ACAFANS: The Rigorous Study of Star Wars

[00:00:00] JOSH: Welcome to Trash Compactor. I'm Josh, back after a long hiatus where we were honoring the strikes of the Writers Guild and the Screen Actors Guild and welcome to our first episode of season 3 in 2024. Today we're going to be talking about a new collection of essays about Star Wars by two self described Acafans, which is a term I learned from the introduction to the volume, that's defined as an academic who is also a fan of the subject they're writing about.

[00:00:27] JOSH: And while I'm not a credentialed academic, it's that critical, rigorous approach that I try to bring to Star Wars here at Trash Compactor. So, I was really interested in speaking with my guests that I'm thrilled to welcome today. The editors of this new Star Wars essay collection. Star Wars: Essays From a Galaxy Far, Far Away.

[00:00:46] JOSH: I'm pleased to welcome Emily Strand and Amy H. Sturgis. Welcome, guys.

[00:00:52] EMILY STRAND: Thanks so much for having us.

[00:00:53] AMY H. STURGIS: Yes, thank you.

[00:00:55] JOSH: So, the book is a collection of ten essays broken down into three [00:01:00] sections, which could more or less be described as being about, sort of, In universe subjects, and the second was sort of a collection of essays about the outside ideas and the ideologies that influence the text. And the third was sort of about the nature of the storytelling itself.

[00:01:19] JOSH: Does that sound accurate?

[00:01:22] EMILY STRAND: Yeah. Yeah. That, that nails

[00:01:24] JOSH: Now, oh, great. Um, Did you set out to find different essays that would cover subjects that broke down along those lines, or is it just sort of you solicited essays and then you figured out how to categorize them, how to break them down?

[00:01:41] AMY H. STURGIS: More of the latter, actually. Uh, we originally just wanted the best essays we could get that would appeal to both scholars and lay readers, fans who were interested. And so we Aimed for those that could move the conversation ahead in some way or another. And [00:02:00] then we decided we would find the connecting threads of the themes once we, once we had our essays lined up.

[00:02:09] JOSH: So, who do you imagine the audience is for this volume? I mean, I guess you just said it. It's, it's for, for academics and also, casual fans, I suppose. and I guess there is a Venn diagram of the two. I mean, I wouldn't consider myself an academic. Well, I'm not an academic. I'm not, credentialed.

[00:02:28] JOSH: Um, though it's, it's explorations like this that I find very, very fascinating. And like I said, I try to Choose topics and start conversations on this podcast that are a little more than just, you know, surface reactions to things

[00:02:43] EMILY STRAND: Yeah.

[00:02:44] EMILY STRAND: Substantive.

[00:02:45] JOSH: yeah, for whatever reason, you know, I think when you're a fan of something, especially for a long time, you start to get really, interested in what's going on under the hood and like exploring how it works and why you like it so much.

[00:02:59] JOSH: [00:03:00] Um, and so, I forget how I came across, your volume. But this is exactly the kind of thing that I love. And I devoured it. I thought it was, I thought it was fantastic.

[00:03:10] EMILY STRAND: Well, that is, I would say that you, in fact, are our target audience, you know, if everything you're saying is, is true, then, then, you know, we, because, I mean, obviously, academics can write for academics. That's great. I understand. That's a, that's a con, that's a kind of a, sometimes a self contained conversation.

[00:03:29] EMILY STRAND: And it's an important conversation. You know, and sometimes those conversations have other people who, who kind of, um, listen in, but don't necessarily participate. But we really wanted this book to be accessible to a fan such as yourself, who, like you said, is so, um, Has, has, who loves this property so much that they do want to see what's going on under the hood, and they get energy from those kinds of ideas, [00:04:00] and, um, it's, it's, it's not hard, it's not hard to write accessibly, um, and yet be writing it.

[00:04:09] EMILY STRAND: You know, uh, for an audience that can go either academic or non academic, you just have to make sure that those ideas come through and that the language doesn't get in the way of itself, um, the source material doesn't get in the way of itself, you know, um, I, I, one of the things I love about the book is that we have sources cited from You know, peer reviewed, um, academic collections on Star Wars.

[00:04:35] EMILY STRAND: We have other academic material that's totally non Star Wars that's also cited and undergirds many of the essays. But we also have middle reader Star Wars literature cited. Just, we have, like, cartoons. We have, you know, I cited episodes of the Clone Wars and the Bad Batch in my essay. And, and, you know, because I I think that all of that content is, is [00:05:00] worthy of the kind of scrutiny that, you know, that you said really jazzes you up and, and that, so that's the kind of, so, but we would also be happy if, um, Uh, professors who teach, you know, uh, say, um, you know, uh, fiction writing or, um, about invented languages or about, you know, that they would pick up an essay of this and assign it as, as required reading for a college course.

[00:05:27] EMILY STRAND: Like that would, or a graduate course, that would be a really exciting thing, you know, and, and we, we definitely had that in mind as well as we put the book together and edited the book. Um, Amy, anything to add to that?

[00:05:40] AMY H. STURGIS: Oh, I agree exactly with what you're saying. And, and as you said, academics can write for other academics. But one of the important things we wanted was for there to be a real multidisciplinary, transdisciplinary conversation here, which means also that academics aren't writing for the [00:06:00] five other academics in their little subfield.

[00:06:03] AMY H. STURGIS: You have, you know, theologians writing. In conversation with philosophers and historians and, and, uh, linguists. And so that also required a certain kind of accessibility of language so that you could move back and forth. You can't get caught up in, in little jargon that only a few people use. But also, Going back to the idea of the classroom, I've had the very good fortune of being able to teach courses devoted to Star Wars at both the undergraduate and graduate level.

[00:06:31] AMY H. STURGIS: And so I was also thinking in the back of my mind the entire time, my sort of wish list for a book like this that could capture Students who are very interested fans of Star Wars, but also students who are new to Star Wars and we're wanting a kind of snapshot of how deep and broad discussions about Star Wars could be.

[00:06:54] AMY H. STURGIS: And so look over here, here's what these kinds of, of, uh, uh. You know, the [00:07:00] people who are trained with these certain tools. Here are questions they ask about Star Wars. And over here, people who are looking at Star Wars through these lenses. These are some of the things they're asking. But it's all a big conversation that, hopefully, will open the doors for other people to want to, uh, engage with these questions that are being raised in these topics.

[00:07:21] AMY H. STURGIS: And so, the goal there, being as open and accessible and welcoming as possible in the language and in the topics. That was the goal.

[00:07:30] JOSH: No, completely, and I think a very good illustration of that is the very first essay, the one about the um, Actually, this is embarrassing. Is it, is it "Twy"leks or "Twee"leks? I've never actually said it out loud. I've only really read it.

[00:07:42] EMILY STRAND: I, I say Twi'leks, that's what I do, and I'm totally basing that on the one scene of The Mandalorian, I think it was season one, The Prisoner, where, um, the guy, I can't remember his character's name, uh, the guy played by the [00:08:00] comedian, I don't know, anyway, there's a lot of comedians in The Mandalorian, he calls her a crazy Twi, so that has

[00:08:07] JOSH: Okay, good point.

[00:08:08] EMILY STRAND: shaped my, but I've heard it both ways, I've heard it both

[00:08:11] JOSH: Yeah, well, so let's go with Twi'lek. I'll defer to your, uh, to your academic, expertise. but no, what you were saying, Amy, I think is a really good illustration of how, um, Star Wars can be used as sort of an introduction to, broader topics with, uh, the Twi'lek essay.

[00:08:27] JOSH: That, I found super fascinating, , because, you know, it had never occurred to me to look at it that way, but the evolution of the depiction of this fictional species in Star Wars really is sort of in microcosm the evolution of the, depiction of women in media and the roles that you see them in and the roles that they're allowed to play.

[00:08:49] JOSH: and I thought that that was really fascinating. So yeah, so, so I totally see how that can be used in an academic setting, for someone who's maybe not interested in Star Wars.[00:09:00] But yet it's something that Star Wars, using the example of Star Wars, can communicate these ideas very, succinctly and very, well. Um, I have so many questions from what you guys just said, but, um, I was going to ask you, what do you think is the value of applying academic rigor to a pop culture franchise like Star Wars and, um, how do you respond to people that maybe see what you're doing or hear what you're doing and think it's a little, you know, maybe lightweight or who think it's just entertainment and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[00:09:36] JOSH: how do you respond to something like that?

[00:09:39] EMILY STRAND: yeah, that's a good question. I, you know, I'm not positive that people who hold that, that idea, uh, that notion really want to be responded to. So a lot of times I just kind of go find someone else to talk to, but, um, but, but I, I, you know, fandom has become [00:10:00] such a phenomenon for people. I think everybody's got some kind of fandom, you know, whether it's Star Wars or Star Trek or Harry Potter or something else.

[00:10:12] EMILY STRAND: Um, you know, I, I, so we just had Galaxy Con in, in, I live in Columbus, Ohio. We just, we just had Galaxy Con in early December and, um, it was our second Galaxy Con. And it was, there's so many more people there than. Last year, which was our first year, um, which I mean, I guess is natural, but I just think that the idea of being a fan of something and kind of a hardcore, you know, um, fan where you get, you go all the way in, you know, you've got the costume and you've got the, the tote bag and the, the backpack and the, you know, and you want to immerse in that world with other people who also want to immerse in that world.

[00:10:50] EMILY STRAND: I think it's, it's such a growing phenomenon that when you, Leverage. It's a tool that teachers can leverage. to teach a particular topic. So [00:11:00] like, when my son was learning to swim, which was a, uh, bit of a struggle for him, um, he was just one of those kids who just really struggled with, with swimming. Um, he, he had the most success with a teacher who figured out to make everything a basketball metaphor.

[00:11:16] EMILY STRAND: You know, for him. So when, so when you're doing this, you're, you're, you're grabbing the ball and you're pulling it to you and you're, you know, and all of a sudden he was swimming because he, he got that, she got that point of leverage and she helped him transfer. The knowledge and the understanding and the experience that he had to a whole new set of concepts.

[00:11:36] EMILY STRAND: And I think when teachers can do that, the more teachers do that, can find that point of leverage with their students, um, and, and, and do that, um, then I think that the more success they'll have. Now, I mean, These courses that Amy teaches, and I have taken some of Amy's courses, and they are absolutely wonderful.

[00:11:55] EMILY STRAND: Um, you know, the wonderful thing is that she has a room full of people [00:12:00] who have, you know, willingly signed up for a course on this topic. So all of these other, the different, you know, really serious themes, um, oh my gosh, you know, uh, Tyranny and democracy, you know, um, these themes that we see, especially in the prequels that are just so how a democracy becomes a tyranny, um, you know, it's just so important today and to be able to use this light thing.

[00:12:27] EMILY STRAND: You know, to help students understand and to recognize, you know, when it starts happening in their own society, you know, because they learn to recognize it from Star Wars. Um, I mean, how else are we going to learn to recognize it? You know, I, so I don't think that's light at all. Um, so maybe if I, if I cared to give a response to those people, that would be my, my long winded response.

[00:12:49] EMILY STRAND: Amy, I'm sure Amy has a much shorter one, a much more graceful. Succinct.

[00:12:57] AMY H. STURGIS: Not shorter, not more graceful. [00:13:00] What you said was beautiful. But yes, the stories we tell ourselves matter. And when stories are popular, that doesn't translate as the stories are bad. In fact, they're feeding something in us We, we want, right? And some of the same people who would claim, Oh, this is low culture.

[00:13:19] AMY H. STURGIS: Forget that Charles Dickens or even Shakespeare were considered to be, uh, you know, the lowest common denominator of popular culture at one time or another. But if we look at the building blocks of what the stories that that we tell ourselves and keep coming back to, that's really important in a, in a multi generational kind of way here.

[00:13:40] AMY H. STURGIS: And a global kind of way, a storytelling franchise like Star Wars. There's, there's something there, right? That, that, uh, is answering questions or, or giving us tools that we, that we need. And again, all it takes is just a little bit of, of research to see, as, [00:14:00] as Emily was already talking about, uh, George Lucas at the beginning saying, You know, oh, let's, how, how, why do democracies vote in tyrants?

[00:14:10] AMY H. STURGIS: Um, that's, that's, let's think about Rome. Let's think about, you know, Napoleonic Europe. Let's think about Hitler. Uh, he's, he's using history in a particular kind of way. And those who came after Lucas also building on history in a particular kind of way. I'm, my field is intellectual history. The history of ideas and it occurred to me quite early on in my career that science fiction.

[00:14:36] AMY H. STURGIS: You know, being, being the genre in which the ideas are the heroes is a great way to look at the ideas that matter to people and how they're being transmitted and the questions that are being asked and the, the pushes that are being made by those storytellers. In the direction of what they hope will be a better world.

[00:14:56] AMY H. STURGIS: Uh, but also the anxieties of the time and the [00:15:00] concerns. And go to, to uh, Ah, Ahsoka. And you have characters saying it keeps happening over and over and over again. Right? History keeps repeating. But other, other large questions we keep returning to free will or destiny, right? Um, questions of, of how different cultures, uh, East and West have been talking about, uh, issues of the individual and the community and, and these are big ideas.

[00:15:30] AMY H. STURGIS: And just because they're told in stories. that grandparents share with grandchildren and, you know, uh, people who are dating each other say, if, if you want to, if you want to spend time with me, you've got to know I love these stories, right? I hear over and over again from students who take my classes, I ask, why are you here?

[00:15:49] AMY H. STURGIS: And so many of them say my dad loves this, or my girlfriend loves this, or everybody on the hall is watching this and I want to understand. They're trying to, to build bridges with [00:16:00] people who matter to them. If they're not already fans, they know people who are. Why does that matter to people? Those are stories that are important.

[00:16:08] AMY H. STURGIS: The stories we tell matter. And that's how I would answer that kind of question.

[00:16:13] JOSH: No, I think both of you are exactly right. And, um, I just want to clarify that question was not something that I think is just sort of a, straw man that I imagined, or maybe I'm giving voice to an insecurity that I have about, why I spend so much time thinking At any given moment in the day, if you ask me what I'm thinking about, the odds are not low that it's It's something Star Wars related,

[00:16:38] EMILY STRAND: Wars. I'm so glad. I mean, I do feel that way as well. I saw somebody, somebody who's big in Star Wars as a Star Wars commentator, Brian, uh, I can't remember his last name now, I'm sorry, but he, he tweeted something a few years ago that was like, I have to constantly remember that most people [00:17:00] don't think about Star Wars for most of the day. You know,

[00:17:03] JOSH: right, that in and of itself, I think makes it a worthy subject for academic study. If it's this thing that is preoccupying so many people, let's understand what it's doing and and how it works,

[00:17:14] EMILY STRAND: And what are the shared values of those people? You know, and what are the not shared values of those people? You know, where it's to me, it's it's fascinating to see, um, to be so. I'm a member of the Rebel Legion in the five of first and it's amazing to me to see. The points of disparity among us, you know, where it's like it's, it's just, it's, we have a big group chat and for our local squad for the 501st and it's, it's just funny how, you know, some people can just lob a bomb into everybody's, but everybody's kind of equally up in arms about it.

[00:17:51] EMILY STRAND: So the level of our passion is, is the same, but we feel different ways about, you know, and or, or charge our banks or, Or [00:18:00] something else, you know, so so it's it is interesting. It's you know, and there's as much I feel like I don't know Proportionately, how much, you know, but there's a lot of sociological work, anthropological work that's being done on fandoms and how, you know, how these fandoms operate and what is the mindset, what, what does cause people to, to be, become very preoccupied with these things.

[00:18:23] EMILY STRAND: And, um, so it's, it's just fascinating and, and like, so, you know, I, I, um. I understand that, you know, other people may have other interests and that's fine too, but I think you should be a fan of what it is that you're devoting your academic career to. Whether it's, it's, uh, Star Wars, uh, or, or the Civil War, or, you know, medieval, you know, England, or, you know, you should probably be a fan and be so passionate that somebody, somebody would, would call you out as a fan of that thing.

[00:18:54] EMILY STRAND: I think otherwise your work may be a little bit boring, maybe a little [00:19:00] bit dishonest.

[00:19:01] JOSH: Well, that's very interesting because that answers another question. Um, that I had again, not a view that I hold personally necessarily, but I was just curious to get your take on it. I was going to ask you, do you think being a fan of what you're studying is a is generally a positive thing?

[00:19:15] JOSH: Or do you think there's something to be said for a kind of academic detachment that a non fan would bring to an analysis of Star Wars? Um, and I think you just answered it. Hmm.

[00:19:25] EMILY STRAND: over to Amy, but I will also say, I mean, I'm, I'm a religious studies scholar and, and I, I teach comparative religions, um, and I teach nursing students and, and sometimes some of them are like, I'm also a practicing Catholic, so, so some of them will come in the classroom and be like, well, how can you teach me this if you're a practicing Catholic?

[00:19:45] EMILY STRAND: You're, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna make it seem like the Catholic Church is the best. And I say, no, I, you know, I think if you're, if you don't think your own religion is the best religion, then you should probably get a different religion. Um, but the, the, [00:20:00] My ability to teach another religion, you know, stems from my own passion for mine because then I can apply that understanding and have some empathy for somebody else who is equally passionate about their religion, which only makes me want to, um, respect that passion because I share it, you know.

[00:20:17] EMILY STRAND: So it's not about sharing the beliefs, it's about sharing the passion, um, and the devotion and, and the cultural kind of immersion in it. Um, so that I can understand, but, but I'll, I'll turn it over to Amy for more on that.

[00:20:30] AMY H. STURGIS: That's that's a great point. And I came up through fandom, um, added to an into academia at a time when fandom studies was being born when people like Henry Jenkins and Camille Bacon Smith and others were looking at The same things I was reading, fan fiction, looking at fan art, and saying there's something here, right?

[00:20:55] AMY H. STURGIS: That people are, are making meaning, and they are taking a shared [00:21:00] vocabulary, and they are speaking to each other. And that has, as Emily's already pointed out, fandom studies has, has taken on its own, uh, life as, uh, a form of media studies. It's very, very important. But it took fans. who were calling themselves in the late 80s and early 90s "acafans", or "acafen", uh, to recognize that there was something there worth studying at all.

[00:21:25] AMY H. STURGIS: And I think fans are close enough to the ground to say, Hey, this actually has meaning. Um, but But also, being a fan of something is, is not the same thing as being uncritical of something. And I think all of us, all three of us know, you get a group of fans together where, you know, there's nitpicking, there's criticism, there's debate going on.

[00:21:50] AMY H. STURGIS: Uh, but, but, on the same, you know, uh, uh, wavelength here, you, show me a Shakespeare scholar who thinks Shakespeare is, eh. Meh, [00:22:00] right? No one goes into, to studying Shakespeare who's uninterested in Shakespeare. And again, it's, it's what Emily was talking about, that sort of motivating force. You have to have a passion there to recognize its value as a subject of study. But that doesn't mean, in fact, quite the opposite, that it's not worth Criticism and careful, you know, uh, analysis. Um, but, but the, the starting point, this, this is important enough to be worth looking at and, and it, it's not just star Wars. I mean, science fiction studies. Uh, science fiction as genre and genre as literature, big L you know, that kind of thing. It's, it's all part and part of the same kind of part and parcel, I mean, of the same kind of, of debate, and a lot of that I think is, is a kind of gatekeeping and it's not something that would be asked of people studying other things. So I think, [00:23:00] you know, a little context helps, but I'm, I'm completely on the same page as, as Emily.

[00:23:05] AMY H. STURGIS: I think it's a, it's a, a benefit. It's, it's a feature, not a bug. If, if you're, you know, if you tied to and connected to what you're studying.

[00:23:17] EMILY STRAND: I will bring up Amy Richau as an example of, of somebody who's a fan, you know, I mean, she writes nonfiction books for Star Wars, right? So she, she, and she wrote the essay on the Twi'leks. And I have to say, her knowledge of Star Wars is phenomenal. I mean, she has an She hasn't missed anything.

[00:23:36] EMILY STRAND: You know, she's encyclopedic. I mean, she helps write the encyclopedias, so it's, it should not be a surprise. But that was such a strength for her, writing that essay. I felt a little bad for her at a couple points, because it's like, she could not possibly include every instance of, of Twi'leks that come into Star Wars, because that would be the entire book.

[00:23:56] EMILY STRAND: But, but because she Is a fan and she'll be the first to [00:24:00] say that I'm sure, um, she has such power of observation on the franchise and I think that the fans tend to have tend to do the closest observations, um, of of the. And then they come out with, you know, this, this, this, something that they noticed, you know, and then that becomes, you know, a source of, of inquiry for them.

[00:24:25] EMILY STRAND: And so I, I always want to encourage fans because it's like a superpower. Being, being a super fan is like a superpower because you, you have, you can observe so closely, more closely than other people really have the tolerance for.

[00:24:39] JOSH: No, I think you're exactly right and you just made me realize something that, you know, a fan knows the landscape. They know, what to pick out, what to, what to analyze, what the significance is, , you know, which, would lend itself to that kind of more rigorous study or examination that, a non fan or a civilian would not [00:25:00] necessarily see, the interesting subjects, the fodder for that kind of analysis beyond what's on the surface.

[00:25:09] EMILY STRAND: Yeah, I mean, detachment is detachment. You know, I mean, it can be helpful. It can be helpful, especially when you're walking into a new situation to come with an outsider's perspective on something. But, but detachment is also detached. So, you know, um, right, it keeps, it keeps everything at arm's length. And I love immersion.

[00:25:28] EMILY STRAND: I love the perspective of someone who's, who's become just immersed in something.

[00:25:34] JOSH: So, speaking of comparative religions, and I only mean that half half jokingly, Um, I know you both also wrote a volume of Star Trek. essays. which, uh, full disclosure, I haven't, um, had an opportunity to delve into the Star Trek volume, but I'm wondering, now having edited a volume of essays on Star Trek and a volume of essays on Star Wars, if you [00:26:00] have noticed any differences in You know, the ideas that the two franchises are preoccupied with or, ways that they treat certain subjects differently or similarly?

[00:26:14] AMY H. STURGIS: I'll, I'll dive in here first. Um, and full disclosure, I am an original fan of Star Wars. And I talked my parents into taking my tiny little self to Star Wars six times. Because they knew that I loved everything about space. And they knew I loved everything about space. Because I was already watching reruns of Star Trek, the original series.

[00:26:37] AMY H. STURGIS: And the original run of Star Trek, the animated series. And was a full fledged Star Trek fan, all right? So, by the time I'm in kindergarten wearing Leia buns in my hair, I have Star Trek and Star Wars in my life. But as

[00:26:54] JOSH: Oh, I like you, Amy. Ha,

[00:26:56] AMY H. STURGIS: Thank you! I love you too! [00:27:00] And so, I have always seen continuity there, and I think the books here just connect that.

[00:27:06] AMY H. STURGIS: Um, and The carryover, I would point out, we have two wonderful essayists who also have carryover essays that speak to each other in the two volumes, um, specifically, uh, Dr. Andrew Higgins, who is, uh, studies, uh, invented languages. And he does a comparison and a contrast with, uh, an essay in each book about how Star Trek and Star Wars invented languages.

[00:27:35] AMY H. STURGIS: And there are significant differences there in that Star Trek was looking at languages as foreign languages, whereas Star Wars was looking at languages more as sound design. And so they kind of evolved differently. But we also were very fortunate to have, uh, amazing essays from John Jackson Miller, who has written He's a terrific scholar, but [00:28:00] he's also a brilliant, uh, author of, uh, original fiction, uh, in both universes.

[00:28:08] AMY H. STURGIS: And he's written in Star Trek and Star Wars. In earlier times and in current canon times, and he's thinking about what canonicity means and what the relationships have been between the films and series and the novels and comics and other stuff. Um, tie in materials and, and he sees continuity and contrast there as well.

[00:28:32] AMY H. STURGIS: But I think it's, it's interesting when, when you bring a sort of scholarly lens into it, particularly from the kinds of like intellectual history things that I do. Seeing the way people are relating to these, these, um, storytelling franchises and how fandom has, has evolved in each of them. And it did evolve differently, but they also evolved in tandem [00:29:00] enough that you can see, um, the multimedia.

[00:29:03] AMY H. STURGIS: Uh, a fandom, whether that's writing letters to get a show back or co creating some of these invented languages that fans were creating in fanzines and using fan art to back those up, fan film, uh, and finding out that actually what evolved as the official stuff was coming out of conversations between fans and create, official creators, fan creators and official creators. Um, but also the, the ideas of time and history with, with Star Trek really having a different view of history than Star Wars, Star Wars being the cyclical one and, and Star Trek being, being more linear one, but also our relationship to the time in both of these, because Star Trek is our future and history. Star Wars is a long time ago in a [00:30:00] galaxy far, far away. We are the future that Star Wars was dreaming of, right? And that gives us sort of different relationships to those two stories. And I think that also comes through in the scholarship and thinking about what we're being asked to, um, to, to analyze and think about, and what, and how to employ hope.

[00:30:22] AMY H. STURGIS: And how to employ, um, role models and how to think about what the stories are encouraging us to do and what kind of mirrors are being held up, um, to us and to our potentials. Uh, but I tend to see, that's a very long winded, I'm sorry, way of saying I see a lot more continuity there than, than disruption between the two.

[00:30:44] AMY H. STURGIS: And it clearly with our, our essays. Uh, and particularly those carryover essays, um, the, the scholars are as well, um, seeing points of, of connection there, I think, but Emily has probably has lots of other brilliant [00:31:00] things or different, different things to say there.

[00:31:02] EMILY STRAND: Well, the only thing I would add, and all of that is, yeah, right on the money, and by the way, Josh, I am a new fan to both of these franchises, so Star Trek I watched as a kid, you know, in syndication, you know, after school, or late at night, or whatever, you know, and I enjoyed it a lot, but I never was, never could really consider myself a fan of it, um, but, um, I became a fan of both of these franchises, um, I, I don't know.

[00:31:32] EMILY STRAND: I, you know, I'm not even sure what inspired me, but I just wanted to kind of get into it. And Amy has been my guide for all of it. So she is a wonderful guide for all these reasons. And I, I agree having taken graduate courses on both Star Wars and Star Trek with Amy. Um, you know, she, she really does. She, she helped, she really helped to paint that picture of the subtle, sometimes, you know, it's surface level, you know, a lot of people kind of, the layperson doesn't always know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek, right, you know, and they'll [00:32:00] often say, Oh, you're in that Star Trek costume thing, you know, and I'm like, well, not yet, but I do the Star Wars one, um, but, you know, but one of the things that I would add, so Amy, Amy's explanation is just solid gold there, but, um, Yeah.

[00:32:13] EMILY STRAND: Yeah. Because they do have these, these kind of fundamental differences in many ways, um, but, but also these points of continuity that, um, that drive them both. Um, one that I've noticed is, is the approach to technology, um, is almost more taken for granted in Star Trek. And, and maybe less examined in Star Trek.

[00:32:38] EMILY STRAND: I mean, there's always going to be the individual Episodes, you know, or arcs that that kind of deal with that, but but in Star Wars, it's really a fundamental dilemma of how you employ technology while retaining your humanity, you know, or or whatever your species is, you know, um, [00:33:00] uh, You know, retaining that humanness that, you know, um, that puts humanity first, you know, Um, so it's a constant wrestling in Star Wars with because, because some people do, you know, use technology and use it.

[00:33:17] EMILY STRAND: Well, you know, um, the lightsaber is a technology, you know, and so, so how do we use these things? Um, the Mandalorian technology, for instance, you know, we see how it could be used very well for good, or it could be used for evil. And so, you know, even the character of Sabine Wren is a portrait of that, you know.

[00:33:40] EMILY STRAND: So, throughout both Rebels and in Ahsoka. Um, so I would say that's another one that I would love. You know, that would be a fun study, you know, to take a look at, at the expression of, you know, and the, the anxieties around the use of technology in Star Wars and, and go looking for those in Star [00:34:00] Trek and kind of compare what's found, you know, to those two things.

[00:34:04] EMILY STRAND: That would be, see, see how these things happen. Josh, do you see how these things happen? You dream up these things and then all of a sudden you're writing a paper.

[00:34:10] AMY H. STURGIS: Next book. Next book.

[00:34:13] JOSH: Well, no, I think you're right. and kind of that, tension between technology and I don't know what you want to call it. the transcendent humanity, I think

[00:34:24] EMILY STRAND: Yeah.

[00:34:25] JOSH: is how you termed it in your essay is kind of Central to Star Wars. It's, it's one of the central kind of animating ideas at the core of it, whereas Star Trek I think is more, you know, look how great our tools are at this, at this point in the future and look at what they allow us to be and what they allow us to do.

[00:34:51] JOSH: Um, uh, there is, uh, the off episode Like Amy in the original series, there's, uh, the ultimate computer with, the M5 unit and, you know, [00:35:00] whether or not computers are going to replace Starship crews, which I've been thinking about a lot recently with all of the developments in, AI and stuff.

[00:35:10] JOSH: Um, so these are definitely ideas that are really alive and vital, right now and know, Emily you What you just brought up. I have to say my favorite essay was your essay about Arthur Lipsett film 21-87.

[00:35:30] EMILY STRAND: Thanks.

[00:35:30] JOSH: and I enjoyed all of the essays. Um, the essay on the Twi'leks that we were talking about, uh, the essay on the Knights of the Old Republic,

[00:35:37] JOSH: video, uh, video game, which is a game I've never actually played.

[00:35:39] JOSH: but that essay made me realize, um, that it might, be an essential, thing to experience from my understanding of the force and the Jedi sif, binary. The, the essay on, the approach to invented languages I thought was super fascinating how they repurposed languages of indigenous cultures [00:36:00] to kind of, make sort of a hodgepodge for For various, creatures and this sort of, uh, the essay in your, uh, volume made me realize how problematic that is, and, I thought it was a good illustration, and again, a contrast with Star Trek, like you were just saying, and, uh, Because Star Wars, while there are a lot of ideas that are animating the whole thing under the hood, it's also, at least initially, was designed very much as a cinematic experience, so the idea that the sound of the language was the most important thing rather than, you know, the coherence or the, the internal consistency of it, um, rang very true.

[00:36:42] JOSH: But the essay on, on Arthur Lipsettt's 21-87 and how it was sort of central to Star Wars. Really, it was like I was struck by lightning. Because it like really it made so many things fall into place. you know, how, Central to Star Wars is that fight [00:37:00] against dehumanization and, human versus machine and the idea of humans as transcendent beings connected through a metaphysical force.

[00:37:09] JOSH: All of that is in that ten minute short film from 1963 that George Lucas saw. And you drew the parallel between, or you drew a line from, that to the Andor series and how those themes are really front and center in, you know, in almost explicit ways, I think more so than, Many other Star Wars, shows and films.

[00:37:34] JOSH: it was just really, a really clarifying read. not quite often that, you encounter a new unifying theory of something you think you're so familiar with. So, so I was just really, I can't say it enough times. It really had a large impact on me, uh, your essay, and I guess, and I guess if there's a question in this, it, it is, um, What inspired you to write about 21-87 [00:38:00] and Arthur Lipsett?

[00:38:02] EMILY STRAND: Yeah. Um, in terms of discovering Arthur Lipsett and his importance to Star Wars, because, you know, everybody always talks about Joseph Campbell and even Tolkien and the influence of Tolkien and Joseph Campbell, especially Joseph Campbell on George Lucas. But I felt like Lipsett was lost. You know, he got lost in the shuffle, and he may have been just as influential or more influential to Lucas.

[00:38:33] EMILY STRAND: Um, I love the show Force Material, and I believe that they had a

[00:38:39] JOSH: those guys.

[00:38:40] EMILY STRAND: Yeah, yeah, I believe they had a discussion several years ago. Uh, and they mentioned Arthur Lipsett and they mentioned 21-87 and I know that there was a blog, uh, sort of a blog post on their site that went with it that I did. I do cite in the essay.

[00:38:58] EMILY STRAND: Um, and then I also [00:39:00] ran across a little section on the influence of 21-87 on Lucas in Chris Taylor's book, How Star Wars Conquered the Universe. So I know those two things were there, but I have to say, you know, I think as I get older, I really gravitate to these hidden figures of history. Um, and I, I, I sort of want, I don't want people to forget about them, especially when they contributed something that's just so essential to things that we, you know, we, we understand freely or we take for granted now, you know, and, and I, I sensed, I sensed that with Arthur Lipsett and I, I kind of, hey, he had, he was such an interesting figure, just, you know, he obviously struggled with mental illness, you know, um, He, he used, you know, drugs, uh, both prescription and, and recreationally, um, and, and all these things.

[00:39:54] EMILY STRAND: But he also, he just had a, he had a tragic story, you know, his, um, his [00:40:00] family, you know, it, it came from a Jewish family, but it, you know, in, in those decades after the Second World War. I mean, it's very difficult to continue, for many people to continue to be Jewish or religious at all in, in light of what happened, you know, in Europe during the Second World War.

[00:40:18] EMILY STRAND: And, and so, but, but we lose something when we abandon all that, you know, we lose something. And to me, Arthur Lipsett is an emblem of what can be lost because the man himself was kind of like, I don't want to say he was lost in life because he, he was, he was very creative figure who, who had, you know, had a good deal of success, but he seems like he was just always searching for something that he just couldn't find, or he could just couldn't make the connection.

[00:40:45] EMILY STRAND: And again, maybe I'm reading in, maybe I'm reading in, but, um, uh, Amelia does, um, Biography of him was so good and it was very shaping to my thought on him and she, she was kind enough not only to share with me her self published biography [00:41:00] of him for nothing, I just inquired with her. I said, how can I buy this biography?

[00:41:05] EMILY STRAND: It's self published. And she said, here, I'll send it to you. Here you go. She's very kind. But then she also read my paper and, um,

[00:41:16] EMILY STRAND: So I hope I'm not speaking out of turn from the impression that I got from, from her work and from the other works that I read about him. But, but he, he was somebody who needed transcendence, who needed transcendent connection with other people. And, and he ultimately, You know, only got it in fits and spurts and and, you know, he was dead by his own hand by the time he was 50 and, um, to me, that's just so tragic, especially given that his film is the place we first.

[00:41:46] EMILY STRAND: hear mention of a force, you know, a force that connects everybody. You know, I, I can't remember the exact, um, words that he says nature or something, appreciation of nature or, you know, some transcendent [00:42:00] connection. And George Lucas. You know, you snap that up and, and, and, you know, as is as is our right when we encounter wonderful art, we want to take it and use it as inspiration for our own.

[00:42:11] EMILY STRAND: And, and so, um, that's a lot of word vomit. But basically, I, I just felt such a strong sense of empathy for him. Lipsett as an individual, especially, and a sense of gratitude that he put it that way and left it out, you know, for Lucas to find and, and, um, so, so I just, I, I just love everything about discovering him and his influence and I, I just, I feel like I, I just wanted to be a promoter of him and his ideas and his, um, so that more people, you know, could understand.

[00:42:46] EMILY STRAND: Yeah, Joseph Campbell. Sure. Tolkien. All right. Arthur Lipsett as well. Arthur Lipsett is, is one of the reasons that we're all here and one of the reasons that, that George Lucas created this thing that we love and connect with. Um. [00:43:00] Yeah, and as a religious person myself, I just, I feel like there's a lot of good, you don't have to be religious, you don't have to subscribe to a church or belong to whatever, but, but making that transcendent connection with others in a, in an intentional way can do such good in our world.

[00:43:14] EMILY STRAND: And, and, um, and I think that's, that's something I can just kind of get behind with a passion that will, will drive me for many years, I think.

[00:43:25] JOSH: No, completely, and, that sense about him and, his life and his work and his, his legacy, I got all of that from your essay, and I am really compelled to, watch all of his films now, and, you know, I think another reason it, it, it struck a chord again is because like I mentioned, you know, a lot of those ideas are super relevant to this moment we're currently living through, with the role of, technology, either in the form of social media or the AI stuff that I don't really want to get into right now, because [00:44:00] I'll go on about it for a long time.

[00:44:02] JOSH: But, you know, how technology is really mediating our existence. And that sort of transcendent quality of, human life is sort of getting lost or obscured. And I just felt like, there was a book that just came out that's all about the Luddite movement and it, made me realize that, you know, the Luddites were not the anti technology, scaredy cats that we thought, that it was really more about making sure that there was a, role for the human and preserving human dignity When deploying these technologies, and reading your essay, I was kind of viewing Arthur Lipsett as a similar sort of a figure from the past that, you know, needs to be reclaimed and, know, almost used as a, as a rallying cry for

[00:44:58] EMILY STRAND: A prophetic voice, you [00:45:00] know, somebody who's, you know, prophets, prophets weren't people who, who predicted the future. They were just there to say. You know, this is, I've got a message from the divine about what will happen in the future if you continue on the path you're on, you know, and again, it's not, it's not, uh, you know, an oracle of some kind.

[00:45:19] EMILY STRAND: It's, it's, it's, it's a warning. You know, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, just kind of a stark picture of your inevitable future.

[00:45:28] JOSH: Yeah. So, you know,

[00:45:29] EMILY STRAND: he, I get that. I got that vibe from him very much so.

[00:45:34] JOSH: So, so all of this is to say, I don't know if, this has come across enough, but your essay really, struck a chord with me. So, so thank you very much for, for writing it.

[00:45:44] EMILY STRAND: Oh, thank you for considering it deeply as you clearly have. And yes, you can be with me in the Arthur Lipsett fan club.

[00:45:52] JOSH: Okay, great. Um, are there any essays that didn't make the cut that you [00:46:00] wish had

[00:46:01] EMILY STRAND: Hmm. Hmm.

[00:46:03] JOSH: that you miss. Hmm.

[00:46:08] EMILY STRAND: say, you know, yes, yeah, here, I'll talk about one because, uh, so a good friend of mine from, so Amy, Amy teaches for Signum University and Signum is a wonderful place for the study of speculative fiction of all kinds, right? Is that about a good assessment, Amy?

[00:46:26] AMY H. STURGIS: Yes, definitely. Next

[00:46:27] EMILY STRAND: Yes. Yeah. And I, so I've taken many courses there over the years and I've, uh, I made a friend named Jay Moses. He's a, um, Oh, I think he's a Methodist minister. And, um, Jay is great. Uh, Jay and I, obviously we have a lot of ideas in common and things like that. And common senses of humor and common fandoms as well.

[00:46:50] EMILY STRAND: Um, Harry Potter, Star Trek, uh, Star Wars, all that stuff. And so, and, and Jay has gotten, yeah. Um, really involved in the Sikh community in, um, [00:47:00] in his, I know in various places that he's lived. He, with me, shares an interest in the religion of Sikhism or Sikhi. Um, they're the ones who wear the beards and the turbans and the You know, yeah, so it's a really cool religion.

[00:47:13] EMILY STRAND: And so Jay and I are also both fans of of Sakhi. And I really wanted Jay to write an essay about the six and the Jedi and the shared kind of history and and all that stuff. And and poor Jay had to he had to pick up and move kind of in the middle of our book process. He's he I you know, I got I got a promise from him.

[00:47:33] EMILY STRAND: But then he said, Oh, I just don't think I can do it. And so it was going to be a big project. And you know, so that was. That was one essay where I still say, Oh, Jay, you still owe me that essay. You still owe me that. But I would love to, I would, yeah, next time, next time. So, so I'm, I'm still looking forward to that one.

[00:47:52] EMILY STRAND: So, so yes, unfortunately this, the academic process is, is you do, you, there's, you know, some essays get lost along the [00:48:00] way. You always want to pick more than you envision actually publishing in the book. Um, because things happen. I mean, the pandemic was still kind of going on. Um, Uh, when we were editing the books and, um, so, you know, things do get lost in the shuffle, but, but I still hope for, for that, that essay on the six and the Jedi.

[00:48:22] JOSH: Sounds fascinating. I would read that. Yeah.

[00:48:24] EMILY STRAND: Well, I've never seen anything. There's tons of stuff on Buddhism and there's stuff on Hinduism. Um, there's lots of stuff on Christianity. Uh, maybe even there's some stuff out there about Judaism, Judeo Christianity. Um, but I've never seen anything about Sikhi. Um, and, and, and the, and I, and I think there's, yeah, Saint soldiers, you know, guys who are, who are meant to, you know, be religious figures, but then also defend the weak and, and keep the peace.

[00:48:50] EMILY STRAND: You know, I think that's, there's a lot that could be said

[00:48:53] JOSH: Yeah, there's some resonance there for sure.

[00:48:55] JOSH: yeah.

[00:48:56] JOSH: okay, well now I really want to read that essay. So,

[00:48:58] EMILY STRAND: I know, Jay, come on.

[00:49:00][00:49:00]

[00:49:00] JOSH: s Amy, are you a Rogue One fan?

[00:49:03] AMY H. STURGIS: Rogue One is in fact my favorite Star Wars film. So,

[00:49:07] JOSH: That, wow.

[00:49:09] AMY H. STURGIS: that is not, uh, said lightly as someone who has been there since 1977, let me tell you. But yes, I, I am very invested in, in Rogue One and how it shifts the focus. of, uh, of Star Wars storytelling. Absolutely. And everything that goes with it, including, for example, the Guardians of the ille's novel and, uh, manga adaptation, all of that good stuff.

[00:49:33] AMY H. STURGIS: Um, the, the supporting novels, um, Catalyst and all, all of it. Yes. So the short answer, yes.

[00:49:40] EMILY STRAND: And, Andor, Andor.

[00:49:42] AMY H. STURGIS: And, Andor absolutely.

[00:49:43] JOSH: And Andor.

[00:49:45] EMILY STRAND: Josh, you should have seen us scrambling when Andor came out because we were really

[00:49:51] JOSH: write a whole book about that!

[00:49:53] EMILY STRAND: Oh, and, and it will happen. It will happen. But we were really nearing our deadlines, but, but that show [00:50:00] deeply impacted several of the essays. And, um, and it impacted mine. It impacted, um, Vicki Tarrelly's essay on makers, um, and economic issues in Star Wars.

[00:50:13] EMILY STRAND: Um, so, so we, we were scrambling to, to add some analysis from Andor, but we were, our, our publisher was very good and we were able to add some and, but, oh, gosh, that's just a wealth of, of ideas that just need to be. Mind, you know, for the sake of our society, frankly, I mean, there's just so much in there that could really, really help us think more clearly about our situations.

[00:50:38] JOSH: I will have to invite you guys on again to discuss either Rogue One and, or, and, or when, Season 2 comes out. yeah, that, that really, that show, so, so, and Rogue One also, to your, point, Amy, you know, Star Wars The films, I think, rely a lot on the aesthetics of fascism to kind of [00:51:00] communicate the idea that, this is an evil empire and they're really awful and evil. And even things like the destruction of Alderaan in the original Star Wars is kind of an abstraction because you don't actually see it. You see the, the sort of, , 30, 000 foot view, but you don't really see what was lost. You don't really feel, um, whereas Rogue One, what I thought was so effective about Rogue One is that it's, it's, it's really showing you what life is like under the Empire.

[00:51:27] JOSH: And how bad it's occupation,

[00:51:30] AMY H. STURGIS: Occupation on the streets, what daily life is like. Absolutely. I think that's,

[00:51:34] JOSH: and that's also why I loved Andor for the same reason. Right?

[00:51:37] AMY H. STURGIS: Exactly. And seeing everyday people who are just trying to survive on, or ultimately, hopefully reclaim their street, not the galaxy, not overthrow, just, just their street,

[00:51:52] EMILY STRAND: You know,

[00:51:52] EMILY STRAND: Just Rix Road.

[00:51:53] EMILY STRAND: i Exactly. Uh,

[00:51:55] JOSH: I just got goosebumps. I love Andor so much.

[00:51:58] EMILY STRAND: Just, I just finished a rewatch. [00:52:00] I just finished a rewatch. So I'm like, yeah, but like, that's Marv Andor, right? She's just like, just get off my lawn, right?

[00:52:07] JOSH: Yeah.

[00:52:08] EMILY STRAND: of here. You know, we were fine. We were fine without you.

[00:52:12] JOSH: Oh, that show is so good. I will definitely, if you guys are game, I will definitely have to have you back on, to talk some, some Andor and Rogue One. Um, so, uh, where can listeners find your collection? Star Wars: Essays From a Galaxy Far, Far Away, if they're interested in, in picking up a copy and reading it.

[00:52:30] EMILY STRAND: Sure, so it's for sale on our publisher's website, which is Vernon Press. It's also available where books are sold, generally speaking, like Amazon. Um, just a note about the pricing. It is, it's only available in hardcover now. We're hoping for a paperback version that will be a little bit less.

[00:52:48] EMILY STRAND: But the pricing is, um, ebooks are also available, but they're also very expensive because the pricing is Academic pricing and it's, you know, the primary market there is academic institutions [00:53:00] and especially libraries. So, one great way to get a hold of the book if you don't have 91, 87 or something like that to cough up, um, for it is to request that your local library, especially academic library, will purchase the book.

[00:53:16] EMILY STRAND: And, uh, my husband is an academic librarian. He just checked. He said, like, I want to say he, he told me the number of libraries that have purchased our book, which was, I was pleased by that number. I can't remember what it is now, but I was pleased. Um, so, so it could be that your library already has it and it could be that they'll purchase it if you request that they do so.

[00:53:37] JOSH: Very good information.

[00:53:42] AMY H. STURGIS: Yes, in, in,

[00:53:43] JOSH: For a text like this, I have come to really appreciate the electronic version, , just because I make so many highlights.

[00:53:50] EMILY STRAND: Absolutely. I'm the same way.

[00:53:52] JOSH: yeah, and then I love at least with a Kindle, you have a little, text file that has all of your highlights. So it's just all right there and you [00:54:00] can see everything that you, you highlighted.

[00:54:02] JOSH: I have a lot of highlights from this. Um,

[00:54:04] JOSH: uh, Ludo. So,

[00:54:05] EMILY STRAND: technology. Great use. Yeah. Furthers our humanity.

[00:54:09] JOSH: Before we sign off here, is there anything you wanted to mention or anything that I, did not ask about that, you think warrants some, note?

[00:54:19] AMY H. STURGIS: One quick thing for both of the books, the Star Wars and Star Trek books, we were incredibly fortunate to work with artist Emily Austin, who created original artwork, original paintings, and so this beautiful cover here is her original artwork, and I just wanted to give her a shout. She's online with her artwork, but a remarkable and it was a privilege to get to work with her as we were putting the books together to talk to her about the cover

[00:54:48] EMILY STRAND: Yeah, absolutely. When we first kind of got together on this idea to do this, Amy was the one who was like, I don't want our books to be ugly. Sadly, a [00:55:00] lot of academic texts are like, you know, just like kind of just words on a. Green background or something, you know, it's just kind of ugly and like, you know, a lot of them are because it's like the ideas are what, but we were so pleased.

[00:55:12] EMILY STRAND: I mean, beyond what we expected when, when Emily came to us with these, with these, uh, beautiful, beautiful, um, space scapes and, um, so really honored to have. And she's at, um, Emily Austin design. And the only other thing I'll mention is that we both have our websites. I'm at emilystrand. com, so I am, try really hard to keep it up to date. And Amy probably does a better job of keeping hers up to date.

[00:55:42] AMY H. STURGIS: Sturgis dot com.

[00:55:44] JOSH: Do you guys have a new project that you're currently working on, to go on the shelf next to those

[00:55:50] EMILY STRAND: In terms of Star Wars and Star Trek, I, I actually have one more book that released this year. Um, with, it's a companion book to, uh, the podcast that I [00:56:00] co host, which is called Potterversity. And if the name doesn't tell you, it's a, it's an academic, uh, Harry Potter podcast that I host, uh, together with Dr.

[00:56:08] EMILY STRAND: Katie McDaniel. And it's a MuggleNet podcast, and so we just had a book come out with McFarland, which is also, it also has that kind of title, Harry Potter Essays Exploring, uh, uh, Essays Exploring the World of Harry Potter, I'm sorry, Potterversity Essays Exploring the World of Harry Potter. So this is a big year for me and books called Essays Exploring.

[00:56:28] EMILY STRAND: And, um, so, so that's a new thing. But, um, I have another podcast called Meet Father Rivers, which is a podcast about, um, uh, the, um, Music in the Catholic Church and the kind of, um, history of it, uh, in the, especially in the 20th century and onward, that, um, is, it's a little bit of an anti racism project, um, our podcast is, and so we have some, some irons in the fire in terms of, um, a book collection, uh, uh, a book.

[00:56:57] EMILY STRAND: Um, you know, um, a book that is a [00:57:00] collection of essays or, or, or a book, um, yeah, just generally that goes along with the podcast. So, so that's kind of the direction I've been going. Um, but then there's lots of, I've seen lots of great opportunities for, um, there's a Star Wars conference. It's going to be at, at DePaul university on May the 4th next year.

[00:57:16] EMILY STRAND: And so I was thinking about submitting to that. And so there's all, all kinds of cool things going on, but, but no, uh, no, no books on the. on the horizon. Although I do miss sending email, you know, at least seven emails a day to Amy Sturtis. Uh, we don't have anything planned right now.

[00:57:34] JOSH: Well, I mean, strictly speaking, there's nothing stopping you, I suppose.

[00:57:39] EMILY STRAND: That's true. I just sent her, yeah. Hey, here's a picture of my cat.

[00:57:50] AMY H. STURGIS: And I have been working on a project that I'm not quite sure where it's going to land in terms of what it's going to end up with, but it is [00:58:00] related in that it's, it's connected to an essay that I wrote for, for Emily on, uh, on dark academia. And I've just taught a graduate course on dark academia and I've just done a presentation with Sheffield Gothic.

[00:58:14] AMY H. STURGIS: Consuming the gothic conference on dark academia. And there is a project that is developing around to real life missing students, historic missing students who went missing from their campuses and how their cases have been treated in dark academia since then in in novels, in imaginative explorations of what might have happened to them and how that has played out in the conversation being held right now in in dark academia.

[00:58:43] AMY H. STURGIS: It's intersections with the Gothic and with crime, crime novels as well. So that is a project that is wanting to be something

[00:58:51] JOSH: forgive my ignorance, but, what is dark academia?

[00:58:53] AMY H. STURGIS: So [00:59:00] I'm talking about the literary or storytelling tradition as if there is an aesthetic that's related that's, you know, plaid and that sort of thing. And it's related to nostalgia and campuses, but, but, um, but dark academia itself as in terms of storytelling tradition goes back quite a ways. And, uh, can be traced to, to great authors like Donna Tartt and, and Shirley Jackson.

[00:59:23] AMY H. STURGIS: And if you look at it the right way, Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley. And, uh, it's, it's gothic storytelling that's basically set with something related to the project of academia. So students, professors, uh, campuses. Uh, laboratories, libraries, that sort of thing that has a gothic kind of storytelling, a focus on death in some way, whether that's, um, a morbid fascination with death or, uh, taboo, research aimed at thwarting death or even, even things like, um, [01:00:00] social death, uh, in the sense of, of bullying or, or, um, other, other negative things that can happen on campus.

[01:00:06] AMY H. STURGIS: But the heart of dark academia is critique. Of power relationships and really the campus environment creates a pressure cooker situation where we can see what hypocrisy and and power imbalances and inequality, what what they look like, um, in a in a very intense little package, but they're universal. Uh, issues and whether that's bullying of classmates or faculty members misusing their, their authority or secret societies run amok or deaths or missing persons on campus, those sorts of things.

[01:00:44] AMY H. STURGIS: They're all, all, uh, opportunities for, uh, critiquing power structures and. And asking how we can do better. So that's the, that's the thumbnail version, but all Gothic stuff is, is the past coming back to haunt the present, whether that's a [01:01:00] personal past or, or a big large scale past, but the Gothic to me is very much connected to the history of science fiction and you, you, it was a necessary condition for modern science fiction to happen.

[01:01:13] AMY H. STURGIS: And so, uh, I, I

[01:01:14] JOSH: well that's very interesting. I feel like, invoked, uh, Mary Shelley and Frankenstein. I feel like that's sort of the, I don't know, what's the word, it's like the Singularity where those things intersect and and

[01:01:26] JOSH: sort of come

[01:01:28] EMILY STRAND: a

[01:01:28] JOSH: the other end. Yeah, right.

[01:01:30] JOSH: Yes. Yes.

[01:01:31] JOSH: Thank you. That's a better word for that. Um, oh, wow. I might have to start a whole other podcast so I can have you want to talk about that. Well, I feel like I could talk to you both for quite a long time about a whole wide range of subjects.

[01:01:47] EMILY STRAND: I know. Thank you for all the smart questions.

[01:01:50] JOSH: Oh, thank you, thank you so much, I try to give something of substance, I don't always succeed, but I try. But I want to thank both my guests, Emily Strand and Amy H. Sturgis for their time and for their work. And if you liked what you heard, , please follow trashcompod on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube. Transcripts of this episode and all our other episodes are available at trashcompod.com. Links to Emily and Amy's, work and websites will be in the show notes.

[01:02:17] JOSH: And we will see you on the next one.