Fuck the Empire Up: ANDOR SEASON 1

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh on this, the final episode of Trash Compactor for 2022. Uh, we're gonna be talking about Andor season one. And joining me today is Mickey

[00:00:13] MICKEY: Hey.

[00:00:14] JOSH: And Bracey.

[00:00:16] BRACEY: Yellow.

[00:00:18] JOSH: So, you know, in our first Andor reaction episode, we talked about how, it seemed like this was Star Wars, if Star Wars grew up alongside us.

[00:00:25] Bracey, do you think the rest of the season, , is consistent with that, that reading? And also what are your, your overall thoughts of the show from having seen season one?

[00:00:37] BRACEY: Yeah. I absolutely think that it continued to grow up, in fact, in ways that I, it was so much more mature than I even thought in those, in the reading of the first four episodes, it, um, it, it grew up. Star Wars grew up and it felt, it felt great. It felt. It felt like, uh, meeting an old friend again. Uh, and I, I really enjoyed the ride.

[00:00:59] JOSH: Uh, Mickey, I guess I'll phrase it slightly differently. Do you still agree , that that's the best way to describe what Andor is, is Star Wars if Star Wars grew up?

[00:01:10] MICKEY: I agree. Maybe I'll be a little, I'll, I'll, I'll throw it a little bit of loop where I, where it's like if Star Wars grew up with it, or almost if in an alternate universe this is what got made in like 2000, you know, the episode one, the prequels never came out and instead this was made instead, you know, um, like, because I definitely also think in terms of Tony Gilroy, this is his most, like, you know, in terms of where he went from Michael Clayton on out, this is his most Michael Clayton ish work.

[00:01:37] Um, too, like he's kind of like, to me, I almost felt like he's kind of gone a little less like as. , um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Sirius or something, you know, he's got a little bit more genre, um, with his post my play. And this is kind of returning to those roots, um, in the Star Wars universe in that way.

[00:01:56] Um, and, and to that thing, it's like, yeah, this shows an amazing, um, it, it's an amazing character study, study of movements and, um, you know, stuff. And, and, and ultimately to the thing that I just really appreciate it for, I think more than anything, it's just the, the writing in terms of like the monologue is monologue and is just, just amazing.

[00:02:18] Just like po you know, it reaches it's almost kind of to a point where it's almost, it's unrealistic. Well, I mean, it's Star Wars, so who cares, right? But like, you know, it's, it's like, oh, you know, not Shakespearean and that that's, it's copying it, but the idea that it has, its kind of singular, its own singular language and beats and stuff, um, that, that it kind of like has its own feel and, and, and it's, and the language department like that, um, and it's all the better for it.

[00:02:42] JOSH: Uh, no, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. That reminds me of something that we were talking about in, , the first Andor reaction pod we did, where we were talking about the use of language in the show and how it was using it in a very sophisticated way. And yeah, you know, this is certainly heightened, um, but it's not heightened in the way we are used to Star Wars being heightened.

[00:03:01] , and I think it, really allows for something really unique where you can tell this, realistic, grounded, story about. , revolution and, , movements and fighting fascism. And, you know, it really gets into the, on the ground point of view of it, versus I think most Star Wars, particularly the original trilogy and the prequels are really focused on the broad strokes of the people at the top of the movement. I mean, this is, the people on the ground and to quote Tony Gilroy from an interview he gave the original gangsters of the rebellion. Right. And like, we forget the, the rebels in the original trilogy are the Rebel Alliance, the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

[00:03:45] And it's an alliance between all of these factions who, you know, we are seeing , have different ideologies and different beliefs. , they're all united in common cause in opposition to the Empire And, you know, we're seeing the nitty gritty of how that alliance is formed. And I think, you know, some of my favorite scenes in the season were, the scenes with, Luthen and Saw where, you're really, seeing those ideological conflicts played out.

[00:04:19] Which again, I think is, very true to the material reality of what, goes on in real revolutionary movements and real I don't wanna say leftist , movements, but that's what I'm, thinking of. I think, you know, revolutionary movement is more, is more appropriate.

[00:04:34] MICKEY: I think revolution cuz I mean, you know, it's almost like when, whenever you listen to like some history podcasts we're having, they, they talk about the Roman factions, right? Or whatever the, the, the pearls and stuff. It's like, you, you can't actually put that right in the perspective of leftism verse Right.

[00:04:48] You know, and I, I

[00:04:48] feel like you you can probably make this thing argument about Star Wars , you know, like there wasn't the modernist philosophy movement that then you can also say that like, these, like what we think of traditionally left or right is like born in, within our modern world. Um, so, you know, I, I think there's argument, I mean there's definitely argument to me, and I think it's true that it's, you can, you know, it's a leftist show, but at a certain point, maybe more, a better way to think about it is.

[00:05:11] A a, a show about, I wouldn't say it's a revolutionary. I mean, that's a whole other question is like, what makes the the work itself a revolutionary or leftist work or a work about leftism or revolution, you know, which, you know, I, I, I think, you know, like, Andor Zan, like, you know, Andor certainly not, uh, uh, Godard with his editing style that you can also say is create is used in the medium to also be revolutionary at the same time.

[00:05:34] But it's definitely about revolution, right? Um, at, at the

[00:05:37] very least, if not left, it's definitely a show about revolution and isn't what you're saying the rebel line, that that's one of those things you gotta think about when you think of Star Wars. Like how much was that plan? You know, what, what did you actually get outta Star War when you go back and watch and like the rebel, the alliance, the store, you know, the, the whatever.

[00:05:50] And it's like, was that just something cool sounding right that Lucas said? No, that sounds like a cool. You know, and, and now, and now you get to play in the

[00:05:57] sandbox. But he made this cool thing, and now Tony Goway is like, oh, the, the alliance to restore the, you know, that's, oh, let's play with that. I, or I guess probably Rebels did it beforehand, you know, but that it's like a, just a, a cool like sounding thing Lucas made that now gets to become more fleshed out and everything.

[00:06:14] Um, but it's, but also, like Tony Gilroy, that thing, same thing, said he's a history and that's, that's what like the Russian revolution was. There was many factions that joined at the, you know, the white, you know, like the whites and everything. So it's, it's, that's very historically kind of accurate in that regard.

[00:06:28] BRACEY: Yeah. And, and for us who didn't grow up, uh, with the Rebels, uh, uh, TV shows and stuff like that, or the, the, uh, or what's the series? The Clone Wars? Like, uh, uh, there's no reason for us to care about the Star Wars universe outside of the context of the movies and, and what we've seen in the, in the later shows.

[00:06:47] But I feel like this show finally because it dives into the factions and like what's going on and like, what built up the rebellion, how it was formed, it actually gives us a way to care about the world of Star Wars outside of the family of the Skywalkers, which is really like, I, I really, I really appreciate that, like there's depth there that I get to like dive.

[00:07:10] JOSH: No, that's a really important point actually. Like, you know, one of the things that people have been saying for the last few years is that, the way for Star Wars to move forward is it's gotta get away from Skywalkers, it's gotta get away from Skywalkers. And even though the show Andor is still set in that original trilogy, imperial era, I think it's as far away from, that as you can get, like, that's why I saw this, um, an article was suggested for me in my feed and I saw the headline is Luthen secretly a Jedi?

[00:07:40] And I'm like, absolutely not. Like , like that is just like, like, I mean, I could tell you definitively, like I would bet my life that, that he's not secretly a Jedi. Like, that's like here's other thing about that. if Luthen was presented to us, like if this was a Jedi that we were following, that ended up like this.

[00:07:58] That's an interesting story. But, but the character of Luan that we are presented, to all of a sudden discover later that he was once a Jedi and that's like, you know, what is motivating all this or whatever would totally, would totally undercut the whole thing that is being done with his character.

[00:08:17] It's not about Jedi, it's the people on the ground, the citizens who have to, decide. How they're gonna fight. Right. and you know, it's really interesting, um, someone was like, you know, uh, Luthen's past is so mysterious. Like, I wonder, I wonder if we're gonna learn about him.

[00:08:33] And I'm kind of like, I think we know exactly what Luthen was like. He, he owns this antique shop. Right? Like, I think he was an antique dealer. If, I mean, call me crazy. Like, I don't think it's that complicated. Like, I just think he's, I just think, he's a guy he's obviously well off and he's from like, you know, the capital of the galaxy and like these highfalutin senators and whatever are his patrons.

[00:08:55] And so he obviously like, hears a lot of stuff and I think he was just like, fuck. Like, am I gonna let this happen? And he sees an opportunity to do something. And, you know, as reflected in that famous speech that he makes in episode 10 or, by now famous, like, um, he made an equation and he decided to sell his soul, to commit himself, to this dream of a sunrise that he'll never see.

[00:09:16] MICKEY: Yeah. His monologue.

[00:09:17] is like, there is no mystery to his character. His

[00:09:20] monologue is, his character. You don't need, no, that's his past, that's his everything. You know, like, you know, again, if you wanna talk about revolutions, like, you know, these class traitors are, are, are, are major key to a lot of these revolutions.

[00:09:30] You can tell that he's probably like his past, before he got political, he probably still was a stubborn, you know, hard-headed, refused to back down guy. That's probably maybe what makes him a great antiques dealer, right? Like going to

[00:09:41] sellers and being like, I'm

[00:09:42] JOSH: Haggling and Yeah. Right.

[00:09:44] MICKEY: and, and that, that personality hits a new political reality.

[00:09:46] And he's like, I can't accept. I can't accept this. I can't accept the Empire. And it's not, and it

[00:09:51] might not even be political. Right. It might be personal. He's just like, I'm a, I'm a personality type that cannot accept a fascist, you know, rule

[00:09:59] JOSH: Well, Mickey, well, Mickey, the personal is political.

[00:10:02] MICKEY: Well, yeah, yeah.

[00:10:02] JOSH: me up.

[00:10:03] BRACEY: couldn't you, you couldn't knock that down.

[00:10:05] Uh,

[00:10:06] MICKEY: he's not a Jedi until they take away season two from 20 Gilroy and give it to JJ Abrams and then he'll be a Jedi.

[00:10:11] JOSH: well that's, that's actually Bracey and I were saying something similar the other day. What did you say? You were talking about like, the JJ Abrams version of this would be, which I mean, I mean, by the way, I don't wanna shit it on JJ Abrams, like he's very good at what he does, but he does something very different from

[00:10:29] BRACEY: JJ does spectacle and build up to the spectacle, spectacle and a release on that spectacle. And like it's all about, I mean, I, at least in my opinion, uh, uh, everything that I see that he does, uh, his mystery box, it's trying to, uh, it's trying to hit a feeling. And I feel most of the time the feeling is like mystery or spectacle in, in, uh, a spectacle.

[00:10:51] MICKEY: Now I'm thinking that Nope. Is like a movie against the JJ Abrams style of making movies.

[00:10:55] BRACEY: I haven't seen it yet. I, I have, I don't, let's not. Yeah. Um, . But, but,

[00:11:01] MICKEY: it's amazing.

[00:11:02] BRACEY: yeah, I, this is what I hear. This is what I hear. Um, oh man, I, I, I derailed my train of thought. There was something

[00:11:08] MICKEY: Sorry.

[00:11:09] BRACEY: to

[00:11:09] JOSH: Uh,

[00:11:09] BRACEY: I'll, it's all

[00:11:10] JOSH: jj. JJ Spectacle, creating a feeling mystery box.

[00:11:14] BRACEY: The, yeah. No,

[00:11:15] JOSH: Well see. See Cuz I would agree, my thing with JJ is I think he's less concerned, not, completely disinterested, but I think he's less concerned about the, substance of what the story is actually about.

[00:11:28] Not to say that he doesn't think that that's a necessary ingredient. Like I think that there are themes and there are, uh, there is an about ness in, his Star Wars movies. but I just think that they're very, um, not superficial, but it's sort of not the point of the exercise. It's sort of, it's sort of the excuse for the spectacle, um, whereas something like this, like, Andor, and, and I personally would argue, The Last Jedi is that there is something that they are trying to say first and foremost,

[00:12:01] MICKEY: Yeah.

[00:12:01] JOSH: that, that, that, that Star Wars becomes a vehicle for,

[00:12:05] MICKEY: mm-hmm.

[00:12:06] BRACEY: I, I, I got the, I got the train of thought again. Uh, so what I was gonna say, uh, uh, I also saw the content of, of Luthen, um, I, I saw that being like, oh, is this like, he's some, some Jedi. And I feel like there is a, a, a tie to the people who were created because of the JJ era of Star Wars, that now everybody has just been trained to look for Easter eggs and like, did you catch that?

[00:12:31] And they don't really have any, like, they don't have the mental facility to like deep dive into the content and they're just like, they're just trying to, like the thing that they learn, they're trying to apply it to this, this, this new content. It just doesn't fit.

[00:12:45] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. Well, they've been trained to watch Star Wars in a certain way. Right. and, you know, this show I don't think operates like any other Star Wars does. so that actually, brings me to a question that I thought about, opening with, it's only slightly facetious, but, um, is this the best Star Wars it's ever been?

[00:13:05] Uh, Bracey your thoughts?

[00:13:08] BRACEY: Uh, for me, uh, the answer is yeah, like the answer is, is this is, uh, uh, for what I want. Uh, I want to see my media grow and change and start to grapple with new content and ideas and, uh, uh, current themes and, uh, uh, re-explore what I, what people are talking about in, in our, in the current day, but maybe in a way that like disassociates us from the things that we hold dear.

[00:13:38] Uh, so we're, we're able to actually like,

[00:13:40] JOSH: Yeah, because it's at a slight remove because it is, at the end of the day, it is Star Wars. It is fantasy. So you can, so you can, uh,

[00:13:47] BRACEY: you're willing to engage with it. You're more willing to engage with different perspectives because it's coming through medium. That isn't it, it it's fantasy or it's, it's a little escapism.

[00:13:59] JOSH: yeah. So you don't, right, so you don't have your hackles up immediately the way that you would if you were talking about like real history or like, like the real world, uh, uh, real, uh, world politics. And that actually ties into something. of another question I was gonna ask later, which, um, I think Mickey, you actually kind of already addressed was that, I kept seeing Like in the Twitter sphere, while Andor was on various versions of the question is Andor a leftist show. And, you know, setting that aside for a second, what I found really fascinating is I had many interactions with, people on Twitter. And also I would just see it of a lot of right-leaning, conservatives also latched onto this show and thought it was a reflection of their values, which I thought was very interesting.

[00:14:46] uh, you know, the reason is I think in fantasy it's very easy to use the bad guys as sort of a vessel for, for whatever you hate and the struggle against it as, the struggle for whatever you value. So you sort of, could read it on a superficial level.

[00:15:05] I think that that's, like I read one take from someone that, the prison on nor five, represented like Soviet style communism and totalitarianism, and this was a struggle against that. And I'm like, I mean, no, but fine. I don't think that that's what that was supposed to be, but like, if, if that's what you're seeing, then like, I, I don't know what to tell you,

[00:15:27] MICKEY: if, if you think that Gulag system was bad, wait until you hear about the actual prison, , industry that

[00:15:32] JOSH: yes. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. That

[00:15:34] MICKEY: Like, how do, how do you think they make made those jets? You know, like they

[00:15:37] JOSH: that was actually, that was actually a reply. Someone replied with exactly that, to that tweet. Uh, but anyway, uh, Mickey, is this the best that Star Wars has ever been?

[00:15:47] MICKEY: First of all, you're not gonna get how to answer that question. I wanna make sure as you, you know, hosting, I wanna make sure you answer that question too. So let's not forget that.

[00:15:54] Um, so when I'm, yeah, when I'm done, um, yes and no. Um, that would be my answer. My answer is, is it a better work of a, I mean, okay, let's put aside movie for Steve or just like work of a filmic, you know, whatever it is, you know, you wanna say it is, it is better, if you even wanna say on a technical level, right?

[00:16:14] But Star Wars the star, right? It's Star Wars wouldn't exist if there wasn't Star Wars. A New Hope, you know, whatever New Hope is Star Wars. So the best Star Wars can be is probably really Star Wars, cuz that's what Star Wars. you know, so I, I, I think if you wanna take that outside, you know, in like, just basically be like, Star Wars is this like, very specific cultural piece, you're not gonna observe it on that, on that level, but it's a better, it's a, you know, better I hate to say it, you know, overall acted shot during, you know, like all that stuff and written and then, and then I think does much better.

[00:16:45] Like, my main problem is I actually don't find Star Wars to be too political. You know, I think they're using more p um, like the aesthetics of pol of like past political movements, as pastiche to like

[00:16:54] simplify a story where, where, you know, uh, Andor does not Andor is doing a specific thing and specifically talking about politics.

[00:17:02] Um, so yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, the best star is of, is the best produced thing from Star Wars, whether it's pinnacle Star Wars, you know, that's a whole other thing cuz Star Wars is a very, I think, specific thing to a point, again, that thought, right, this is Star, is it really Star Wars a John Williams score.

[00:17:18] Isn't that part of Star Wars? You know?

[00:17:21] JOSH: Well, well, um,

[00:17:23] MICKEY: And the music's great. I'm not saying that, I'm not saying this music sucks, but I'm just saying like,

[00:17:27] JOSH: the music is awesome.

[00:17:29] The

[00:17:29] MICKEY: good. Especially that last episode. Yeah.

[00:17:32] BRACEY: knew. I knew the moment. I knew the moment that I heard. Uh, uh, kind of that rock theme. And, and, and Cassian was walking. I was like, I was like, Josh . Like, I was like, I was like, Josh, like, I dunno why I was like, I, I see, I, I felt like that was a moment that you would've wanted to be in, in, in

[00:17:55] JOSH: I think, I think that's at the end of episode two, I think. And, the entire score is up on Spotify and it's fan, it's fantastic. but, uh, so Mickey, yeah, like, I, I tend to agree with you. so my answer, to the question is also like, you know, sort of a cop out.

[00:18:14] It's, it's like, it's like yes and no. Like, this is the most well done, most, affecting thing to come out of Star Wars, I think. uh, potentially ever. Um, but it's really working in a different register than Star Wars generally, or frankly, really ever has. And so, to that end, something about Star Wars that is missing from this, and that's okay.

[00:18:41] because it's not the foundational text for Star Wars. it's a derivative of Star Wars, but a very important element, to the original Star Wars, which Mickey, like you said, is, very much a pastiche of a lot of things. Was that like, mythic, Quality that, is lacking from this.

[00:19:00] And I think the limits of that, I think the limits of that approach, with what the rest of Star Wars is, , is probably The Empire strikes back, I think is like the limit of what a certain idea of Star Wars in its original conception could be. And I think what, Andor is, is not, not Star Wars, but it certainly is doing something that no Star Wars has ever done before.

[00:19:27] So, The only thing stopping me from saying that this is the best that Star Wars has ever been is number one, what you said, Mickey, like there is no, Andor without Star Wars, right? Like, as like a cultural artifact. It's like, you know, you can't have this without that. Right. but also the other thing is, is that like, it's doing something very specific that has not. until now existed in Star Wars' wheelhouse. Right. And I think that's why it's so, revelatory. You know, I've heard people say, and I don't disagree that this show is so good that even if it wasn't Star Wars, it would still be amazing. And that's true. but the flip side of that is it's amazing that it is in the Star Wars universe.

[00:20:09] MICKEY: Yeah. Oh, the fact that this happened, that this got made is just absolutely like awesome, but also like a surprise.

[00:20:15] JOSH: No, yeah. I mean, not only is this a surprise, I mean that it was even made, but also, uh, the other thing I mean, is that. there is something to be said for using existing storytelling, universes, franchises, ip, whatever, because of the existing relationship that, people have with it, when you tell us story about revolution in the context of a beloved, you know, film, TV franchise, you are going to hit more people in a way than you would if it was like just its own original thing.

[00:20:50] So, so that's sort of what I mean. It's like there's a reason to utilize, you know, existing, existing properties. . And again, like, just as an aside, I hate, describing all of these like, you know, wonderful, works of art, that I love as like properties or like franchises or, or intellectual property, but for lack of a better word, it's like for utilizing these existing beloved franchises that have these massive audiences that allows you to do things that, , I think they, they take on a different resonance than if you had done the same show was said in some generic sci-fi space.

[00:21:26] Fascist

[00:21:27] setting,

[00:21:28] MICKEY: Yeah.

[00:21:29] BRACEY: There's more weight with the story and I, yeah, I agree with that. The, I I would say, uh, uh, going back to is this be the best Star Wars like. Up until, uh, Rogue One, I felt that Empire was the best. Star Wars, and that was second. And like, yeah, star Wars came first, but I would still be like, empire was the better.

[00:21:49] Star Wars. Like, it was, it was a better, like, I understand it wouldn't exist without Star Wars, uh, without the original, but still given the, given what it was, how it was able to affect and what it was able to, uh, uh, invoke in me, evoke in me. Uh, uh, I I was like, that's just a bet. It's, it's, it's better. Like I, I, you know, I, I and I, and then also after, after, uh, watching the prequels and my, in talking to, Like my, my brother or, or people who are my brother's age, who's about like 10 years younger than I am, uh, uh, they didn't even think about saying that the original Star Wars was good.

[00:22:26] They were like, those are puppets. Like, you know, like they couldn't, they couldn't escape into the fantasy, um, because of the, because of the way that it was made, which I think a lot of people would say about, about things like Dr. Who, like, there, like to me, Matt Smith, David Tene, like best, best Dr. Who like, you know, and it's not the original and it wouldn't exist without the original Dr.

[00:22:49] Who. So, uh, so to me, I, I, I, you know, I don't really, I don't really align with that, but I would also say, uh, uh, that I think this series is going to allow Star Wars to be Star Wars again, because what I feel like what happened since Star Wars is this, Uh, uh, people don't think about how rare Jedis are in the galaxy because all our whole vantage point has been through, through people who are like closely related to them.

[00:23:22] But I feel like this gives us this opportunity to like, grow with characters, care about characters in this world. Get away from that story arc long enough that when like, like a, a couple of series series down the line, all of a sudden somebody flicks a light saver or somebody moves something and people are gonna blow, like, it'll blow their mind.

[00:23:42] They'll be like, holy shit. Like, uh, uh, uh, somebody who, uh, uh, who can use the force. I think that, I think it will give us that opportunity to feel that again. Whereas we're like, I don't think anybody cares if somebody now shows up and they're like, I have the force. Like, no, let go. Yeah. Another force user cool.

[00:23:58] Like, like it's not, it's not really interesting.

[00:24:00] MICKEY: Yeah. Um, there's definitely something that's happened within to me, like, and I haven't really watched them, but just knowing about them what's happened, it's like, why are there so many Jedi after order? Whatever? Like, I thought they're dead. But you keep on, like the nice thing too of what this show does by not having Jedi is a doc doesn't have si, you know, it doesn't have Darth Vader.

[00:24:17] So like what's the, what's the reality of a revolution when Vader comes? Right? But the fact that no, he's, he's off looking for Obiwan. So

[00:24:24] you get see the ISB do the ISB thing, which is what makes this show,

[00:24:27] JOSH: Yeah, dude. Oh God. Like so much of what's in this show is really pushing all my buttons, like, each sort of slice of the story. the Mon Moth ma political stuff. the Luthen stuff, the ISB stuff. like each one of those story threads is like a show in a world that I totally buy, I'm totally invested in.

[00:24:48] There's not a single one where when they cut away to it. I'm like, oh, okay, more of this. I'm less interested in this. like everything. I was like, holy shit. Like this is some good stuff. Like, I think what it comes down to, you know, Mickey is just really the writing and the attention paid to the characters, the truth of the characters and the truth of the situation.

[00:25:12] and it's just, it's just masterfully constructed. It's just like a really exquisitely written show. it's just is, it just is

[00:25:21] MICKEY: just to your point, like there's like, I, I'm pissed. There's only gonna be two seasons

[00:25:25] JOSH: I,

[00:25:25] MICKEY: I, cause it's like, how are you gonna, like, you only got one more season, but I wanna see so much more the ma mamo, like how are you gonna do the ma mamo storyline and her daughter, her daughter's storyline should be much, there should be

[00:25:33] JOSH: That

[00:25:33] was, that,

[00:25:34] that was incredible. Like when I, when you realize, oh my God, like what Mon mak her sacrifice, like, I think it was even in the same episode. Like, you know, what have you, sacrificed? Like her sacrifice, she's gonna have to sacrifice her daughter to this slime

[00:25:49] MICKEY: But then the thing is that they do in the last episode, that's the biggest twist. That's like, it's a line or two that you don't get is her daughter's into it. And like that's a, that's a, that's two. I don't wanna see episodes and episodes on that.

[00:25:59] Like it's kind of, it might, I will say It's

[00:26:01] probably the most online Star Wars show ever because they're literally doing like the, the downtown New York City, like hipsters become trad

[00:26:08] Catholics

[00:26:08] JOSH: yeah. No, no, , but that's what's so fascinating. Like, to your point, uh, one of you said this, but uh, Tony Gilroy is not invested in Star Wars lore, and I. I think that's like a value neutral thing. It's like, obviously not a problem that he's not invested in Star Wars or, but what he does do. when, confronted with a character like Mon Mothma he goes to the Story Group and, Pablo Hidalgo and is like, so what's her backstory? Right? so what has been said about, this character and like, he gets whatever Canon has, been established, and then he sees a window to tell a story that he connects to that has some real world resonance and he just gives the whole thing life, right?

[00:26:49] Like there's so much ver militude in the idea that her planet, ChAndor whatever, that like, Living away from it and sort of, becoming, more progressive than the conservative values of her, her culture. Um, like that makes sense. But then the wrinkle that her daughter growing up completely separated from that culture would then, be curious about it and as an act of rebellion, , to their parents would sort of reach to the old ways, , because it, it's, going against the grain of their parents.

[00:27:23] Like that is very

[00:27:24] MICKEY: And doing so in the shadow of fascism, right? Like, kind of

[00:27:27] like, like that, that like, they're, they're, they're tied. There has to be a, a tie between why she's getting in that and, and the what's happening. And the other, I wanna say one of my probably favorite character moments in the writing of the show, that the character's not even in it, but when like the, the sister asks, oh, is it the husband?

[00:27:44] And she's like, no, actually, he's, he's not like an asshole on this issue. Like, he's a cad, he's a jerk. But he's

[00:27:49] actually like, he's not some

[00:27:51] sort of like progressive,

[00:27:52] like

[00:27:52] JOSH: yeah. Like he doesn't give a shit about this.

[00:27:54] MICKEY: there's a tiny moment. But I love that so much for some reason. Like that kinda like exploration of his character through like one line.

[00:28:00] JOSH: no. The, uh, the relationship between man and uh, Parn, I

[00:28:04] MICKEY: Mm-hmm. Fairing.

[00:28:06] JOSH: name is so, devastatingly real. and it's just wild. Like I've, if you had told me that I would be this riveted, by watching the tension that exists in like mon math's marriage from Return to the Jedi.

[00:28:20] Like, I'd have been like, what the fuck you talking about? Like, that doesn't make, I don't see how that could be be possible, but it's like, so, um, like the thing, I think it was in, uh, the last episode where knowing that her driver was listening, she sort of threw him under the bus and like used him, made it seem like her money problems were because of his gambling was like, I mean this show's so good.

[00:28:42] Like that's

[00:28:43] BRACEY: It's great. And that one line that Mickey was kind of re referring to, I feel like it even makes that moment even worse because you're like, He's, he like, he's hu like he's human. Well, I don't know what he is, but he's, he is, he is, uh, uh, he's a, uh, he's a person, uh, uh, that has some faults, but like all in all, it's effed up to do what she's doing.

[00:29:06] Like, but like, the circumstance, and I think we touched on this in our first, in the first cover, like the first podcast about, Andor is just like, there, there, the circumstances change, the value structure of what you're doing. Like it changes what is constitutes what constitutes bad good right, wrong gray.

[00:29:29] Like what, like all, all those.

[00:29:32] JOSH: Well, to that point, uh, the thing about, Perrin that's so fascinating again, Mickey, it takes on a different resonance in the shadow of fascism. , he doesn't want to, to be bothered. He doesn't want to go against the grain. Like he, he just wants to live his rich lifestyle and like, have fun with, these rich people and throw parties and like, whatever.

[00:29:51] And like, Fine. but in this context, when you're appeasing and going along with the horrors of the empire like it's not neutral. Like you may not, yourself, be like an evil dude, but your indifference or your unwillingness to sacrifice, the life you want and your comfort in the face of what's going on.

[00:30:12] Like that, that, that takes on a, a different moral val in this context.

[00:30:18] BRACEY: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:19] MICKEY: Yeah. It's, it's true. But it's like, and like Bracey say, like, like you said, Bracey, that was a heartbreaking scene in its own way. Even though what you're saying true is Josh is this guy's like, dude, you can't be doing, like, you're, you know,

[00:30:28] you gotta step up. But, and he is not, he, he's not good, but also he's human and they really kind of

[00:30:33] play with that, with, they seem, you're like, oh, poor fucker, man.

[00:30:35] Like man,

[00:30:38] BRACEY: But to me, I feel like that's why this show is relevant, because this is what we're living through. Like this is how we're framing right now, our political system. We frame people as like, you're on my side or you're, you're, you're, you're effed up. And there is like no in between. Like increasingly people are like going to these extremes and I feel like those moments show, like kind of reflect ourselves.

[00:31:02] Like it, it, it makes it to some point that we're like, no, it's not just like, it's not just, uh, oh, this is the right thing to do, or they're on the wrong side. It's like what they're doing is not necessarily the right way to do this or like what we're, but it doesn't make them pure evil and worthy of being thrown under, under the bus

[00:31:21] JOSH: I agree that it's more complicated and I agree that it is a tragedy, but I, I wouldn't go as far to say that like, the two extremes are morally equivalent. Like, that's sort of all contained in Luthen, which I find such a fascinating character.

[00:31:37] Like, you know, he knows on some level, like he's a response to, the hero, villain, cliche of like, we're not so dissimilar, you and I, you know, like that, like that sort of a thing. he's fully aware that he, he's doing some things that are,

[00:31:53] BRACEY: wrong.

[00:31:54] JOSH: wrong in a lot of contexts, right? Uh, but he has made a decision that in order to, be true to his values, he has to sacrifice. himself, he has to become the kind of person who would do things that he finds abhorrent. For the hope that what comes after him won't have to live like this. And that's why I find, um, his speech in that episode so, profound and just incredible. I mean, Stellan Skarsgård is just, he's perfect in this role. Like he's, he just

[00:32:27] BRACEY: the tops.

[00:32:28] He's the tops. And, and, and, and it's, it's, what's amazing is that speech in so many ways is so cliche, and yet it was just so well done. Like, you know, like, what have you done? What have you done for the revolution? It's like, what have you, what have you sacrificed? And it's like, I sacrificed everything.

[00:32:46] I sacrificed anyway. Like there's so many ways you could have approached that same monologue. And it was on all sides. From the writing to the performance, to the staging, to just e e, everything. It was just so pitch perfect.

[00:33:03] MICKEY: Yeah, because

[00:33:04] I also think like, you get that sense too, right? That like, he also was like, here's my face. You're, you're in now. You know? Like, basically like you belong

[00:33:11] to me because you know who I, you know, like, because you know that that's like the whole thing. Like they're gonna kill andor cuz they andor seen his face.

[00:33:16] Like it means like,

[00:33:18] Yeah.

[00:33:18] Like, and, and, and that's fuller. That, that's, it's the evidence, like what I'm saying, what I'm saying is I'm a bad guy, you know, like I'm, I will do bad things now or whatever. Like, I've sold my soul and just, you know, and that's kind of like proof to him, like, don't you, you are in this now too, and like , you know, you don't have a choice.

[00:33:35] Because I have just proven, you know, I've basically just shown to you that I will, you know, kill you or whatever.

[00:33:41] JOSH: no. Yeah. And there's a similar scene, um, I mean, it's not a similar scene, but, but, um, there's another instance of, you know, Luthen really being real about why he's doing what he's doing the second scene with Saw I think in the penultimate episode, the one right before the finale he had previously asked Saw to, to back up, this other faction's attack.

[00:34:03] this other rebel leader named Krieger and saw initially says No. And then all of a sudden he changes his mind and, and Luther knows that the Empire, has, has discovered Krieger's plan and is setting up an ambush.

[00:34:19] So while he has decided that he just has to sacrifice, Krieger in order, to maintain cover, cuz then they'll twig, to the fact that they must have a mole in their ranks. He decides to, to tell SA the truth. And there's a moment where, sas.

[00:34:32] Is understandably, pissed off. And he has to wonder, he even says to him like, would you have sacrificed me? And, you know, Luther is like, saw like, this is what we have to do. Like, you know this, you know this. And to Saw's credit, he does, he doesn't do the movie thing where then all of a sudden the alliance falls apart because he feels like he can't trust Luthen.

[00:34:51] And he says something like, for the greater good and Luthen says whatever you wanna call it, and saws like, let's call it war. And not only is that a phenomenally, disgustingly good line, but That exchange contains the contradiction inherent in all of this. Like, let's call it war.

[00:35:11] You are killing, murdering, sacrificing in the name of, goodness and peace. Like an inherently perverse act But in that exchange, that encapsulates the complexity and the messiness and the moral grayness what you have to do in order to do the right thing for the greater good.

[00:35:33] BRACEY: Yeah. And if JJ was filming that, it wouldn't have been on that conversation. It would've been on the war. It would've been when they got attacked and they would've, and they got slaughtered. And like, and I think that's like, you know, that that perspective, it kind of shows like what matters. E are these conversations, what matters is like these choices that are being made and when people are choosing to be vulnerable in these moments, where it Luthen was he, he, he was clearly on his edge of like, I don't know if what I've done is the right thing.

[00:36:06] And I now, I'm kind of giving, I'm giving it, I'm giving you the chance to tell me if I've gone too far.

[00:36:11] JOSH: Well, see that's really interesting because I think he, he does, he does think it's the right thing, but I think what he's doing in that moment is like, he's showing this is what it's like, these are the choices, and it sucks. I think it's sucks too. I hate this.

[00:36:24] Right. So what would you, you tell me, you tell me what the right thing is. . And you know, sa like, he's not a stupid guy. Like, he goes along with it. He was like, you're right. And I think it's very telling that that really awesome, dog fight where, Luthen ship is, caught in the tractor beam from that, that from that imperial ship, you know, which is like such a, a tense sequence and is so satisfying.

[00:36:48] And like, you know, Luthen he blows his, cover to escape, I don't think it's a coincidence that that happens right after he had that conversation with Saw because I think , he's pissed off that that's what he has to do, and he just wants to fight these bastards.

[00:37:03] I think he's letting loose. I think he wants to blow up some fucking spaceships in that scene. because I think the weight, the idea that that's what the fight has to be like, I have to make these decisions where I'm sacrificing 50 guys

[00:37:16] MICKEY: Yeah.

[00:37:17] JOSH: so that we can, win.

[00:37:18] MICKEY: can I also just say like, why, why, I mean, it's like, like, I mean, it's like the rogue ones like why do they look so good? Why does, like that space stuff that shows doing, like the ships look so good compared to like a lot of CGI space stuff. And again, it's like, I, I, that was, to me, that was probably one of my favorite parts of Rogue One was like those ships felt physical, like they just did the perfect job of, of space battles that I feel like

[00:37:40] that and May, and maybe that's why maybe some sort of, some of the same creative people, but I, I was super impressed with like how that all looked.

[00:37:46] JOSH: Well, yeah, so one of the things I think, um, so I know that they dig this on Rogue One, um, and I think you can see that it's not really there in, the other movies. I really think it's the lighting. They let the highlights, , blow out. if you look at actual footage of like the international space station or the space shuttle or something, what's in sunlight is super overexposed and what's not in light is very dark.

[00:38:10] And I think rather than, than exposing so that it's, you know, exactly. Perfect. , they try to recreate that, limited, range of exposure where like, in order for you to see this ship, the brights are like really bright.

[00:38:24] MICKEY: Right.

[00:38:25] BRACEY: They, they're aiming for realism and, and, and what I love about that is it's like they take that theme and they run it across every aspect of the show. Like the, the, the, the realism and the way they, I mean, maybe, maybe not, uh, a spaceship that has like white saber shooting out of the side of it, but, but like everything else feels like very, like how they handle that is very, uh, realistic.

[00:38:46] And as you were saying that, it's like, I don't, I, I'm not so interested in. This, uh, uh, this, uh, Jedi, potential Jedi connection to Luthen. But I am fascinated as to why he has so much, like, like he has some technology that it looks like that's not just a regular, you know, like not everybody's walking down the street with that.

[00:39:10] And I think I have a feeling that when we find out more about who he, if we find out more about who he is, it's only going to be to hate him more. We are going to hate this guy. Like he did not profiteer. I feel, I feel like we're gonna, he didn't profiteer off of, off of, uh, off Oh, like get, get all this stuff, uh, in a way that is just like, I just feel like they're gonna make his character more gray.

[00:39:37] I, that if, if.

[00:39:39] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, maybe he had something to do with like the mining that, destroyed, Cassian's planet or something, or something along those lines. Like, I don't know. But it's like, it could be something in the context of what they're setting up, because I don't think we're gonna find something that is brought outside from Star Wars lore.

[00:39:55] I think it's going to be something that they have, already, set up or, incorporated into, what they've constructed already. Like that's just my feeling. .

[00:40:05] Um, so yeah, so, Cassian, I think that's possibly the first time we have mentioned his name, who, who's, uh, the tit shoeler character of the show, which I think is fascinating.

[00:40:16] And, there was a from, I think an interview in, I think it was the Hollywood Reporter, I'll, I'll have to find it, but, Sean T. Collins, theseantcollins on Twitter. He asked, Diego Luna, this question. He says, one of the most unusual things about the show is that, especially in the early episodes, Cassian Andor is not particularly charismatic, we're used to drama centered on the most magnetic guy in the room, and then Diego.

[00:40:41] Luna says, you probably were in the room with him and never noticed. Kaine had to be that guy because this is a big show that wants to tell the story of people that big shows never cared about before. It's the only way to be honest about a revolution. Yes, there are leaders, but revolutions are not made by leaders.

[00:40:57] They're made by numbers, by conviction, by regular people thinking they can do something extraordinary. This is the story of one of those people that was never celebrated, oh, this person is going to bring change. This person is different. No, not really. The strength of community, that's what the show is about.

[00:41:13] You cannot fall into the trap of making the charismatic, funny guy who you know from the beginning is gonna find a way out. You have to think the opposite. You. You have to question why are we supporting him? I was always saying, let's avoid movie moments as much as we can.

[00:41:27] BRACEY: it's great.

[00:41:29] JOSH: I thought that was really fascinating. because it speaks to what we were saying in that first episode and what we were saying earlier that like, this show is not about the people leading a revolution. It's not about, top down revolution. It's about bottom up and it's about, community and solidarity and the choices that, that, people make and

[00:41:54] I was really affected, by probably The Prison Break episode. um, Kino Loy, played by, Andy Serkis in that speech he gives over the loud speaker where he's telling all the prisoners to rise up and giving them instructions.

[00:42:08] Like at one point he says something along the lines of, you know, if you see someone who needs. or is confused, help them. Like the only way we get out of this is if we help each other and we go together. And that's how we beat them. They're not expecting us to do this.

[00:42:24] Right. like the solidarity he was expressing in that, moment, the idea that, you know, he would take the time to say, if you see someone who needs help or is confused, stop and help them. was just so moving to me. and then nevermind, the heartbreak that, that like, it turns out he actually, he can't go cuz he can't swim.

[00:42:44] BRACEY: Chef's Kiss right there. It

[00:42:45] was beautiful

[00:42:46] MICKEY: And then Cassian can't help him because he's pushed by the tides of people, by the

[00:42:50] BRACEY: No time. He had no time to

[00:42:53] MICKEY: just was like, he would, he stopped. He was, and he just, he got pushed, you know, the, the, you know, whatever you wanna call it. Like Destiny just pushed him before he could go back and help him,

[00:43:00] unfortunately.

[00:43:02] JOSH: no totally. And actually, speaking to what, Diego Luna just said in that interview I quoted, you know, once again, like there are people online who are like, oh, well, we never actually see what happens to Andy Serkis he could show up. It's like he'll probably show up later, like he could show up later, blah, blah, blah.

[00:43:16] And in my mind I'm like, no, no, you're never gonna know whether he made it out or whether he died. And Cassian is never gonna know whether he made it out or whether he died, because that's the whole point of this show. It's. , as Diego Luna said, it's about all the people who were part of this revolution, who, who, who get overlooked, who were forgotten, who did heroic things, who, who.

[00:43:35] You're never gonna know about their sacrifice. You're never gonna know their names. And I think to have, I get the impulse, like when you see a character that you love so much and you really latch onto you wanna see more of them. but the brilliance of this show, and I think that, Tony Gilroy and Beau Willman and the other writers are smart enough to know the worst thing they could do is to give more.

[00:43:57] MICKEY: Yeah. Like, I don't think we're

[00:43:58] ever gonna find out what happened to the sister. Right. That that's

[00:44:01] done. like,

[00:44:02] JOSH: No.

[00:44:03] MICKEY: And I, and I'm, I'm,

[00:44:04] BRACEY: That's the reality

[00:44:05] MICKEY: yeah, no, it's right. Yeah.

[00:44:06] Exactly.

[00:44:07] BRACEY: aiming for,

[00:44:08] MICKEY: and now I'm terrified he's not gonna meet up with his friends that he let go at the end. Like, is that, is that the theme?

[00:44:12] Like those people are like, you know,

[00:44:14] BRACEY: think they're, I think they're the next band. I think we're gonna time jump and we're going to, like, they will have done stuff together and they may not all be there anymore, but, um, I feel like they took a very specific beat to like, show this is this, this is the, this is the remnants of what happened here and, and, and kind of to the, the point of, uh, uh, Diego Luna, how the whole thing, what I love about that, uh, uh, that quote was, uh, in our first podcast, uh, uh, one of us had mentioned that, uh, uh, that the, uh, the town itself was being treated like a character to some extent.

[00:44:56] Like, and, and, uh, and I feel like, uh, you got to see that group. Uh, growth, that group character growth in the first three episodes. In the next three episodes on the heist, on the next three episodes of the prison break. And then on the final three episodes, we return back to the original town and then also the, uh, the cherry on top of that, that group sh like the seeing those groups interact and, and, um, developing the, uh, uh, the groups as a character is we get to see the inside the empire and see how they are working as a group and see how that is comparing to these other things.

[00:45:36] And I

[00:45:36] feel like it's a real, it's a, it's character study on top of like characters how character dynamics, character dynamics study, and it's just, it's just great

[00:45:46] JOSH: Yeah, no solidarity inside the empire. It's all like bureaucratic infighting and, and, and back biting and, yeah, it's fucking, it's some bullshit.

[00:45:53] MICKEY: D and whatever different units, you know, saying, well, we, this is our purview and not our, you know. Yeah. Um, do I honestly, like something I found really interesting, um, speaking of kind of that, now bring, the empires supposed to come into the, uh, fair andex now and then kind of the prison too is like, I feel this is Star Wars, that it's most sci-fi in terms of like, especially if you kind of think of mount like maybe mid-century sci-fi vate style, like the idea of the dying cries of an alien species as a torture device.

[00:46:20] Like to me that's something like straight out of Vate or something that, that Star Wars as science fantasy, right. More than sci-fi never really actually did stuff like that. Or again, the design of the prison, you know, like

[00:46:31] that, that's like, to me that's like, kind of like real, I don't, not hard sci, I don't know what you kind of call that type, that style of like, I don't, you know, like vk um, and um, you know, the guy wrote like, you know, blade around, you know, like that style sci-fi.

[00:46:44] JOSH: Yeah. Uh, , Philip k Dick, I think it's more psychological.

[00:46:48] oh. Which I think is more like literary,

[00:46:50] MICKEY: Oh

[00:46:50] yeah. Yeah. That's a literary idea, right? That the torture alien cries are torture devices. A very literary

[00:46:57] thing to me. And they did the smart thing about, you don't hear it, you don't know what it

[00:47:00] is. And that's,

[00:47:01] JOSH: exactly. Um, uh, because it's an idea, right? Which, is sort of inherently more literary because it's something that you have to imagine, you know, versus something cinematic. Yeah. But like, it's like, it's like little things like that, like that, the show excels at, , that, you know, Star Wars is, is normally known for.

[00:47:19] , but this show ostensibly made by someone who has no investment in Star Wars or fantasy, like he does amazing. He al, he beats Star Wars at its own game. Like he makes the empire the most horrific like that, torture scene where you don't even hear what it is, but just the idea of what it is and the idea that that's what they would use this for is like so evil.

[00:47:46] It's, it's, it's more evil than, than like any scene of Emperor Palpatine in like any movie. No amount of gleeful, cackling and lightning from the fingers will ever approach the, horror of that idea.

[00:48:02] MICKEY: Yeah, course that wine, right, the children cries are especially, you know, like effective or, yeah,

[00:48:08] JOSH: no, and it is a very sci-fi idea. Like, it's so, it's so mundane, but like that's a sci-fi idea, which is, is really interesting. Uh, I mean, again, like you were saying, Mickey, it seems like, Tony Gilroy is really experimenting with genre. And I think I heard him on an interview say like, you know, I had no experience with sci-fi or fantasy, but he was like, I found it.

[00:48:29] It was actually kind of fun and freeing. Like, you can do things like he said, I learned whatever, whatever sci-fi writer has known for a hundred years, it's like, you can, you can do a lot with the freedom that it allows. And I think that, he did it, you know, masterfully, like something I was really struck by was just like, the detail of. Maarva's droid after she passes away. And Brasso is like, so, tender with the Droid, who in the Star Wars universe. it's like the treatment of droid is either like played for humor or it's shown to like, say something about a character.

[00:49:02] we have seen characters in Star Wars treat droids, like they're deserving of respect and like emotional consideration, but it's sort of superficial, right? It's like, it's like sort of the exception. Whereas in this show, when the droid, uh, beat to, he doesn't wanna leave Maarva's house and he asks him to stay with him for the night, and Brassa was like, One night,

[00:49:26] MICKEY: Yeah,

[00:49:26] JOSH: it's just like that kind of emotional depth from a droid in Star Wars is not something I I ever thought we would get from Star Wars. Like, I just, I don't know. I just never, I just never thought we'd get there.

[00:49:39] MICKEY: it, it, it is heartbreaking how heartbroken the beam O two is. It's like, oh,

[00:49:44] that suck, that poor little thing. I, I think maybe there's something may, maybe on purposely, I don't know, these, like the, the, the retroactive story, you know, again, where they're like, no droids in the bar and that was just a thing.

[00:49:54] And then you find, and then, then people say, oh, because what caused the biggest space for that? Killed, you know, billions. It was a droid army and that's why

[00:50:01] there is this hatred.

[00:50:02] JOSH: I mean, that's a thing.

[00:50:03] MICKEY: Yeah, totally rec, but, but then

[00:50:04] like taking that reccon is now, now it's canon or whatever, and you take it into this fair next world.

[00:50:08] You're like, well, this is the world that needs all, this is a planet that's about solid blue, blue collar solidarity. Right. You know, like they don't have

[00:50:14] time. You know, the aliens, the humans color, you know, all them and droids, they're all, they're, they're a community together. Cuz they have to be, cuz they're, you know, like, they understand this, this concept of solidarity on this planet, which is why it becomes maybe this hotbed, right.

[00:50:28] You know?

[00:50:29] JOSH: I think that that's exactly right. Um, uh, just as we, wrap up here,

[00:50:34] it came out that, Mar's hologram speech

[00:50:38] MICKEY: Oh, the, the F word. The fuck. Yes. Fuck

[00:50:42] JOSH: Yes, yes. she gives this amazing, sort of speech rallying cry at it ends with Fight the Empire. And apparently as originally scripted, she was supposed to say fuck the Empire.

[00:50:54] Um, and, Disney, wouldn't let them get away with that, which I understand. Um, uh, but I think it's really interesting, bra and I were talking about this the other day, I totally get the instinct. And I don't think it's even a wrong instinct. but I think fight the Empire is better than fuck the Empire in this context,

[00:51:15] BRACEY: it's

[00:51:15] a litmus test, man. I think this is a litmus test. Like this is like, like how far, how far are you? In what direction? Like

[00:51:23] JOSH: Well, so, so, but, there are two reasons. Uh, the practical one is that, fight the Empire is a call to action, like she, she is, she is trying to rally and instruct these people. And I think if she said Fuck the Empire, that's like more of an emotional kind of explosion and less like a harnessing of like, now let's go do this sort of thing.

[00:51:47] MICKEY: Compromise. Compromise would be fuck the empire up.

[00:51:51] JOSH: Okay.

[00:51:52] BRACEY: Fuck them up,

[00:51:53] MICKEY: Yeah, I do like, and again, in weird little roles and weird little acting, I, I, uh, whoever the head of the Imperial, you know, Garrison there, who's the guy there who, when freaks out that just, that freak out that he tips over the, the droid.

[00:52:08] That's

[00:52:08] JOSH: No. Yeah, because he was like, this is, this is bad.

[00:52:11] MICKEY: yeah. And, and it personally person him off. It makes you realize that he's not an opportun opportunist. He's not, he, he's a believer, right. , in it. And then you, you see that kind of, again, that evil or something, right? That he's like, he can't even abide by this free freedom of speech. Right? He can't abide that.

[00:52:27] so yeah, I, I, again, I thought that was a, a weird little, just like these, he, it, the show's just so perfect by making every little per like, character and person, like have this, like inner reality in that way.

[00:52:38] BRACEY: Oh, I, I did have one quick, quick question, uh, on your read on something, on the final episode. Um, uh, I can't remember the name of the guy, but he exchanged tax with, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm running blank With

[00:52:53] JOSH: Oh yeah. Right. uh, CIL and like his old, uh, uh, lieutenant or whatever,

[00:52:57] BRACEY: the, so the old lieutenant, there's a moment where he's kind of looking at Syril when the conversation's happening and at the very, the very last time you see him, he's like getting drunk on the steps or something like that, or he's just sitting

[00:53:11] how did you read that? How did you guys read that?

[00:53:16] JOSH: I read that as, you know, I don't think that that character is like, is like very, self-reflective. his beliefs are why he's doing what he's doing. And I think that, um, you know, this was a cluster fuck, and I think he's, he's getting drunk, I think he was like, well, that was a hell of a thing. Like, like, these are the guys who you can recruit to, to buy into the cause. because I don't think that they're really thinking too much about it as long as their, as their place is secure, versus Syril who's a true believer.

[00:53:52] I,

[00:53:52] don't know.

[00:53:52] That's my instinct.

[00:53:54] MICKEY: I think that la that, that whole last part of the episode in scene, like, to me that was two of the most arresting shots were the, um, radio guy who sells tickets, dying, and the way they lingered on him. And then, yeah,

[00:54:06] that shot of that guy. And I think it's like, maybe it's just like, look at the collateral damage of this, you know, like,

[00:54:13] JOSH: Yeah. I mean, really at the end of the day, I think it's like that, I think it's, look at the, the collateral damage. I don't know that there's anything specifically deep that we're meant to read into it, per se, but

[00:54:25] BRACEY: I, I wasn't thinking deep, but I do feel like this, uh, uh, the moment where he's looking when during Martha's scene and the fact that the empire didn't just hang out there like, like nobody else who was on the other side of that conflict just hung around there. Like they got out of that space. Like if you were, if that place wasn't home, you got out of there.

[00:54:46] And I thought there was something kind of interesting that that guy kind of was like, that is where he decided to. Collect himself. I think there is something about, I don't know, there's something about that I would not be surprised if we found out into the next season, uh, that he was actually part of the movement that actually did, Martha's speech actually did make one converter and that one converter, it's about numbers.

[00:55:13] It's about that thing that like, she actually touched somebody and it wasn't just speaking to her crowd, but she actually reached someone. And I I and that's what that, that,

[00:55:23] that that kind of read to

[00:55:24] me.

[00:55:25] MICKEY: Yeah. And because you can kinda

[00:55:26] see, like he, where he sat before, he wasn't a storm trooper. He wasn't even imperial. He was in security. And now

[00:55:32] he's seen twice. What happens when you try to grasp too tight on a people and what happens? And he maybe he's realized he's like this. Yeah. Like you, this idea of security, this idea of ultimate fascist security, it's just like, is not realistic and this is what it causes.

[00:55:47] And maybe, uh, he, maybe he's, he's having reckoning that's what's happened. Right. You know, and

[00:55:50] Yeah.

[00:55:51] JOSH: That's, I mean, that's a really interesting read.

[00:55:53] MICKEY: I wanna rewatch that and maybe maybe see somebody react like, cuz he's with Syril, but then he's not with Syril, right? Like they split, like something happens in that scene where he's like, my guy is now not my, you know, like he's gone and rescued the evil woman and this guy's hanging back. So yeah.

[00:56:07] Something happened there, you know, maybe,

[00:56:09] BRACEY: So it feels like something just really subtle, but also nicely profound if they do follow through with that character in some way.

[00:56:18] JOSH: no, that's entirely possible. Um, I would be very curious if that's a thread that they, uh, that they pick up. And I wouldn't put it past. Tony Gilroy and the creators of this show, because I think he said, he's completely invested in the inner lives and the reality of every one of these characters.

[00:56:34] Like that's the only way he knows how to write. so I think that, um, you may very well be onto something. Um, any, closing thoughts on season one of, Andor?

[00:56:42] BRACEY: Just, I am incredibly excited to see the second season, and I know 24 episodes feels like it's not if, if they're doing 12 again, I, I would assume just the, the, the

[00:56:55] story structure. But like, I mean, I would have, I would prefer. only 24 episodes of this than ninety seven, one hundred and twelve episodes of all the other stuff out there.

[00:57:10] Like I, you know, this is, I, I, I think it's important to have something to say and Tony Gilroy has something to say and he's using this medium and this franchise and this moment in time to say it, and he's taking his time to say it well, and I really do appreciate that. I really do.

[00:57:35] JOSH: Well said, Mickey. Closing thoughts on Andor.

[00:57:37] MICKEY: Yeah, I, I honestly definitely like, yeah, as we reached the end, the things I said in the beginning I think really proved true. I think they really stuck to this line of like, this is almost, they're using the empire to say what happens if the Nazis one. again. They, I think they dive deeper and deeper into the ideas of the lieberstein.

[00:57:52] I believe it was called like terraforming the world. Like yeah, I love those two aliens and the who their fish are now dead, you know, who actually helped them out. That was such a beautiful and great crack character design and everything that, that felt like, like I said, I think we talked about this back in, in the Bubba Fe, like, oh man, that was real, like Muppet eighties, Muppet, you know, doing like Lucas film stuff, you know, type of thing.

[00:58:13] Um, so I really enjoy that. They, they, they're following that thread, um, the char and like the, yeah, like, like you said, the interlay, the character stuff is making this, and I would say like, yeah, like 24. Great. I think I saw, he said they originally were thinking five seasons and now I am pissed. We're not getting that.

[00:58:28] Cuz there would've been like the same timeframe. Right? They start, they, they only have two years or whatever it is until that first one. So, you know, they would've gotten deeper into some of the things you. . Um, and so I think, I think we're, you know, we're gonna, it's gonna be remiss that maybe there's like deeper stuff we don't get, but they're still within what they're doing.

[00:58:44] They're doing it perfectly, you know, like, it, it might be better cuz you know, it's more focused in everything. Um, so, but it, it, you know, and you know, we are just talking about Star Wars in relation to Star Wars. We haven't gotten to the idea of like, this might be the best show on TV right now. I definitely think it, it might be , you know?

[00:59:01] Um, Yeah,

[00:59:02] And it's just great.

[00:59:04] JOSH: no. I think it very well, could be, uh, shout out to, Maya Chupkov who does the podcast, proud Stutter, who was a guest on this show, um, who, who's not a Star Wars fan. And in, uh, that interview I did with her, she said she was curious to check it out, and I suggested she start with, Andor, and, coincidentally, I saw, she tweeted a couple days ago, her top 10 TV shows of 2022, and number one was, Andor so I think, I think it worked.

[00:59:32] and, and I think that speaks to, what you just said, Mickey, I

[00:59:35] MICKEY: Yep. Plus or minus than Nathan for you, which is a whole different thing. I think this might be, yeah.

[00:59:40] JOSH: The Rehearsal or do you?

[00:59:41] MICKEY: the rehearsal. That's what I meant. Yeah.

[00:59:42] Yeah.

[00:59:43] JOSH: Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm halfway through that season, so no. Uh, so no spoilers please. That's an intense show, but, um, uh, yeah, I, I haven't been as excited and as invested and as energized in a, uh, a Star Wars, story in, a long time. And this is just, I mean, what a surprise and what a gift.

[01:00:04] I'm so thrilled and happy and, and kind of bewildered that the show exists and I'm really looking forward to season two. I'm also glad that, you know, they're just now shooting it, so we probably won't get it until 2024. It's the earliest cuz like this was an intense watch. Like I , it's like, it's like I can use the, the come down a little bit and sure, I'll watch, I'll watch Mando and see and, and have that and see what that's about, um,

[01:00:32] But, um, anyway, thanks guys for participating in the final episode of Trash Compactor for 2022. This has, this has been a, this has been a hell of a year, and um, and thank you to everybody who's been on the show and who's listened to the show. And, um, we be back in 23 with season two and, um, yeah, one way out guys. One way

[01:00:53] MICKEY: One way out.

[01:00:54] BRACEY: One way out

[01:00:58] JOSH: How do I stop this thing?