There was the films and, you know, there were the novelizations.

And, the novelizations had a little more, detail in them, but like, there wasn't like when, the prequels came out, of the things that made them special was the fact that they were Star Wars.

[00:29:51] JONNY: Yep. Exactly. And they're a little bit more, um, they explain things more. I feel like with the original trilogy, it's like the Force is more of a philosophy than it is like a biological thing. and you get these people like Boba Fett who have like, you know, six lines and they're in like 10 minutes of the trilogy and people are like, he's my favorite character.

And it's just like, and you have all these other things where it's like, there's so much left open to be like, where did this come from? What is this? What is Yoda? Like, what's going on? And in, I feel like in the prequels, there's a lot like, here are the Jedi, here are the Jedi work. Here's the Force, here's how the Force works.

Here's, here's what the Clone Wars are, here's what the yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. So it's just like, if you're into it, there's so much to chew on because it's given a lot, giving a lot to the audience. But if you're not into it, if you're just watching it as a movie, they have to have more than just that.

[00:30:45] BRACEY: uh, So I think the original stories, the original movies are better films because they, they were made in a time where they had to be better films. I like, like that's what the medium required for that, those, those films to even get made.

Whereas I think the prequels have a, aside from the lore, a better story, I feel like what George Lucas was using the medium to do was to tell his story. And I think, , it's actually a much richer story than, What the original, Trilogy had.

[00:31:24] JONNY: Well, I will quickly just say that I think Episode Three is probably the most complex Star Wars movie, uh, story wise.

[00:31:32] BRACEY: but I, I think the beauty is how, how it's sewn together from the very beginning and it, and what we were just talking about with Gui-Gon, like what, this is really just what we get to see is, truly the side that knew it was on the light side, the right side, and became arrogant of it. They became arrogant and because of that, they were able to be toppled by their own arrogance while this really dark,

dark shadow was spreading right underneath their nose, and they could not even sense it except for one guy. One guy, who ultimately Qui-Gon actually recognized that he wa like he was starting to walk the true path. And what that led him to was actually transcending, despite the, or, uh, the order that, uh, uh, that the Jedi had fallen into.

And, and yeah. And what it, what it ended up leading to. And I just think that there's, like that story. It is, it is crafted in lore, but that story is so much more interesting. Once you can, you, you actually start to play with the themes that they're throwing down.

[00:32:47] JONNY: And, and something that's not even talked about often enough with Qui-Gon is how, um, at the time of the, , prequel trilogy, Qui-Gon, in my opinion, is the most wise Jedi there. He's wiser than Yoda. Yoda just can't see it. And the Yoda that we know as the all wise Yoda, that's The Empire Strikes Back Yoda. That's like after all this, when he's like, oh shit.

I mean like, and if you want to get into the lore, Qui-Gon is the one that figures out how to become a Force ghost first, because like you said, he's transcending, so he's the wise one that knows what's going on and everyone's ignoring him, which is a classic story unto itself. Josh, I wanna hear from you.

[00:33:29] JOSH: I mean, I think that's, I think that's certainly true. I think Qui-Gon is, you know, he's positioned as not quite in lockstep with the Jedi Council and I think that, Yeah. I think the, the Jedi in particular, the, the council, the way that they, , that they do things, the fact that they aren't able to see a Dark Lord of the Sith right under their noses.

Like I think, have kind of lost their way.

Um, I think we're supposed to be sympathizing with Qui-Gon. I think we're supposed to read what he says as correct. I also, I think I would agree with you, Bracey. I think the story of the prequels, I think is a more interesting story than, the story of the originals. And in that sense, I do see how.

the prequels kind of enhance the story of the original trilogy. Like when you know what happened and how it happened. Then seeing Luke go through the same motions as his father becomes much more compelling because you've seen it and you've seen what can happen.

[00:34:42] BRACEY: and you see how dark it can get.

[00:34:45] JONNY: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:46] JOSH: yeah, , and in particular, you know, things like we see in Empire Luke disobeys Yoda and Obi-Wan, he does the exact opposite thing of what they tell him to do. And he fights Vader, he gets his ass handed to him, and he's confronted with this knowledge that is, you know, devastating for him.

And then the next time we see him, he's wearing black robes and he, he forced chokes a green pig. and, you know, his entrance in Return of the Jedi is like, whoa. Like, who, who is this dude? Like, he, it's like, what's happened here? Um,

[00:35:21] JONNY: was something they did on purpose back then too, because they wanted people to think that Luke could actually turn to the dark side.

Which in the climax of the movie, he comes very close to doing.

[00:35:32] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:35:32] BRACEY: But he had friends.

[00:35:34] JONNY: He had friends,

[00:35:35] BRACEY: But He had friends?

That's something. Anakin never had friends.

[00:35:39] JOSH: Well, but that's actually true though. Like there are, so in an effort to keep Jedi from having attachments to prevent them from, falling to the dark side, ironically for, Anakin, they made him more susceptible, to falling to the dark side.

You know, it's because of the Jedi that he's separated from his mother. It's because of the Jedi that he's not able to save his mother. It's because of the Jedi that, you know, Obi-Wan is not really able to be the friend that Anakin needs. I think Obi-Wan to his credit, tries, he, he's doing the best that he can.

but within the, um, You know, the guidelines of his prescribed role. you know, if the Jedi weren't, were allowed to have attachments. If it wasn't such a, a taboo thing, I think, you know, maybe Anakin would have confided in Obi-Wan about what was going on instead of having to keep it so close.

Right.

[00:36:40] JONNY: Yeah, Obi-Wan basically, uh, the stepdad because Qui-Gon was supposed to be the teacher anyway. He was supposed to be the father figure,

and then Qui-Gon gets knocked out and Obi-Wan's like, I guess I'll do this. And then he's just figuring it out as he goes.

[00:36:54] JOSH: Well, so it's interesting on the Phantom Menace Pod, friend of the pod oftentimes guessed, Chris said something I thought was very insightful, where he was like the Obi-Wan Anakin relationship is less of a father son, and it's more like a brother relationship.

[00:37:12] JONNY: which is what he says in the movie. He says, you were my brother. At the end.

[00:37:15] JOSH: Right, rather than in Attack of the Clones where Anakin says, he's like my father. Right.

[00:37:21] JONNY: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:21] JOSH: Um, and in that sense, you know, Obi-Wan is sort of not there yet. Like he becomes a, a master sort of, by default, but he's not that far removed from where Anakin is. Like he goes right from, padawan to becoming Anakin's, master.

[00:37:38] JONNY: Yeah,

at the end of the movie, he simultaneously becomes a Jedi Knight and a teacher,

and so that's a lot of responsibility for your first day on the job.

[00:37:49] JOSH: no, and they're also much closer in age and. then say Qui-Gon and, and Obi-Wan, like you get the, the impression that, Qui-Gon had a light of, of life experience under his belt before he took on Obi-Wan as

[00:38:03] JONNY: And you also get the impression that he taught someone else before Obi-Wan too.

Like he seems like by the end of the movie, he just seems like, uh, he's like, yeah, no, you're, you're cool Obi-Wan, like, you don't need to learn anymore. Like as if he's already done it before.

[00:38:15] BRACEY: But also Obi-Wan, is like, you can see in the third, in the, in the third episode that he is learning like the, the choices that they make showing the shots of, of Obi-Wan as, as they go through the movie. It's like they're setting up how Anakin is clearly a better warrior. Like he's clearly a better leader.

He like a better on the battle battlefield. He is, he's more superior with the wielding of the force. and so you're, you're really seeing like through the entire thing, like there's no way. Obi-Wan could beat Anakin in a fight, but at the same time, they're going through and they're showing, like Obi-Wan learns, like Obi-Wan is learning every step, every step of the way.

Like he isn't necessarily the first one. Uh, uh, like he'll make a mistake. And he was lucky enough to ha be saved in a lot of cases. But then he, like, they demonstrate when fighting uh, uh, uh, general what's, what's the general's name? general grievous with all those lightsabers, like, , Anakin's faster.

But Obi-Wan has the ability to like actually defend himself. Like he's actually capable and he also just thinks through things a lot more than Anakin, in the longer term. And he's like more aware, especially when he is not hyper-focused on his, like one intent. He sees the wider picture and ultimately I think that's, that's what, what saves him.

[00:39:45] JONNY: what, what's the, uh, what's the thing? , when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And that's Anakin. His approach to everything is just sort of like a brute, straightforward, most direct thing he can do. And for him, that was kind of like his martial prowess. So he was fearless because he can, he knew that he could never really be, be beaten in that department, you know?

And his, um, Hayden Christensen's choreography as Anakin. It's just beautiful to watch to see him with his lightsaber doing all the maneuvers and all that. But as you were saying

[00:40:17] BRACEY: he's really amazing,

[00:40:19] JONNY: he's

[00:40:19] BRACEY: what he's doing. He's really,

[00:40:21] JONNY: he's a, he's amazing to watch that watched and both of them really. But, uh, as you said about Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan is the wiser one.

So he figures things out, like you said. And so the Grievous thing was, was a great example because before he even starts fighting Grievous, when he sees the guards walking up to him, he looks up and he sees the big ass block on the ceiling. He goes, eh, and he just crushes them with a block that takes no light saber finesse whatsoever.

He just outsmarted him. And that's something that like Obi-Wan. It does, uh, like, uh, when he walks into the bar in, in Episode Two and he's like, what are you gonna do? He's like, I'm gonna get a drink. Cause, cause he figured the assassin was gonna show themself. And he's like, well, maybe if I just make myself an open target, I can get the jump on the assassin thinking they're gonna ambush me.

Whereas Anakin would be like, where's the assassin? Where's the assassin? I'll fuck him up. I'll fuck him up. Like, and it's like, that's not the best approach to everything. Hence when you see the final fight, Anakin's going him on Obi-Wan with everything. And Obi-Wan is just retreating and retreating and retreating and retreating until legendarily, is that a word?

He gets the high ground and he is like, I win. Like he didn't have to fight harder, he just had to fight smarter, which is what he did.

[00:41:42] JOSH: No. Yeah. And then, that's the final sort of example of it, uh, because he's seeing moves ahead. He's like, he's like, Anakin, like, you try this, I'm gonna cut all your arms off. Like I'm

[00:41:52] JONNY: Yeah, he gives him, he gives him warning. He's like, you already lost. I'm gonna win.

[00:41:56] JOSH: Yeah. And, and that's not something that Anakin is willing to even entertain,

[00:42:01] BRACEY: but he can't, he, but also the, like, how they set up that character, like, and the, I see it more and more like, this is something that, uh, Josh and I talked about earlier where it was like, , Vader was always meant to be the thug, right? Or originally conceived of as the thug.

And it got, he got, he got elevated in, in a way that he was more than a thug.

But, it feels like the problems that I've had with the original trilogy really kind of go away when I think of the character as like, well, what if he was a, like, he was an idiot? Like what if he was like, he was like, like the kid was, Intuitive and talented, but as far as intelligence, it wasn't there.

And what if like, that was the character and, and all the things that we were like talking about like, oh, that kid's not a good actor stuff. Like, but what if that was actually perfectly played? And we were just to some extent, like as, as a, as a, as an audience trained to think like, well they have to look stupid, to be stupid to some extent.

You know, like they have to, like, you couldn't possibly be that this kid in the movie is like unintelligent. But that literally is the character trait that I feel that, is being utilized throughout the, the entire story art.

[00:43:24] JONNY: there's something too that, that I, I did notice when I was watching the last time, um, one, every person in this movie is, every actor is really committing to one direction, for their thing.

I feel, and Anakin's I feel like, is a very bold, sort of like, um, I don't know what the word, I guess, like pigheaded earnestness. Like he kind of is like the, the, the jock. Like he's very much like championship winning, like ace quarterback guy. but he needs a good coach, you know, and he's, and then he gets to, his head gets too big and he's like, I could do it.

I don't need the coach. I got this. And I, and I totally see all that. And the one thing I will say for, um, acting performances, when people say like, oh, it's bad or whatever, like they're doing the best with what is and what is not given to them. I mean, when you're in a room filled with all blue and green, and then your only direction is, uh, uh, do it again, but faster, it's like, and you're not getting down to the, to the crux of the character.

No, no shade to George Lucas or anything like that. They just have to commit to their specific choice. And I will say like, This last time, watching it again at I tender to age your 40, those decisions came through a lot more. Not just with Anakin, but also with Samuel Jackson. Also with Natalie Portman, also with even Jimmy Smits.

Like, um, even with General Grievous, it's like, oh, he's sort of like that Buck Rogers Flash, Gordon Fumanchu bad guy, you know? does it all work together? I don't know, but I totally see what you're talking about, Bracey. I'm, I'm done with my rant.

[00:45:04] JOSH: well speaking of, you know, 10 to age of 40, um, I want to talk about, Anakin's fall. And you know, Bracey, last time you said something really interesting. You said that a lot of things in this movie, when you watched it now as an adult, hit you differently. And I asked you to gimme an example and, , the thing you said that you read much differently watching it now versus almost 20 years ago was, was Anakin's fall.

And, I am curious if you could elaborate on that. You, you said something about how, you know, it's in particular in that scene with Sidious and Mace Windu where, you know, he's literally caught between two, in his mind, hard, very not good decisions, and it's kind of like whatever he chooses, he's, he's gotta be all in on that.

And that moment is sort of a crucible that kind of forces him to choose.

[00:46:03] BRACEY: yeah. So leading everything up to that, realizing how well played, Palpatine is, is, is, is, is like he's playing his hand, like how well he's playing his hand, um, how well he has strung this slow game, uh, this slow tie underneath everything. And, uh, making it so the perspective of Anakin. He can see all the hypocrisy. Like it's, it's not that it's not there. The problem is, Anakin can see it and he can see that like, Well, that's not what we're saying we are supposed to be doing. And ultimately he is associating that disorder or this like bending of the rules with the things that like he fears most in his life, which is the, the loss of his mom.

And now, the impending doom of his, of, of, of his, a wife and soon to be born child. and, in that moment he's, uh, seeing a case after case where, uh, he's seeing, uh, that he can't, even, even if he saved the Jedi, even if he did everything the right way, and he, did, he went with what they said to do.

He would not be able to live a life, that was fulfilling. as they kind of flagged earlier when he is like, this is the happiest moment of my life and I can't share it with anybody. Basically he is like the, the next line of that, like, I can't even enjoy it. I can't, be myself. I can't be in love.

I will always have to be in the shadows. uh, so, uh, he had to look at the Jedi in all their faults. and on top of that, say, I'm gonna have to sacrifice everything I love and care about to stay with them. And it's like, no, I'm not gonna do that shit. Like, no, like, he doesn't turn, he doesn't turn, uh, he doesn't turn like that.

But like, uh, my first time reading that, I was like, I don't believe this fall, like this isn't connecting to me emotionally. And when I realized this time was like, oh, because I didn't understand the character from the very beginning. I wasn't looking at like what led him there and what led him to that moment.

And also that, that, like, that dream. It wasn't, it, it was more like a conjuring, it wasn't like something that like, uh, uh, was just a natural dream. I feel like if you read it that way, you don't really fully appreciate the strings that are being pulled through the Force, like how powerful this, this Sith lord actually is that he's, he's just like doing this stuff to ultimately tear down the Jedi.

This was a very long and consi like a, a very well considered plan on how to build them, bring them down, and it all teetered on that moment where he had to choose. And it's so clear that Palpatine, like, uh, as he's emerging as Palpatine, right? uh, he. Is playing them like a fiddle. Like he literally is like acting like, oh, I'm so weak, I can't do it.

No. Anakin come and like, a's like, no, I can't. I'm torn. And like, and then like he, he, he LOBs off Mac's hands. And then, and then all of a sudden, all of a sudden it's like, just kidding. I have all the power. And like, it's like it's, it's really, he's playing them all like a fiddle and he understands that like, Anakin's not even gonna get it.

Like he could do all that out in the open and he doesn't have to worry about Anakin even realizing that the wool is pulled over his eyes like that. It's, it's, it's an interesting fault. It's actually, I think it's a little chef's kiss when you start to really appreciate what was

playing out there.

[00:49:43] JONNY: it goes to your past observation when, not to sound too facetious, but when you're like, is Anakin stupid? Because, uh, Anakin didn't have a chance in that moment. And I think one of the reasons why is, um, threefold. One Anakin's sort of like just blunt. Behavior and mentality about everything, the simpleness of his mind.

Uh, two, when we were talking about how Anakin's the best warrior and Obi-Wan is the best like learner and wiser one, he can outsmart people. Palpatine's greatest weapon is playing people against each other. They show him kicking ass like maybe five minutes beforehand just to show that like he can't be trifled with because he's a strong Jedi.

But like, it's not about Palpatine's prowess, it's about Palpatine being a, a Iago, like in Othello. It's like him being like a, a, a genius when it comes to politics. so you have these two aspects, and then who's the Jedi that Anakin has to choose? Mace Windu. The most stoic cold Jedi of the bunch who couldn't give a fuck about Anakin at any given day.

Who, who was repeatedly told Anakin like, yeah, yeah, yeah, go sit down. We're not listening to you. So like when you have that trifecta there, Anakin was gonna make no other choice but to help Palpatine cuz Palpatine showed a humane interest in Anakin that he never got out of Mace Windu. If it were Obi-Wan Kenobi or if it were Qui-Gon Jin, I don't think Anakin would've made the same decision, especially if it were Qui-Gon Jin, or, uh, if, who knows because he died.

But like, but I don't think Obi-Wan, I don't think if Obi-Wan was there, he would've made the same decision. But because it was Mace, it made it so much easier for him to choose the bad side subconsciously because he never cared about him.

So the fall like.

[00:51:40] BRACEY: Qui-Gon was there, I think if Qui-Gon had been raising him, he would've

[00:51:44] JONNY: And never even when gotten to

that Yeah, Qui-Gon would've figured it out probably in the previous movie.

[00:51:50] BRACEY: Yeah,

[00:51:51] JONNY: absolutely. And also, not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but one thing I've always said about Luke Skywalker and the original trilogy that made him special, which I think is something that they, they, they kind of made a mistake on with the Mandalorian universe, is that I think Luke's biggest strength was his love for his friends and family and his faith in them.

And like that's what brought him back to the light was the belief in his father was, uh, everything he did was for everyone else. And, um, Qui-Gon being as wise as he is, I wouldn't even be surprised if, if he lived, if he actually would've been like, it's time to get Anakin's mother to Coruscant at some point.

Like he might have cuz he even tried to get her out and Watto was like, no. So I wonder if after that whole Duel of the Fates fight, if he lived, if after like a little bit he's like, okay, now let's go back with like an offer that Watto cannot refuse. Let's make him a fucking uber rich man and to get Shmi. And then that might have happened.

But it's not something that did happen because Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi were still going by the old philosophy. I don't wanna go down that

[00:53:03] BRACEY: well, I also wonder if that was part of the plan. Like to me it's like, what if it wasn't, he wasn't too far from the age in which he would've been able to do that. And just before he gets to that age where he could actually get her out of, of this, like all of a sudden she's killed by what we now know from the Boba Fett Series is, it isn't necessarily this like evil, awful, uh, uh, mindless group of thugs.

Like it, it starts to a little bit more like, oh, looks like that was intended. It was an

[00:53:41] JONNY: Who's to say? I mean, like,

[00:53:44] BRACEY: Pavlo Pavlo something.

[00:53:46] JONNY: there, I mean like there, there are conspiracies within the movies of like, uh, did Palpatine create Anakin? Did Palpatine actually use the force to kill padme, yada, yada, yada. But, um, I just think that's all fine and dandy as long as it's like his character works on screen by like, but like the, like, that's all fine and Danny, but the, the fact that they do a good enough job to show that he's a genius with interpersonal behavior, I think that's all you really need because like, whether

[00:54:18] BRACEY: disagree with that.

[00:54:20] JONNY: Because Because

[00:54:20] BRACEY: that because, uh, because

[00:54:21] JONNY: cuz with me, it's like

[00:54:22] BRACEY: the, in the force, uh, uh, the story that they've set up in the, in the site that they s like in the power that they're, uh, uh, they're suggesting that they have like, uh, the scene in Empire where Luke is sitting with Yoda.

A Yoda, just like low key is like long. I've watched this kid always, always like, you know, looking off into the SARS and never his mind on where he was?

and what he's doing, right? Like, it's like, think about someone as powerful as Yoda, if not more powerful than Yoda, who is on the dark side with that exact same power. Like thi like, and that's the, that's the story that they set up. The subtle thing is like when you start to realize why, why is city is setting up what he did the way that he did. It's like he, he's been manipulating him and I feel like it's pretty clear that those weren't just dreams when you start to think about it, that like he had this horrible premonition and then all of a sudden his mom happened to die.

It's like,

[00:55:29] JONNY: Well, I think, um, I think it's one of those things where it's like a combination of two. And I feel like, um, to the movie's credit, uh, uh, which is something I usually don't say very often, but to the movie's credit, they give you enough of Palpatine's character and behavior to show his long game conman manipulation, to show how he can easily exploit something that was unexpected.

He rolls with punches like a motherfucker. And so like, I, like a lot of people believe like, oh, palpatine, Uh, through the fight with Mace Windu, uh, and whatever. And I, I was like, and I always thought, like, I don't think Palpatine threw the fight with Mace Windu. I think Palpatine knew that Anakin was probably gonna show up, but I think like once Anakin showed up, Palpatine's like, adjust, pivot, and then he just pivoted to win the situation.

Whereas Mace Wind couldn't do that.

[00:56:28] BRACEY: But he needed, he needed Anakin to do exactly what Anakin did, like the

[00:56:33] JONNY: he did. I, I, I think

[00:56:35] BRACEY: came down to Anakin being that

[00:56:38] JONNY: I think he, I think he just anticipated him just showing up. Like I think he actually ex expected Anakin to walk in through the door with everybody else. Uh, but yeah, I think Palpatine was the one that put the dreams in Anakin's head that made him think that Padme was gonna die. Uh, stuff like that.

Maybe he was the one that killed Padme too. I mean, he does say the Vader at the end, you know, uh, it seems that you've killed Padme, how would Palpatine know that Padme's dead? Cuz he wasn't there when she died. As far as they knew she was still alive. Who knows? I don't know. But like, I just think it just, it, it makes his character richer in the sense of like, um, not in power, but just some sort of like a diabolical scheming way.

Like he's a real motherfucker and that's what I like about him in this movie.

[00:57:22] BRACEY: I, I, I would, I would just end that off by saying like, I think that the kind of mystery that I always, uh, loved the original se the original series for the original trilogy, for that magic, that mystery, that weight of like what happened in the past. I feel like the version of that in these movies is like, actually, what is the extent of palpatine's power?

Like, like unlimited power. Like we just kind of tossed that off like a, like a throwaway, but like what is the extent of his power? Like, and I feel like that those movies were kind of constructed to really make you sit with that like, This guy is a lot more powerful than, uh, we give him credit for.

And to some extent it is our arrogance. We are taking the position of the Jedi. We are not appreciating how powerful this guy actually is. And somehow we believe that the, uh, uh, we are seeing more than, uh, you know, we are, we're not seeing, uh, what the film is intending or, or not. I dunno, I, I just feel like there's something sitting there that's just like this kind of, it's kind of a cool

[00:58:31] JONNY: Yeah, I, I guess the only thing like I really say is, um, if we're just talking about powers and stuff like that and the effects on people like from across different planets, , there's a lot he could have done with other people, including Luke Skywalker. So I kind of lean a little bit more towards, , him just being, manipulative and exploitive.

That being said, though, the script is as such where like, yeah, man, like it's possible. Like, that's the

thing

Like, like it, it's it's possible, you know,

[00:59:02] JOSH: well, but also like. Luke is a little different because now once you know what Palpatine was up to, like he has Obi-Wan protecting him. He has Yoda protecting him. He has like, and then there's also, you know, the emperors won. Like, he, he doesn't, he's not trying. Yeah.

He, he's not trying to you know, manipulate another, pit bull. I think it's another example of what you're saying, Jon, of he's rolling with the punches. We see it happen and Empire Strikes Back where, um, you know, he is like, The Son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi. And then he senses some hesitation, in Vader, and I think his calculation changes at that point.

He's like, okay, I'm gonna see what he does.

[00:59:48] JONNY: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:48] JOSH: Worst case scenario, I will turn the son and have him kill his father.

[00:59:53] JONNY: And then? kind of like how we're talking about how there's two different Yodas, there's also two different Obi-Wans, and obviously there should be two different Emperors, and he gets really conceited by Return of the Jedi. He always was, but like just the idea that like once Vader says, what if we turn him?

It seems that by Return of the Jedi, The Emperor kind of like really

[01:00:14] JOSH: Knows.

[01:00:16] JONNY: Well, and like, he, He,

he leans into it so much and then he's like, I, he's like hoping that he'll kill Vader,

[01:00:22] JOSH: he kinda is hoping, he kinda, hoping that he is gonna kill Vader. Yeah. Uh,

[01:00:25] JONNY: and then when he's, I was just gonna say, and then when he's electrocuting Luke Skywalker, he can't even fucking sense that like, Vader's like troubled next to him.

He's just so like, he's like, I own your dad. I own you. I own this. This is my house. He's just so

[01:00:42] BRACEY: He got to his own point of his own arrogance. He got taken down by his own arrogance,

[01:00:47] JONNY: His own arrogance is what killed him, because if he was paying attention, he would've sensed that Vader was like not having it while it was happening,

[01:00:54] BRACEY: But I think that's like, I think to some extent that is the point of, I think the movies in which, uh, George was trying to construct is that it is not necessarily about the, uh, the light side or the dark side. It is about, uh, when you get to the height of power, you have the height of ignorance, and then you are ultimately taken down by your own bias,

[01:01:23] JONNY: Yeah. Your own

[01:01:24] BRACEY: inability to see what is, what, what is directly in front of you.

Um,

[01:01:28] JONNY: right. You, it's the arrogance and complacency that brings everyone down. At a certain

point, that's how Rome falls. That's how the empire falls. That's how the republic fell.

[01:01:36] JOSH: And, you know, which is arguably how this country's gonna fall,

[01:01:39] JONNY: Yep. That's how every major nation falls

[01:01:41] BRACEY: three

[01:01:42] JONNY: through arrogance and complacency.

[01:01:44] JOSH: Right. Um, you know, it's interesting, uh, just hearing you say that, like for me, It's virtually impossible not to read this story as being directly influenced by George Lucas's. divorce. Like, I think that, um, you know, he, he had his empire. he had gotten his empire. He built Skywalker Ranch, and I think Marcia Lucas leaving him for another man really devastated him. Similarly to how, you know, in this movie, how, how Anakin he's so afraid of losing Padme, Padme is, you know, the center of his universe.

It's, he says, um, uh, just help me save pad May's life. I can't live without her. Right.

[01:02:27] BRACEY: Yeah.

[01:02:29] JOSH: and I think, you know, Marsha leaving George, I think sent George Lucas on. dark and difficult road where he had to learn how to let go and accept loss without turning into himself a, a bitter and an evil man.

And, um, you know, I know I'm, a little, a little armchair psychology here, but what I think George Lucas is presenting here is actually very personal and it's a cautionary tale. I think it's supposed to be a warning of what can happen if you don't learn how to accept or deal with loss and change, and how you have to loosen your grip. And I also think, I don't know how much of this was intentional, but I find it very striking watching it now in, in 2023. I always thought that Anakin's fall in the fall of the Republic, the fall of democracy was, just sort of like a little, a bit of, neat parallelism, but watching it now, I can't help but see a direct connection to what happens when as individuals, when we become selfish and turn inward.

And we only care about you know, what's ours. And, um, we make decisions like how Anakin makes a decision to, with Insidious because he's, he's only concerned about saving what matters to him. And you know, when, people make choices like the choice that Anakin makes that's what leads democracies to fall to fascism.

[01:03:54] JONNY: Well also we didn't even bring it up, but um, this movie came out during the height of the War on Terror,

you know, so, um, it was talked about when it came out, and it's talked about still, but like, it seems very much like also an indictment of like the Bush era sort of government policies of just like

going through these countries thinking we could do whatever we want.

[01:04:14] JOSH: yeah, I think that's, definitely there and it's definitely intentional. but I think what's striking to me now is what read then, as you know, kind of a, like facile maybe simplistic depiction or reading of, how the world works. today, I think actually reads as, um, more prescient,

[01:04:34] JONNY: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:35] JOSH: um,

[01:04:35] JONNY: Then even back then,

[01:04:37] JOSH: yeah, more literally true.

kind of relevant statement,

[01:04:42] BRACEY: an apology to, to some extent, like, like almost like, maybe not, not, not an apology, but just like a recognition of self, like a vulnerable, like, I'm going to use myself and really represent. My fall and, and, and possibly like how he, he sees his, I dunno, his, um, his own imperfections and like how, how that gets portrayed out as, as, as Anakin.

[01:05:10] JOSH: well that's actually, I mean, that's actually really beautiful and I, um, you know, you're making me think, it is really interesting that this is George Lucas's final statement on Star Wars, on, politics, on what he thinks it means to, live a good life and like how to be a good person.

He ends it on the fall. And of course, like that was an accident of, of history. I don't know that that was, the intention like, but that's how it happened. and what is kind of interesting is that if you keep watching in story order, it becomes about the child of the hero and how the child redeems the parent.

[01:05:50] BRACEY: Mm-hmm.

[01:05:51] JOSH: And I think,

whereas Luke Skywalker was, I think, pretty clearly the selfer character for George Lucas when he was a younger man, I think that Anakin Skywalker is, Similarly a Selfer character, but when he's an older man, and I think the fact that like, the legacy is sort of the children that you leave behind and what what they do think is really interesting.

And I'm reminded, you know, Bracey you mentioned, earlier that there's this moment where Anakin says the happiest moment of his life was the moment where he learned he was gonna become a father. And I'm reminded of this, um, I think it was an interview with Charlie Rose that George Lucas did, I think it was Charlie Rose.

Um, but it was an interview from, from a few years ago, where. He was asked like, what do you hope your legacy is? Or what, do people remember about you? And without, batting an eye, the first thing that George Lucas said was that I was a good dad.

[01:06:51] JONNY: Hmm.

[01:06:51] JOSH: You know, not like as the creator of Star Wars or as like a, a revolutionary filmmaker who revolutionized said to me, he was like, he was like, I want to be remembered first and foremost as a good dad.

[01:07:01] BRACEY: Yeah.

[01:07:01] JOSH: think, I think that, the legacy of what you leave behind for your children and the children that you raise, I think, I think that's George Lucas's final statement on

[01:07:15] BRACEY: Yeah, I, I, I agree. And, and yeah, I, I completely agree. And after watching this again, I totally see how these movies are a long, a long throw story to his kids in the future. Like, it's like, it's like this long throw of like, yeah. And he always says he plays this so well. He's like, no, it's a movie for kids.

It's a movie for kids. It's a movie for kids about the fall of Empires, right? Like it's about, it's about a movie for kids, about how our own hubris leads to our own downfall. And, and like, it's a story. It's a kid. It's for kids. It's for kids. But he's like, really? It's like, what are the things that I might not be able to say to them directly in life?

I'm going to give them this movie. So, uh, it seeps in over time and they see, oh wait, that was dad there? Like, you know, like, that was Dad making those mistakes. Or this is dad, like, you know, this is his story. And he got to say exactly what he wanted to say. And I feel like they were specifically the target audience.

They're not kids anymore, but I think they were when he was making these.

[01:08:26] JONNY: I, uh, I agree. I, I also think that I, I kind of think that he's been kind of like this for his, his whole career. Cuz I mean, Star Wars was made with kids in mind and then, uh, the technology was made for the future. And then like, it's almost like, um, he's like, let me show kids what a hero's journey is. So they have, uh, role models and he's like, let me show people what, uh, HD digital technology is so we can see what we could do for the future for film.

And like everything's thinking about the future for the next generation. So I totally see that. And then, correct me if I'm wrong, Josh, but. Did he have like a, a weird relationship with his dad? Like,

did, was,

[01:09:07] JOSH: much a weird

[01:09:08] JONNY: not like scandalous, but just like

a He had to

prove himself to a

[01:09:12] JOSH: yeah. Yeah. He had to prove himself. I mean, uh uh, basically, his dad wanted him to take over the family business,

[01:09:19] JONNY: Yeah. And he is

[01:09:20] JOSH: was like,

[01:09:20] JONNY: a filmmaker or

[01:09:21] JOSH: yeah. And his dad was like, yeah. And his dad was like, What is that like? Like, that's not a real thing

[01:09:27] BRACEY: I wanna be a YouTuber dad. Uh, what,

[01:09:30] JONNY: but, but everything's always to, uh, everything's always to the hopefulness of the future, you know? Like even THX is like the oppression of the authority and going against it, American Graffiti. Like, he was thinking about like, what's the future gonna be for these kids with like, how are they gonna lead their lives?

Like, it's always thinking about what's the next day going to be. So yeah, I think it's, I think his whole career could be kind of seen through that lens.

[01:09:55] BRACEY: he also, he doesn't ha like it's, he, he lives in this world of nostalgia, but doesn't have nostalgia for the medium in which he, which carries his story like, right? Like I feel like he has nostalgia for the things that he experienced, but the things that he would, he was doing, he's not like, oh, I want filmmaking to be like this forever.

He's like, no, let's get this stuff, let's get this stuff moving. So I could tell my story and

[01:10:17] JONNY: If it's obsolete, it's obsolete. He

[01:10:20] BRACEY: in which I'm telling it.

[01:10:22] JONNY: Yeah, exactly. Whereas, , once he leaves Star Wars and then Disney starts making the sequel trilogy, the sequel, uh, trilogy is nothing but nostalgic for what Star Wars was. which is a big departure from George Lucas cuz, you know, whatever George was gonna do, he was gonna push it forward, whether we agreed with it or not, you know?

[01:10:45] JOSH: , yeah, and you know, I think, uh, you know, George Lucas was quoted as saying, in regards to The Force Awakens, like he was a very retro movie. And,

[01:10:54] JONNY: Yeah. He came out kind of against it

[01:10:57] JOSH: I mean, without

[01:10:58] BRACEY: In a George, in a George Way, in a Georgie way, he came out

again.

[01:11:03] JOSH: I mean,

[01:11:03] JONNY: Without quoting it, but yeah. But it was just like, it was just his frustration of seeing his vision go to other people and having them kind of disregard, I guess, his own.

[01:11:13] JOSH: You know, Jon, you were saying about how they, uh, made a mistake with Luke and the Mandoverse, but I would argue that that's kind of the point, like Luke makes a mistake, by not learning from what, why he was successful.

And he thinks it's his job to take up the mantle of the Jedi and rebuild the rebuild, rebuild the Jedi the way that they were. And I think that that leads him to where we ultimately see, hey, he ends up in, uh, The Last Jedi, and then Yoda grows again. And he has to be the one like, don't you understand, man?

Like, I was wrong. We were wrong.

You were right.

[01:11:53] BRACEY: Which this movie makes that whole movie, understanding three makes that whole thing even better. Like, like Luke's journey is Yoda's journey in episode three.

[01:12:06] JOSH: Y Yeah. like

yeah, like he's one step behind.

[01:12:09] BRACEY: yeah,

yeah, exactly.

[01:12:11] JONNY: but my, my, my thing is, is that, um, if you have a movie that shows a character or story where, uh, shows a character learning lessons, and then the movie ends where they've learned these lessons, and then the next time you see them, they have forgotten those lessons. I feel like that's a bit redundant and it's, it's something that happens quite a, quite a lot actually with a lot of these franchises.

And, um, it happened with like, uh, Scarlet, which, uh, after she went through the whole Wanda Vision thing, she learned her lesson. And then the next time you see her, she's repeating the same arc and Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness and. Uh, with Star Wars in particular, it's not even just Luke, it's also Din Jarrin.

I was listening to your season three, uh, podcast earlier, and it was great. Um, but by the end of season one, Mandos learning that not all ro all robots are bad, by the end of season two, Mando was taken off his helmet willy-nilly cuz he knows that that's not as important as, uh, doing the right thing and, and the, the people that he loves in his life.

And then in episode one of season three and for the whole season, he's like, fuck robots never take my helmet off. And it's like, dude, what happened to all the lessons he learned in seasons

[01:13:24] BRACEY: Yeah. Yeah. No, that was a little discarded and I don't think that was, that was Jon Fros.

[01:13:29] JONNY: but you know, I'm, I'm making a, I'm making a joke out of it, but it's just like, it's like what happened to all that character growth? And like, and I feel like with, with, uh, Luke, I thought, like, I always thought before they made the new movies, And the shows obviously, that by the end of Return to The Jedi, Luke was going to be different because he himself represented balance.

He was like, listen, you can't just disregard the things that we care about. The things that we care about is what wins us the day. That's how he succeeded. And then the next time we see him, I guess in the lore, which is Mandalorian, he's like, yeah, fuck all that. It's just like, and it's just like, what happened to his arc?

So it's just more of like a storytelling thing. I don't care if he fails. I think it's great when every character fails. I mean, like the Godfather's one of the best fucking movies ever, and it's about this guy failing, failing, failing. So, um, I just think it's about how, how do you execute that idea? And I think they could have executed the same idea with just a different angle.

You know, give him a situation that he's never been in before. see that.

[01:14:36] JOSH: I dunno. I mean, for a story arc that's, , being written by multiple different, people over generations, I think it, I mean, I think it hangs together pretty decently. but yeah, I take your point.

[01:14:48] JONNY: Yeah,

[01:14:49] JOSH: Um,

[01:14:50] JONNY: I didn't, I'm not like livid about it, but it's just

one of

[01:14:52] JOSH: No, no, no. Um, any closing thoughts about, Star Wars Episode Three Revenge of the Sith?

[01:14:58] JONNY: Uh, to go with what Bracey was saying earlier. And I agree. I think this, this, this movie has the most in it out of any Star Wars movie to dig into. Um, if you wanna dig into specifically lore like, and, uh, storyline. This movie has got all the politics, all the philosophies, All of the ways things can go wrong and how they go wrong.

And I think that watching it this time, I was like, that element of the movie is, is really strong. And on top of that, everyone's commitment to this movie, to this vision was really strong. And I find that to be very admirable. Um, I'm not sure it's as cohesive as I like, I'm not sure aesthetically it's as pleasing as I would like.

Um, I think sometimes they concentrate on certain aspects over other aspects that I thought could have used a little bit more spotlight. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's an epic. It's, it's definitely an epic and in many ways, and, um, it's not to everyone's, taste, but, uh, it, you can't really fault it for swinging for the fences, which is what it does.

[01:16:16] BRACEY: Uh, yeah, and I, I just like to say I coming back to it after some years of growth on my own, just like a really. I really appreciate this movie a lot more, uh, than I did before. And actually I am just kind of grateful that I got to see it more for what it was, uh, than what I had wanted it to be because like now I just, like, there's so much, there's so much more there that I just wasn't, I wasn't able to access.

Um, and I can see that was, you know, cuz it was just my own state of mind and just accepting it for what it was actually ended up becoming really fruitful. And it was, you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm glad, uh, we had this opportunity to discuss it because I wouldn't have given another chance for probably another decade or so.

So I'm glad that, uh, I'm glad that

it

[01:17:05] JONNY: with you. I'm with you on that. I wouldn't have re-watched it if it weren't for this, and I was glad to re-watch it, even just to get like a deeper look at it.

[01:17:12] JOSH: Now well said, well said. Both of you. I echo, uh, uh, both of what, uh, you guys are saying. I think, um, you know, revisiting it all these years later, I think, I'm, I'm picking up on different things, different things are resonating with me. Um, you know, the movie hasn't changed. It's, it's, it's, it's me.

That's changed my perspective. That's changed. And, um, You know, it's got a lot of George Lucas's idiosyncrasies in terms of, you know, the things that he enjoys seeing and the way he presents things. Um, uh, but I said this on, the episode two podcasts. I think, you know, in this age of, you know, generative AI and all of these discussions happening about, what the future of the art form, I mean, of what many art forms, but, uh, here specifically, what film and movies are gonna be, I think, in a weird way, those idiosyncrasies are, are all the more important.

Like, those, those imperfections, amusing air quotes, like those imperfections are, what gives movies character and, Resonance. So ironically, I think I appreciate it more for the things about it that I would, you know, maybe have once upon a time considered flaws or, or rough edges.

I think, um, you know, for better or worse, like this is a pure expression of one person's imagination and thoughts and ideas and beliefs, and I think it's, it's really special.

[01:18:43] BRACEY: Here. Here.

[01:18:45] JONNY: Here,

here.

[01:18:46] JOSH: liked what you heard, please visit trash com pod.com where you can find transcripts of this episode in our other episodes or drop us a line at trash com pod gmail.com.

Let us know what you liked or didn't like or what you might wanna hear about on future episodes. And we are trash com pod across all social media, and we will see you on the next one.

[01:19:07] BRACEY: You're very good at that outro. Oh.